Heavy Rail to Oldham again ....feasible?

[Nym]

I woudn't have a new junction station, I would have the route electrified (aswell as all other commuterey routes out of Manchester tbh), If there is space for a big car park on Broadway I would have a station there, stock to run it would be whatever is running in and out of wigan and it would all be terminating at Oldham so I would have a fair amount of slack in the timetable. Primary use of the station would be for terminating services from the West of victoria that wern't terminating at Stalybridge or Rochdale.

Path wise, it's a duplicate of the case on the other side of Victoria. 4 track should cope fine.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Right okay so gathering some thoughts together.....

It'll be a tram with 50 seats every 6 minutes compared to a train with 120 seats every 15 minutes, so just a small increase in seating capacity....

....When people aren't being left behind because a 2 coach pacer can't fit them all on (and not blaming Northern or staff etc here, they do a brilliant job with the cards they're dealt and despite in some cases not even having the space to move from their door panel to the rear cab a few feet away, they're always friendly and professional) then TfGM can take a look at what can be done with disused lines etc.

....Exactly what I mean. Nothing wrong with this frequency and the journey will be far quicker than bus travel.

... But still horrendously longer time-wise than via heavy rail five years before!

I think the word "horrendously" is stretching the truth of the situation somewhat. When the Oldham to Manchester services, operated by Class 142 Pacers, were running from Oldham Mumps, they provided a station provision at Oldham Werneth, Hollinwood, Failsworth, Dean Lane and Manchester Victoria. If you did not live near to these stations, the train service was no use to you and passengers used the bus.

At least the new Metrolink service will provide extra stops that will be useful to commuters in their travel-to-work area. The Metrolink system is a commuter system within the areas of Greater Manchester and should be viewed as such....

If the train and the Metrolink system were of the same frequency, I would totally agree with what you have said, but I think that you have to see this from the view of the commuter....

....Oldham Mumps station was some distance away from the Oldham town-centre bus station, similar to the current situation that exists in Halifax, whereas the Metrolink system will be entering the town centre.

So, it seems a more frequent service with slightly higher total capacity than the overcrowded trains it replaces, calling at more stations, and [probably] charging higher prices, should not be given competition because the more expensive modes of transport might lose out?

I think the actual answer to the question is.....

None, because it's in TfGM's area and it isn't Metrolink. ....

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Had a drive through the Hollinwood area today, I was amazed to see the overheads up already and the Station rebuilt, very fast moving (If only it was the same around Ashton Moss where the 2 Ashton Roads meet, it is chaos.

 

[The Snap]

The costs of total track replacement and electrification along with bridge renewals and additional stops all to be carried out in short night time possessions would have been excessive and have taken even longer to complete. It's not just a case of sticking the wires up, there are years of neglect to rectify.

Indeed. Between Queens Road and Mumps we have just over 50 structures - many of which were in incredibly poor conditions. The tunnels, for example, were horrendous; infact, although now completely safe, they are far from being completely refurbished.

 

[Freel07]

Had a drive through the Hollinwood area today, I was amazed to see the overheads up already and the Station rebuilt, very fast moving (If only it was the same around Ashton Moss where the 2 Ashton Roads meet, it is chaos.

The construction of the Ashton line beyond Droylsden is at least 2 years behind the conversion of the Oldham Line having started earlier this year and probably proceeding faster than the conversion did.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The construction of the Ashton line beyond Droylsden is at least 2 years behind the conversion of the Oldham Line having started earlier this year and probably proceeding faster than the conversion did.

Don't Care Its causing me chaos on the way home, The Metrolink has literally caused a 2 square mile block of complete chaos, very poorly managed and the entry to Ashton (Lord sheldon Way) is now suffering like Droylsden has been for years

 

[Scouseinmanc]

Regeneration is always going to cause some disruption; but if it's too much, you can always choose to live elsewehere...

Sod all the other people who might just benefit from improved infrastructure.

