Heavy Rail to Oldham again ....feasible?

[185]

Just a thought that when Metrolink finally diverts into Oldham Town Centre, what would be the chance of reopening the old 1960 (2.5km) line from Oldham Werneth to Middleton Junction?

When the trams divert, the newly disused Werneth tunnels could then provide a route for a proper train service right through from Oldham Mumps-Werneth-Middleton Jn-Moston-Manchester Vic, taking the weight off Metrolink.

I think 2.5km is not a massive undertaking, and I assume the only reason why TfGM have failed to notice it is because of their obsession with trams.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This point came up in a posting on a thread about four months ago. Whilst the line route from Middleton Junction to A663(T) at Broadway is fairly clear, there has been a fair amount of housing built over the route of the line from there to Oldham Werneth, all of which is on that notorious line gradient.

 

[tbtc]

Does Metrolink need "the weight taking off it", since we don't know what the loadings will be like?

Isn't it a tram every six minutes (compared to a Pacer every fifteen minutes a few years ago)?

 

[Nym]

1) Yes there will be demand, especially if it provides through services by means of using Oldham to terminate Diesel services inbound from the West of Victoria.

2) I thought the housing development was further up broadway on the old goods station, with the line through from Wenrith kept clear, certanly looked that way whenever I was driving past that way but I remain to be corrected on that, but if it is reasonably clear I do think it would be a good place to have a route

Also, having Oldham set up as a station to terminate Diesel services from Wigan and Bolton would be a brilliant idea as it would mean less having to go on to Stalybridge and other stations around the area such as Rochdale where there isn't any space for bays or Ashbrys that wouldn't exactly provide many through opertunities and the paths would be crossing more than sending it up to Moston and onto Oldham.

EDIT: At a push it would also be reasonably possible to re-open the route from Ashton Under Lyne to Oldham, providing a similar level of service improvment, would definatly need 4 track to Ashton U Lyne though if that where to happen, with TPE services running on dedicated fasts.

 

[Scouseinmanc]

I think that's a great idea.

A stop could be provided at Broadway for Chadderton & Middleton Jcn reopened.

My only concern would be the conflicting movements of the trams crossing the heavy rail lines to access the town centre. Unless Werneth was relocated to the the East of Denton Road.

 

[northwichcat]

Does Metrolink need "the weight taking off it", since we don't know what the loadings will be like?

Isn't it a tram every six minutes (compared to a Pacer every fifteen minutes a few years ago)?

It'll be a tram with 50 seats every 6 minutes compared to a train with 120 seats every 15 minutes, so just a small increase in seating capacity

When the Altrincham line went to a tram every 6 minutes at peak times instead of heavy rail it was a big decrease in seating capacity. As under BR there was a Chester-Altrincham-Sale-Manchester service operated by a 4 car DMU every 20 minutes as a semi-fast, with a 4 car EMU running in between each of these services calling at all stations.

 

[Jonfun]

Just a thought that when Metrolink finally diverts into Oldham Town Centre, what would be the chance of reopening the old 1960 (2.5km) line from Oldham Werneth to Middleton Junction?

None, because it's in TfGM's area and it isn't Metrolink. Seriously though, I personally believe the powers that be need to get capacity improvements (both paths and seating capacity) on services to places like Stalybridge and Rochdale before they could even think twice about giving Oldham, which has just had all this dubious "investment", more services.
When people aren't being left behind because a 2 coach pacer can't fit them all on (and not blaming Northern or staff etc here, they do a brilliant job with the cards they're dealt and despite in some cases not even having the space to move from their door panel to the rear cab a few feet away, they're always friendly and professional) then TfGM can take a look at what can be done with disused lines etc.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Here's an idea - how about a heavy rail line from Rochdale, Shaw and Oldham to Manchester via Hollinwood? Oh, no, wait

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If there was both train and Metrolink provision to Oldham from Manchester, the passenger loadings available to either of these would suffer as a result of the presence of the other. The Metrolink system is in the process of construction and is a fact of life that the existing bus operators have to accept. The addition of a rail service, giving three modes of public transport, would only aggravate the current passenger loading situation.
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It'll be a tram with 50 seats every 6 minutes

Exactly what I mean. Nothing wrong with this frequency and the journey will be far quicker than bus travel.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Exactly what I mean. Nothing wrong with this frequency and the journey will be far quicker than bus travel.

... But still horrendously longer time-wise than via heavy rail five years before!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

... But still horrendously longer time-wise than via heavy rail five years before!

I think the word "horrendously" is stretching the truth of the situation somewhat. When the Oldham to Manchester services, operated by Class 142 Pacers, were running from Oldham Mumps, they provided a station provision at Oldham Werneth, Hollinwood, Failsworth, Dean Lane and Manchester Victoria. If you did not live near to these stations, the train service was no use to you and passengers used the bus.

At least the new Metrolink service will provide extra stops that will be useful to commuters in their travel-to-work area. The Metrolink system is a commuter system within the areas of Greater Manchester and should be viewed as such.

The train service, as proposed at the start of this thread, follows a route that runs from Middleton Junction to Oldham Werneth. I cannot see a heavy passenger flow over that particular route, when viewed in comparison to the Metrolink route that shadows the heavy traffic flows that ensue along the A62 corridor into Manchester.

 

[northernrail]

Living practicly on the disused line, we followed it up a few weeks ago, theres still some old railway infrastructre left, just one problem, getting from Middleton Junction to where the Branch Line remains...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think the word "horrendously" is stretching the truth of the situation somewhat. When the Oldham to Manchester services, operated by Class 142 Pacers, were running from Oldham Mumps, they provided a station provision at Oldham Werneth, Hollinwood, Failsworth, Dean Lane and Manchester Victoria. If you did not live near to these stations, the train service was no use to you and passengers used the bus.

