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Help Over £510 Rail Fine

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furlong

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Nothing do to with the duty solicitor. It should just be a simple phone call (or email or letter) to the court to get them to send you the details of the conviction. Until you have that information everything else is speculation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

WesternLancer has given you the link - start by phoning the Single Justice phone number on that page, see if they can identify the case, and if so ask them
- Which company was the prosecutor? E.g. Northern or LNER
- What was the offence? E.g. breach of byelaw 18. Note down whatever particulars they are able to tell you over the phone such as date, time, location and what the key problem was (e.g. no ticket at all shown or an invalid ticket or an unpaid penalty)
Ask for any reference numbers that you don't already have.
And then most importantly ask for a copy of all the paperwork relating to the case. You want to see the precise charge and evidence including any witness statements.

If the SJS enquiry line can't find it, try the main enquiries line.

Don't lose any more time. Get this done first thing tomorrow.
 
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WesternLancer

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Just to confirm that access to duty solicitor is only something you're entitled to if either (1) you appear in court having been arrested or (2) you are at risk of going to prison. Neither of these applies here. If the passenger wishes to have a solicitor she will need to make other arrangements (and pay for one).
Thanks - helpful to understand this.

I've been assuming / envisaging a young person thinking (as many people would) that if she went down to the court in person you'd get some straightforward clarity about what has happened and what to do about it. But unfortunately it's not like that and by not pursuing things like this in writing you have no easy evidence trails that you can use in future to prove you made efforts to establish the fact (and of course if they are then not responded to properly it allows you to escalate through complaints and ombudsman processes - so it effectively puts the burden of a proper response being required on the court, rather than you looking like you didn't do anything effective to find out what's happened when you tried to do what you thought might work).
At one level its an expensive and quite probably unfair 'life lesson'

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Nothing do to with the duty solicitor. It should just be a simple phone call (or email or letter) to the court to get them to send you the details of the conviction. Until you have that information everything else is speculation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

WesternLancer has given you the link - start by phoning the Single Justice phone number on that page, see if they can identify the case, and if so ask them
- Which company was the prosecutor? E.g. Northern or LNER
- What was the offence? E.g. breach of byelaw 18. Note down whatever particulars they are able to tell you over the phone such as date, time, location and what the key problem was (e.g. no ticket at all shown or an invalid ticket or an unpaid penalty)
Ask for any reference numbers that you don't already have.
And then most importantly ask for a copy of all the paperwork relating to the case. You want to see the precise charge and evidence including any witness statements.

If the SJS enquiry line can't find it, try the main enquiries line.

Don't lose any more time. Get this done first thing tomorrow.
Thanks for adding this helpful, specific info and advice to my suggestion - I hope the OP / daughter can follow this up ASAP.
 

furlong

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Remember the only purpose of this phone call to the court (possibly to be followed up by an email once you have the right reference number) is to find out the facts. It is NOT to discuss what you can do about the situation. (That's probably what went wrong before.) If they start discussing that, just say you're trying to get all the facts together first before you get advice about all your options for trying to put things right.
 

ademac

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perhaps @pedr can post more info about the process for doing an SD that is after the 21 day period? (or as per @Fawkes Cat suggestion) the OP / daughter might wish to consider getting help from a solicitor to do this for them professionally.

This would then allow them to do the next stages (resolve it with the train company without prosecution, with advice from here for free - whatever 'it' is because we can't establish what offence was committed or if the daughter did commit any offence or if false details were given by someone else).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Genuine question why do you conclude that? (though it would be good to rule it out if possible)

We've not seen anything from LNER or the court or any other train company that says the incident relates to this train journey - we only have the OP saying they assume it was this journey (but they also say that originally they assumed it might be a parking fine so I'm not sure we can be confident about this yet at all - beyond of course knowing the OP has sound reason now to say it involves a train company)

@ademac can you answer my previous question about how your daughter knows this?
ie was it someone in the court who has told her this, or did they give her a written copy of the prosecution notice that says this - I am assuming not because if they did you would have got a copy and uploaded it)
She was told by someone at a court in Leeds
 

ademac

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Just to confirm that access to duty solicitor is only something you're entitled to if either (1) you appear in court having been arrested or (2) you are at risk of going to prison. Neither of these applies here. If the passenger wishes to have a solicitor she will need to make other arrangements (and pay for one).
No I see. She requested to see them as someone who was in a somewhat similar position with a rail ticket had suggested to try
 

WesternLancer

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She was told by someone at a court in Leeds
Ok thanks. It’s now time to focus on getting the answers and info as per @furlong s more recent posts I think. Those posts are really clear on how your daughter should engage with the court to get this information.