It's this kind of 'I'm not / alright jack' attitude that really does my head in about this country.

 

[Freel07]

Regeneration is always going to cause some disruption; but if it's too much, you can always choose to live elsewehere...

Sod all the other people who might just benefit from improved infrastructure.

It's this kind of 'I'm not / alright jack' attitude that really does my head in about this country.

Here here!

I suspect there may be an element of 'it's not heavy rail so it's bad' in the comments. I have noticed a rather negative attitude towards light rail in the forum. I was about to recommend SSC as a better forum but then noticed who you were, preaching to the converted springs to mind!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Regeneration is always going to cause some disruption; but if it's too much, you can always choose to live elsewehere...

Sod all the other people who might just benefit from improved infrastructure.

It's this kind of 'I'm not / alright jack' attitude that really does my head in about this country.

For your information it was sad Tongue in cheek, secondly the building of the metrolink has been poorly set out from the get go, I have a great idea let's block 2 of the main arteries into a busy town and just leave one and heck while we are at it the main junction from manchester into ashton let's single lane it and watch everyone struggle and that is NOT said in jest!

 

[Scouseinmanc]

For your information it was sad Tongue in cheek, secondly the building of the metrolink has been poorly set out from the get go, I have a great idea let's block 2 of the main arteries into a busy town and just leave one and heck while we are at it the main junction from manchester into ashton let's single lane it and watch everyone struggle and that is NOT said in jest!

The metrolink extensions currently have an effect on most people in Gtr Mcr. I happen to live in south Mcr, where the construction works are going on until 2016.
I completely disagree that this has been poorly set out. You just need to take a look at Edinburgh for that. It's the biggest construction project outside London & imho, I think they're doing a stirling job.
I empathise (to a point) with what you've written, but as I said previously, construction is always going to an cause an element of disruption.
But if you think you could have organised it much better, than maybe you should think of changing your job?
On a brighter note, you shouldn't have to put up with it for too much longer...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The metrolink extensions currently have an effect on most people in Gtr Mcr. I happen to live in south Mcr, where the construction works are going on until 2016.
I completely disagree that this has been poorly set out. You just need to take a look at Edinburgh for that. It's the biggest construction project outside London & imho, I think they're doing a stirling job.
I empathise (to a point) with what you've written, but as I said previously, construction is always going to an cause an element of disruption.
But if you think you could have organised it much better, than maybe you should think of changing your job?
On a brighter note, you shouldn't have to put up with it for too much longer...

All they needed to do was structure the works better, doing it in sections and not all in one go, for example doing lord sheldon way AFTER the ashton new and old road convergence was completed that way there would always be one artery flowing relatively freely instead of the double crawl that it is now, the works have almost destroyed Droylsden as a Town centre as the works around there seems to have gone on for an eternity, regarding the Oldham extension the only people who seemed to want that were the politicians, ask around and that's the impression everyone around oldham gets, they had a very good train service replaced by something that is slower smaller (even tho more frequent) and more expensive

 

[Scouseinmanc]

All they needed to do was structure the works better, doing it in sections and not all in one go, for example doing lord sheldon way AFTER the ashton new and old road convergence was completed that way there would always be one artery flowing relatively freely instead of the double crawl that it is now, the works have almost destroyed Droylsden as a Town centre as the works around there seems to have gone on for an eternity, regarding the Oldham extension the only people who seemed to want that were the politicians, ask around and that's the impression everyone around oldham gets, they had a very good train service replaced by something that is slower smaller (even tho more frequent) and more expensive

OK - as I don't live out in Ashton, I'll just take your word. However, for people in Oldham; this just isn't true. It's only the wingers in the Chronicle that seem to express that view, not Oldhamites as a whole - unless you have asked the vast majority of the population?
They had a 15 minute service & the infrastructure was dire. Come the end of this year / beginning of next, an electrified tramway with a 6 minute frequency, calling at more locations, usage will increase dramatically (as was what happened the Bury & Alty services).

 

[ANorthernGuard]

OK - as I don't live out in Ashton, I'll just take your word. However, for people in Oldham; this just isn't true. It's only the wingers in the Chronicle that seem to express that view, not Oldhamites as a whole - unless you have asked the vast majority of the population?
They had a 15 minute service & the infrastructure was dire. Come the end of this year / beginning of next, an electrified tramway with a 6 minute frequency, calling at more locations, usage will increase dramatically (as was what happened the Bury & Alty services).

As I lived in oldham for the best part of 16 years, I actually do know what the majority of people that I have spoken to think and that is "what's the point" so with the utmost respect I do actually know what I'm talking about, maybe south manchester has welcomed the metrolink with open arms. At this side of manchester they certainly havent

 

[Scouseinmanc]

As I lived in oldham for the best part of 16 years, I actually do know what the majority of people that I have spoken to think and that is "what's the point" so with the utmost respect I do actually know what I'm talking about, maybe south manchester has welcomed the metrolink with open arms. At this side of manchester they certainly havent

I always try & either source my statements, or back it up with fact.

I seriously doubt you've asked 103,500 people their opinion!!

 

[Nym]

so when this demand skyrockets there won't be the stock because the trams are smaller, and they'll need to order more, order centre carrages and lengthen platforms...?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I always try & either source my statements, or back it up with fact.

I seriously doubt you've asked 103,500 people their opinion!!

Nope I asked a selection of the population just like any poll or questionnaire etc. And I have stated the majority of the people I asked don't see the need but heck you go and ask the entire population of oldham and we will see who is the most accurate!

 

[Scouseinmanc]

so when this demand skyrockets there won't be the stock because the trams are smaller, and they'll need to order more, order centre carrages and lengthen platforms...?

No, not really.

As I stated earlier, just look at the Bury - Alty services

 

[ANorthernGuard]

No, not really.

As I stated earlier, just look at the Bury - Alty services

Overcrowded, delayed quite regularly and expensive you mean?

 

[Scouseinmanc]

Overcrowded, delayed quite regularly and expensive you mean?

And the train isn't delayed, overcrowded or expensive.

Dear god...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

And the train isn't delayed, overcrowded or expensive.

Dear god...

Its very rare we leave people on platforms tho and if there is a delay we can usually work round it (crossovers, loops etc) and we are definetly cheaper than the tram. Next...

 

[Scouseinmanc]

Its very rare we leave people on platforms tho and if there is a delay we can usually work round it (crossovers, loops etc) and we are definetly cheaper than the tram. Next...

Jeez pal, just take a chill pill.

You came out with a completely flippant statement & I argued otherwise.

This has turned into a tram vs train debate - one of which I do not care for.

You still have not based any of your argument with fact, just your own say so...

A more constructive response would have been the best way fwd...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Jeez pal, just take a chill pill.

You came out with a completely flippant statement & I argued otherwise.

This has turned into a tram vs train debate - one of which I do not care for.

You still have not based any of your argument with fact, just your own say so...

A more constructive response would have been the best way fwd...

In other words I disagreed with you and you didn't like it, difference is as I lived in oldham until very recently and actually have spoken to Oldhamers about it, the basis of your argument seems to be other lines, well Oldham and Tameside are not bury and altrincham, the tram concept is an excellent idea but just because it works in one place does not mean it will work in another, oldham lost a damn good train service, oldhamers are not happy about that, Droylsden has lost
Quite a few businesses because of the works, it should bring money into Ashton but the planning of the works could have been so much better

 

[Scouseinmanc]

In other words I disagreed with you and you didn't like it, difference is as I lived in oldham until very recently and actually have spoken to Oldhamers about it, the basis of your argument seems to be other lines, well Oldham and Tameside are not bury and altrincham, the tram concept is an excellent idea but just because it works in one place does not mean it will work in another, oldham lost a damn good train service, oldhamers are not happy about that, Droylsden has lost
Quite a few businesses because of the works, it should bring money into Ashton but the planning of the works could have been so much better

No NorthernGuard, you stated how much the tram works put YOU out & I certainly didn't diisagree with you, I stated that it was an 'Im alright Jack' statement to make, which YOU took a dislike to!