Posts 61 and 63.

Plus knowing what the forms are. Is it likely your daughter has actually completed a statutory declaration firm?
 

ademac

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Ok thanks. It’s now time to focus on getting the answers and info as per @furlong s more recent posts I think. Those posts are really clear on how your daughter should engage with the court to get this information.

Posts 61 and 63.

Plus knowing what the forms are. Is it likely your daughter has actually completed a statutory declaration firm?
Yes she’s done two statutory declaration Forms now as advised by the front desk of the court after she never heard back from the first one but has never heard back either way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

We will work on some of these suggestions but I suspect we are too late at this point. I can’t thank you all enough for your comments, help, advice etc and we really appreciate the time taken to answer my questions. All I can describe the months that have past since February is like anything she/ we have done has fallen into a black hole never to be responded to again.

I wish I’d found you sooner. If anything positive comes out of this I will, of course, post an update.
 

pedr

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Can she recall the date she completed a statutory declaration form? Did she complete that at the magistrates' court front desk and hand it in there? If so it was probably interpreted as a request to schedule a time to formally make the declaration in front of a magistrate, which ends up in the long list of hearing requests a court has to schedule and can mean a long delay before the court has time for it. If that was relatively timely, the fact that the hearing hasn't been scheduled yet can't be held against your daughter - the court might be able to accept it whenever they are able to schedule it, at which point they'll re-open the case. But if it's been a very long time since that form was completed, something else might have gone wrong (or they might still be sending things to a previous address on file, rather than an address on the form). How long has it been?
 

Tetchytyke

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Yes she’s done two statutory declaration Forms now as advised by the front desk of the court after she never heard back from the first one but has never heard back either way.
Did she retain a copy of the forms? Can she remember where, and when, she submitted the forms? This would be something that could support a further application.
 

WesternLancer

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@ademac Thanks for this update - I'm hoping this is reasonably positive

Some points below further to the important points and questions @pedr has put in post #68 (if you can find out as much as you can from your daughter to answer those it would help us advise on potential next steps and what your daughter can expect to have to do / what might happen)

Yes she’s done two statutory declaration Forms now as advised by the front desk of the court after she never heard back from the first one but has never heard back either way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
It would be helpful if she had copies of these but that may or may not be the case

Did you daughter ensure the court has the correct up to date address for her (possibly a long term permanent address like your family home address, not this years student accommodation address)? It's vital the court have a correct postal address where she can guarantee to receive post safely (and arrangements after end of term eg over xmas etc if at all possible)

If done correctly a Stat Dec (SD) should 'reset the case' - I assume that ultimately that would mean that the attachment of earnings order could be cancelled and money paid refunded and the case then starts again from the beginning. IE your daughter then asked to make a plea in relation to the alleged offence.

Given you have not been able to identify anything that she did wrong with the ticket (and assuming she believes she did nothing wrong) she can make a not guilty plea, and then the case would be heard in the court at a future date where the magistrates would decide if she was actually guilty or not guilty of whatever the charge is (which is why you need the original paperwork associated with the prosecution before (is some time in 2024 presumably) - as per @furlong advice yesterday. If found guilty she would then receive the court fine and other costs - but this is likely to be lower than what she is now paying off by attachment of earnings order (as that probably has other court and bailiffs costs added on).
If found not guilty then of course there is nothing to pay.

What is usually recommended on here with SD forms however is to submit them to the court in such a way that the time before the case is heard is sufficiently long for your daughter to open a discussion with LNER to either settle the matter out of court (in which case a sum of money usually less than a court fine is paid, but there is no criminal record, and LNER do not prosecute in court ie they withdraw the case)
or
Persuade LNER she did nothing wrong and they drop the case / do not prosecute.