Opinions are like arseholes, we've all got one, but most of them stink...

I'm very sorry to the regulars, who had to endure our ranting, so I think this one is best going back on topic.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

No NorthernGuard, you stated how much the tram works put YOU out & I certainly didn't diisagree with you, I stated that it was an 'Im alright Jack' statement to make, which YOU took a dislike to!

Opinions are like arseholes, we've all got one, but most of them stink...

I'm very sorry to the regulars, who had to endure our ranting, so I think this one is best going back on topic.

Agreed, my 1st reply was said tongu in cheek and the topic has gone a bit daft, so agreed we will call it a day

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The metrolink extensions currently have an effect on most people in Gtr Mcr. I happen to live in south Mcr, where the construction works are going on until 2016.

Have you ever been around Wythenshawe recently and seen all the relocation of services that is happening as a result of the construction of the Metrolink line to Manchester Airport that is due for completion in 2016. I was recently speaking to a site engineer from one of the utility companies at a meeting and he said that these Metrolink works were a "heaven-sent" opportunity to renew all the services infrastructure in that area, noting that Wythenshawe had much of this installed a long time ago.

I am pleased to see that "peace has broken out" in the somewhat acrimonious debate that has just ensued. It is just a discussion forum debate....not a replay of a "Cold War" dispute between the USSR and the USA. :roll:

 

[Freel07]

Its very rare we leave people on platforms tho and if there is a delay we can usually work round it (crossovers, loops etc) and we are definetly cheaper than the tram. Next...

You obviously don't work trains on the Victoria to Huddersfield Line if you think that. Your colleagues regularly have to leave people behind at Ashton travelling into Manchester and at Victoria travelling east. Northerns services are very poor and the standards of train presentation are pathetic, the Metrolink operator would be paying heavy penalties to TfGM if their trams were as dirty as Northern's units and if the level of revenue protection provided by on train staff was a low as Northern's is. I know Metrolink is far from perfect and that it's development is causing disruption to people but in general in my experience local train services are far worse.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

You obviously don't work trains on the Victoria to Huddersfield Line if you think that. Your colleagues regularly have to leave people behind at Ashton travelling into Manchester and at Victoria travelling east. Northerns services are very poor and the standards of train presentation are pathetic, the Metrolink operator would be paying heavy penalties to TfGM if their trams were as dirty as Northern's units and if the level of revenue protection provided by on train staff was a low as Northern's is. I know Metrolink is far from perfect and that it's development is causing disruption to people but in general in my experience local train services are far worse.

Trams clean?? since when?? some are older than some of Northern's Stock, The new ones are nice tho and i'm sure the public will keep them like that

No I don't do the Vic to Huddersfield Corridor, However I know many people that Do and I have used it to get to work myself on occasion, yes it can be extremely busy and sometimes there can be the odd few that get left behing at Ashton although it is a rarity but as all the money TfGM have seems to go towards Trams it is hardly surprising Northern do not have enough stock to "double up" when needed, when was the last time you tried driving from manchester towards Ashton during peak Times???, Please do have a go and then shrug at the disruption that the Poorly planned building of the metrolink has caused and tell all the people that rely on the roads (not everyone can use Public Transport) that its worth it, I have a darn good Idea what they will say to you!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
and I'm going to call it a day now on this subject I have said all that I will on it as I don't want it to go down the same road as the previous one.

 

[Scouseinmanc]

Have you ever been around Wythenshawe recently and seen all the relocation of services that is happening as a result of the construction of the Metrolink line to Manchester Airport that is due for completion in 2016. I was recently speaking to a site engineer from one of the utility companies at a meeting and he said that these Metrolink works were a "heaven-sent" opportunity to renew all the services infrastructure in that area, noting that Wythenshawe had much of this installed a long time ago.