Ideally this is where she needs to get to I suspect

I do think it is probably worth writing to LNER (a formal letter to their prosecution section) opening a dialogue with them can do no harm in my view even if not much comes of it yet. Is that something you want help with in terms of what to actually say to them?

We will work on some of these suggestions but I suspect we are too late at this point.
No, not too late if it is just a matter of waiting for the SD forms to be processed, then doing the best thing at each subsequent stage.

I can’t thank you all enough for your comments, help, advice etc and we really appreciate the time taken to answer my questions. All I can describe the months that have past since February is like anything she/ we have done has fallen into a black hole never to be responded to again.

I wish I’d found you sooner. If anything positive comes out of this I will, of course, post an update.
I would recommend you
a) keep this thread updated
b) try to answer the various outstanding question that people have posted that you have not answered yet! (even if your answer is 'I don't know / my daughter does not know' - because then people here can probably explain how to find out)
 
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Haywain

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Persuade LNER she did nothing wrong and they drop the case / do not prosecute.

Ideally this is where she needs to get to I suspect

I do think it is probably worth writing to LNER (a formal letter to their prosecution section) opening a dialogue with them
I don't believe we have yet established that this results from a prosecution brought by LNER and, even if it was, if the case cannot be reopened with the courts there is nothing to be gained from any dialogue with whoever brought the case.
 

WesternLancer

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I don't believe we have yet established that this results from a prosecution brought by LNER and, even if it was, if the case cannot be reopened with the courts there is nothing to be gained from any dialogue with whoever brought the case.
Thanks - noted. But is there anything to be lost by contacting them? At the moment the OP seems to be in the dark about a range of key aspects of what is going on, even if a letter to them elicited a 'this is nothing to do with us' reply then the OP would be aware of more than they seem to be aware of now...
 

Haywain

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As things stand, the matter is nothing to do with them. The priority must be to find out, from the courts, the full details of the prosecution and who brought it, and whether a statutory declaration can be made (or, if it has been, whether it has or has not been granted). I am not an expert in court procedures (like @Puffing Devil) but I can' believe that it isn't possible to find out who brought that prosecution that resulted in your conviction.
 

WesternLancer

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As things stand, the matter is nothing to do with them. The priority must be to find out, from the courts, the full details of the prosecution and who brought it, and whether a statutory declaration can be made (or, if it has been, whether it has or has not been granted). I am not an expert in court procedures (like @Puffing Devil) but I can' believe that it isn't possible to find out who brought that prosecution that resulted in your conviction.
Indeed - though the OP has stated that a person at the court told their daughter (I am assuming verbally) that it was LNER.

Clearly it would be better to get that in writing to be sure, and the OP has had advice up thread on how their daughter can achieve that, but we don't know if they have made any progress on that yet or started to try to do that. Post #13 offered advice on that.
 

Puffing Devil

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@ademac

There is one final option that cuts through the administrative "black hole" you are experiencing. It involves a small cost, but it removes the need for the court to schedule a hearing.

Currently, by handing in the forms at the front desk, the court has likely interpreted this as a request for a hearing to swear the oath. Because courts are backed up, this request is likely sitting in a queue.

You can bypass this queue by having your daughter swear the oath in front of a local solicitor instead. She then posts the completed, sworn legal document to the court, and they are legally obliged to process it.

Download the official "Statutory declaration of ignorance of proceedings" form from the government website here:

Complete the Form using Word & print it off (but DO NOT sign it yet)
She must fill in the case details. For the "Extension of time" section (since it is past the 21 days), she must provide a clear reason. I suggest using this wording:
"I was unaware of the proceedings until an Attachment of Earnings Order was applied to my salary in February 2025. Since then, I have attempted to engage with the court to rectify this. I have already submitted two Statutory Declaration forms to the court office requesting a hearing (on [Insert Date 1] and [Insert Date 2]). Still, I have received no response, no hearing date, and no correspondence. I am now submitting this sworn declaration via a solicitor to resolve the matter without further delay to the court."

Find a local high-street solicitor. Call them and ask if they can "witness a Statutory Declaration for a Magistrate's Court fine."
  • There is a statutory fixed fee for this (often £5 cash), though some may charge a small appointment fee.
  • She must sign the form in front of them. They will stamp and sign it. It is now a legal document.
  • Ask them for a certified copy of the declaration for your records. Again, there will be a small fee for this.
Write a covering letter to go with the form. This ensures the court staff know exactly what to do with it:

Re: Case Number [Insert Case Number]​

To the Court Manager,​
Please find enclosed a sworn Statutory Declaration in relation to the above case.​
As detailed in the declaration, I was unaware of these proceedings until enforcement action began. I have previously attempted to submit this declaration via the court front desk on two occasions, but have received no response.​
A solicitor has now witnessed this document. As a validly sworn Statutory Declaration, I request that the court now accept this, declare the original proceedings void (under s.14 Magistrates' Courts Act 1980), and reset the case to the plea stage.​
Please confirm receipt of this document and the cancellation of the enforcement action by return of post/email.​


Send the SD and the letter to the court by signed for post. Do not just use standard post. You need the tracking proof that it was delivered and signed for. Or hand-deliver it and get a signature on a receipt from the front desk. Do not deliver without a receipt - make your own for them to sign.

Keep a copy of the letter and your copy of the declaration.

If you do this, the court has no "scheduling" decision to make. They have to process the document you have given them.
 

pedr

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The only thing to add to that excellent advice is that (as I understand things, from previous threads here) a Statutory Declaration needs to be accompanied by a plea if it relates to a case brought under the Single Justice Procedure. It is not, necessarily, entirely clear what procedure led to this conviction but it is reasonably likely to have been the SJP. In that case, would it be appropriate to add something to the covering letter such as 'If these proceedings were commenced by Single Justice Procedure Notice, I plead not guilty'?

There's some information about the Statutory Declaration of Ignorance of Proceedings here: https://www.gov.uk/appeal-magistrates-court-decision/if-you-did-not-know-about-your-case
 

Puffing Devil

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In that case, would it be appropriate to add something to the covering letter such as 'If these proceedings were commenced by Single Justice Procedure Notice, I plead not guilty'?
Agreed!
 

MarlowDonkey

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In that case, would it be appropriate to add something to the covering letter such as 'If these proceedings were commenced by Single Justice Procedure Notice, I plead not guilty'?
Even if it isn't known what is the exact accusation?
 

WesternLancer

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@ademac

There is one final option that cuts through the administrative "black hole" you are experiencing. It involves a small cost, but it removes the need for the court to schedule a hearing.

Currently, by handing in the forms at the front desk, the court has likely interpreted this as a request for a hearing to swear the oath. Because courts are backed up, this request is likely sitting in a queue.

You can bypass this queue by having your daughter swear the oath in front of a local solicitor instead. She then posts the completed, sworn legal document to the court, and they are legally obliged to process it.

Download the official "Statutory declaration of ignorance of proceedings" form from the government website here:

Complete the Form using Word & print it off (but DO NOT sign it yet)
She must fill in the case details. For the "Extension of time" section (since it is past the 21 days), she must provide a clear reason. I suggest using this wording:
"I was unaware of the proceedings until an Attachment of Earnings Order was applied to my salary in February 2025. Since then, I have attempted to engage with the court to rectify this. I have already submitted two Statutory Declaration forms to the court office requesting a hearing (on [Insert Date 1] and [Insert Date 2]). Still, I have received no response, no hearing date, and no correspondence. I am now submitting this sworn declaration via a solicitor to resolve the matter without further delay to the court."

Find a local high-street solicitor. Call them and ask if they can "witness a Statutory Declaration for a Magistrate's Court fine."
  • There is a statutory fixed fee for this (often £5 cash), though some may charge a small appointment fee.
  • She must sign the form in front of them. They will stamp and sign it. It is now a legal document.
  • Ask them for a certified copy of the declaration for your records. Again, there will be a small fee for this.
Write a covering letter to go with the form. This ensures the court staff know exactly what to do with it:

Re: Case Number [Insert Case Number]​

To the Court Manager,​
Please find enclosed a sworn Statutory Declaration in relation to the above case.​
As detailed in the declaration, I was unaware of these proceedings until enforcement action began. I have previously attempted to submit this declaration via the court front desk on two occasions, but have received no response.​
A solicitor has now witnessed this document. As a validly sworn Statutory Declaration, I request that the court now accept this, declare the original proceedings void (under s.14 Magistrates' Courts Act 1980), and reset the case to the plea stage.​
Please confirm receipt of this document and the cancellation of the enforcement action by return of post/email.​


Send the SD and the letter to the court by signed for post. Do not just use standard post. You need the tracking proof that it was delivered and signed for. Or hand-deliver it and get a signature on a receipt from the front desk. Do not deliver without a receipt - make your own for them to sign.