I am pleased to see that "peace has broken out" in the somewhat acrimonious debate that has just ensued. It is just a discussion forum debate....not a replay of a "Cold War" dispute between the USSR and the USA. :roll:

Hi Paul

Not to Wythenshawe, but I can well imagine... I actually live not far from St Werburgh's Rd (if you know it) & this is the junction stop for both the Didsbury & Airport lines.

At present, they've demolished all the trees near to the Barlow Moor Rd & Nell Lane road junctions, with alsorts of traffic management being deployed, so it has an effect on my daily commute to & from work.

I happen to work very closely with all utility companies in the UK as part of my job, so I can imagine the joy at Electricity North West's / United Utilities' offices, at all the utility diversions they have going on in & around Manchester (££££'s...). As the man you met said, it's actually heaven sent. Replacing all their old, victorian infrastructure whilst the met works take place, as opposed to digging up the roads again sometime in the future, will benefit everyone in the long term.

But, as I said before, we've gone way off topic..

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But, as I said before, we've gone way off topic..

I tend to agree that the line of discussion in the original posting by 185 has strayed somewhat from heavy rail in Oldham to Metrolink in South Manchester and future postings should reflect the original matter, so I am glad to see you make this point. I have sent a PM to you about "matters Metrolink".

 

[The Snap]

Have you ever been around Wythenshawe recently and seen all the relocation of services that is happening as a result of the construction of the Metrolink line to Manchester Airport that is due for completion in 2016. I was recently speaking to a site engineer from one of the utility companies at a meeting and he said that these Metrolink works were a "heaven-sent" opportunity to renew all the services infrastructure in that area, noting that Wythenshawe had much of this installed a long time ago.

I am pleased to see that "peace has broken out" in the somewhat acrimonious debate that has just ensued. It is just a discussion forum debate....not a replay of a "Cold War" dispute between the USSR and the USA. :roll:

Hi Paul

Not to Wythenshawe, but I can well imagine... I actually live not far from St Werburgh's Rd (if you know it) & this is the junction stop for both the Didsbury & Airport lines.

At present, they've demolished all the trees near to the Barlow Moor Rd & Nell Lane road junctions, with alsorts of traffic management being deployed, so it has an effect on my daily commute to & from work.

I happen to work very closely with all utility companies in the UK as part of my job, so I can imagine the joy at Electricity North West's / United Utilities' offices, at all the utility diversions they have going on in & around Manchester (££££'s...). As the man you met said, it's actually heaven sent. Replacing all their old, victorian infrastructure whilst the met works take place, as opposed to digging up the roads again sometime in the future, will benefit everyone in the long term.

But, as I said before, we've gone way off topic..

I tend to agree that the line of discussion in the original posting by 185 has strayed somewhat from heavy rail in Oldham to Metrolink in South Manchester and future postings should reflect the original matter, so I am glad to see you make this point. I have sent a PM to you about "matters Metrolink".

It's true that the utility companies have taken advantage of the MPT works to renew their services. It was a tradition of the Victorians to put services (particularly the swears at that time) in the middle of roads; now that may have been a great idea a century ago but nowadays it's just inconvenient!!

UU and ENWL have moved their services into the pavements now, which I understand is commonplace in the European, more modern infrastructures. This should reduce the need to dig up the roads in the future, which is surely good news for all!

Another comment was made earlier in this thread by someone who noted that the ORL conversion seems to be taking longer in comparison to the progress made on the Ashton Line. It’s worth noting that converting a railway that’s around 100 years old with over 80 structures to repair, refurbish or rebuild takes a significant amount of time compared to pulling up tarmac and laying rails in concrete foundations on a bed of compacted stone. Visible/visual progress on the Ashton Line, therefore, is clearly going to be much quicker .