Keep a copy of the letter and your copy of the declaration.

If you do this, the court has no "scheduling" decision to make. They have to process the document you have given them.
Thanks for posting this - this looks like the sort of key info/ help @ademac and their daughter need now.

Only thing that occurs to me to ask @Puffing Devil is if this all works ok if it is over the 21 day period mentioned up thread for submitting the SD? As in 21 days after the point at which the daughter became aware of things to the extent they were informed they had been prosecuted without previously being aware (which is probably the date they originally went to the court in Leeds to try and find out what had happened that had lead to the attachment of earnings order, and were told something by the court staff they spoke to).
 

Haywain

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Even if it isn't known what is the exact accusation?
All the more reason, I would have thought. You don't want to plead guilty if you don't know what you're accused of, do you?
 
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pedr

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Even if it isn't known what is the exact accusation?
The system assumes this isn't possible, because by becoming aware of the conviction you should be aware of the particulars of the charge, at least ('that you did, on xth of month at Townsville board a train for travel without having with you a valid ticket' or something similar). The fact that this is not sometimes easy to discern when the primary contact is with fines collection agents doesn't change the criminal procedure rules' requirements. The SD process also requires you to know the date of the court proceeding and which court it was at, which can also be difficult to find out.
 

Hadders

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@Puffing Devil gives some excellent advice.

I agree with stating the intention to plead not guilty. This is for two reasons:

1. If it is a case of mistaken identity then teh OP's daughter would be not guilty
2. If there was a ticketing irregularity then pleading not guilty means the OP's daughter can attempt to negotiate an out of court settlement with LNER (or whichever train company it is) in return for withdrawing the case.
 

ademac

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@ademac

There is one final option that cuts through the administrative "black hole" you are experiencing. It involves a small cost, but it removes the need for the court to schedule a hearing.

Currently, by handing in the forms at the front desk, the court has likely interpreted this as a request for a hearing to swear the oath. Because courts are backed up, this request is likely sitting in a queue.

You can bypass this queue by having your daughter swear the oath in front of a local solicitor instead. She then posts the completed, sworn legal document to the court, and they are legally obliged to process it.

Download the official "Statutory declaration of ignorance of proceedings" form from the government website here:

Complete the Form using Word & print it off (but DO NOT sign it yet)
She must fill in the case details. For the "Extension of time" section (since it is past the 21 days), she must provide a clear reason. I suggest using this wording:
"I was unaware of the proceedings until an Attachment of Earnings Order was applied to my salary in February 2025. Since then, I have attempted to engage with the court to rectify this. I have already submitted two Statutory Declaration forms to the court office requesting a hearing (on [Insert Date 1] and [Insert Date 2]). Still, I have received no response, no hearing date, and no correspondence. I am now submitting this sworn declaration via a solicitor to resolve the matter without further delay to the court."

Find a local high-street solicitor. Call them and ask if they can "witness a Statutory Declaration for a Magistrate's Court fine."
  • There is a statutory fixed fee for this (often £5 cash), though some may charge a small appointment fee.
  • She must sign the form in front of them. They will stamp and sign it. It is now a legal document.
  • Ask them for a certified copy of the declaration for your records. Again, there will be a small fee for this.
Write a covering letter to go with the form. This ensures the court staff know exactly what to do with it:

Re: Case Number [Insert Case Number]​

To the Court Manager,​
Please find enclosed a sworn Statutory Declaration in relation to the above case.​
As detailed in the declaration, I was unaware of these proceedings until enforcement action began. I have previously attempted to submit this declaration via the court front desk on two occasions, but have received no response.​
A solicitor has now witnessed this document. As a validly sworn Statutory Declaration, I request that the court now accept this, declare the original proceedings void (under s.14 Magistrates' Courts Act 1980), and reset the case to the plea stage.​
Please confirm receipt of this document and the cancellation of the enforcement action by return of post/email.​


Send the SD and the letter to the court by signed for post. Do not just use standard post. You need the tracking proof that it was delivered and signed for. Or hand-deliver it and get a signature on a receipt from the front desk. Do not deliver without a receipt - make your own for them to sign.

Keep a copy of the letter and your copy of the declaration.

If you do this, the court has no "scheduling" decision to make. They have to process the document you have given them.
Thank you. We are currently trying to get hold of the documentation prior to the attachment of earnings and are in correspondence with the single justice procedure team at the court. I’ll go through this excellent advice with her too.
 

ademac

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Can she recall the date she completed a statutory declaration form? Did she complete that at the magistrates' court front desk and hand it in there? If so it was probably interpreted as a request to schedule a time to formally make the declaration in front of a magistrate, which ends up in the long list of hearing requests a court has to schedule and can mean a long delay before the court has time for it. If that was relatively timely, the fact that the hearing hasn't been scheduled yet can't be held against your daughter - the court might be able to accept it whenever they are able to schedule it, at which point they'll re-open the case. But if it's been a very long time since that form was completed, something else might have gone wrong (or they might still be sending things to a previous address on file, rather than an address on the form). How long has it been?
The court said they were backlogged and I believe they were emailed in after she had to ring a number the court had given her.
 

WesternLancer

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The court said they were backlogged and I believe they were emailed in after she had to ring a number the court had given her.
so if they were e-mailed in does she have a record of when that e-mail was sent?

But I suspect the most important advice is in post #75 from @Puffing Devil - has your daughter acted on that advice yet? It's a clear course of action she could follow.
As has been mentioned before this really is time critical.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The court said they were backlogged and I believe they were emailed in after she had to ring a number the court had given her.
Hello @ademac - I wondered if you and your daughter had managed to make any progress with any of this so far?
 
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ademac

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so if they were e-mailed in does she have a record of when that e-mail was sent?

But I suspect the most important advice is in post #75 from @Puffing Devil - has your daughter acted on that advice yet? It's a clear course of action she could follow.
As has been mentioned before this really is time critical.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Hello @ademac - I wondered if you and your daughter had managed to make any progress with any of this so far?
Hello, I’m sorry I’ve not been more active here, my father has been very unwell.

We’ve been on the phone to the single justice dept at Leeds court today and we’ve had one lner letter emailed across that had been sent to an old address. We’ve not been given access to any other letters that will have been sent out unfortunately.

Long story short, they denied she had sent the last email within which was her statutory declaration. She pointed out it was sent in October and they miraculously said it had arrived just today while we were on the phone??! Obviously we had proof it was sent back in October so I really don’t know what is going on. We’ve been told in around a week she will receive a date for a new court hearing. So this afternoon my daughter has been printing off proof of ticket, railcard, the strike timetable for that day etc. I’m dubious we will hear anything let alone within a week but we live in hope. I’ll update if any of that happens. As nothing has been responded to so far I’m hesitant that anything will actually happen. Fingers crossed.

Thanking you all, once again for your time and patience with us!
Have a lovely Christmas
 

island

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Long story short, they denied she had sent the last email within which was her statutory declaration.
A statutory declaration cannot be validly made by email. It has to be done on pen and paper, signed in person, before a magistrate, solicitor, or commissioner for oaths, and the original "wet" signed form needs to be taken in person or posted to the court. Whatever you might have sent in the email, it was not a statutory declaration.
 

furlong

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We’ve been on the phone to the single justice dept at Leeds court today and we’ve had one lner letter emailed across that had been sent to an old address. We’ve not been given access to any other letters that will have been sent out unfortunately.

What are the contents of that letter?

Does it contain the details of the charge? If so, could you share that information with us?

You now know that the prosecutor is LNER so if there are still gaps in the information - more letters that they sent but you haven't seen - you can also contact LNER directly to try to obtain copies of them (drpu@lner.co.uk).
 

ademac

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A statutory declaration cannot be validly made by email. It has to be done on pen and paper, signed in person, before a magistrate, solicitor, or commissioner for oaths, and the original "wet" signed form needs to be taken in person or posted to the court. Whatever you might have sent in the email, it was not a statutory declaration.
Oh! Wonderful. The person on the phone today did not point that out and said they had found it.
 
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