At least the new Metrolink service will provide extra stops that will be useful to commuters in their travel-to-work area. The Metrolink system is a commuter system within the areas of Greater Manchester and should be viewed as such.

The train service, as proposed at the start of this thread, follows a route that runs from Middleton Junction to Oldham Werneth. I cannot see a heavy passenger flow over that particular route, when viewed in comparison to the Metrolink route that shadows the heavy traffic flows that ensue along the A62 corridor into Manchester.

So how long will it take, on average, the fastest tram to get from Oldham, a town of 120,000 people, to Manchester, 8 or so miles away? Heavy rail managed it sub-25 mins twice an hour...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Heavy rail managed it sub-25 mins twice an hour...

If the train and the Metrolink system were of the same frequency, I would totally agree with what you have said, but I think that you have to see this from the view of the commuter. As you say above, this is 2tph, whereas the proposed Metrolink is every 6 minutes = 10 trams per hour. Miss a train and there was a 30 minute wait for the next one, whereas miss a tram and there is only a 6 minute wait for the next one.

You have to take this frequency comparison into consideration, plus the fact that the Metrolink is still quite a quick system in comparison to the present bus routes. People have short memories and the only thing that they will see is a new method of commuting in comparison to the bus. The old heavy-rail system is no more and will soon fade out of memory of the average commuter, rather than the train enthusiasts, as the Metrolink system will be using most of the original route.

There have been many postings about heavy rail and tram-train returning to the Altrincham to Manchester line, via Sale, in lieu of the existing Metrolink system, but I cannot see any hard and fast proposals for this reversal of this mode of transport. However, if TfGM have made any pronouncements on this future change of mode, I would be pleased to hear of them.

Oldham Mumps station was some distance away from the Oldham town-centre bus station, similar to the current situation that exists in Halifax, whereas the Metrolink system will be entering the town centre.

 

[HSTEd]

It seems to me to be a waste of quite a significant amount of infrastructure in the Oldham area (those tunnels/viaducts) but then I suppose this is progress.
Edit:

Why does Phase 3A take so long? Surely they could have done most of the OLE works or similar whiel the line was still open to heavy rail vehicles?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If the train and the Metrolink system were of the same frequency, I would totally agree with what you have said, but I think that you have to see this from the view of the commuter. As you say above, this is 2tph, whereas the proposed Metrolink is every 6 minutes = 10 trams per hour. Miss a train and there was a 30 minute wait for the next one, whereas miss a tram and there is only a 6 minute wait for the next one.

You have to take this frequency comparison into consideration, plus the fact that the Metrolink is still quite a quick system in comparison to the present bus routes. People have short memories and the only thing that they will see is a new method of commuting in comparison to the bus. The old heavy-rail system is no more and will soon fade out of memory of the average commuter, rather than the train enthusiasts, as the Metrolink system will be using most of the original route.

There have been many postings about heavy rail and tram-train returning to the Altrincham to Manchester line, via Sale, in lieu of the existing Metrolink system, but I cannot see any hard and fast proposals for this reversal of this mode of transport. However, if TfGM have made any pronouncements on this future change of mode, I would be pleased to hear of them.

Oldham Mumps station was some distance away from the Oldham town-centre bus station, similar to the current situation that exists in Halifax, whereas the Metrolink system will be entering the town centre.

Oldham-Manchester was 4tph, two non-stop (which I listed), 2 all shacks.

I'm sorry, but I can't get around the logic of the closure / conversion of the Oldham Loop, it just defies sense to me; it seems to be based on a desperation to expand the network (as with the pointless MediaCityUK branch).

Also, Halifax? It's not that far! 5 minute walk tops last time I was there.

 

[WestCoast]

Metrolink is a way that TfGM can invest in the line directly and ensure their investment stays there - new 'stock'. If it remained in National Rail hands, then any stock TfGM bought for Northern would probably end up elsewhere.:roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Also, Halifax? It's not that far! 5 minute walk tops last time I was there.

Matt, I think for the sake of this thread that we agree to disagree on this matter of the Oldham to Manchester past, present and future provision, as a fait accompli has ensued. The 2tph that you quoted that were non-stop were useless to the commuters waiting at any intermediate stations.

Halifax station is a victim of its own situation due to the geographical nature of the terrain, but I am old enough to have used both Oldham Central and Oldham Clegg Street which were far more central to the town centre than either Oldham Werneth or Oldham Mumps.

 

[WatcherZero]

Why does Phase 3A take so long? Surely they could have done most of the OLE works or similar whiel the line was still open to heavy rail vehicles?

They renewed the track bed and drainage and replaced all the track as well as the electrification.

 

[radamfi]

I suppose the best way to judge the heavy rail vs tram argument is in patronage level. Will more people use the tram to Oldham than the old Oldham Loop train?

How does patronage on the Bury and Altrincham lines compare to the pre-tram days? Obviously you would have to take into account patronage growth that might have happened if the heavy rail lines had stayed and the trains replaced. The Bury line probably would have had overheads installed anyway as the third rail system was not standard.

 

[tbtc]

It'll be a tram with 50 seats every 6 minutes compared to a train with 120 seats every 15 minutes, so just a small increase in seating capacity

A fifteen minute service at the stations that the "fast" Pacers stopped at, but (as has been mentioned by others) only certain stations got that.

Regardless, we need to see whether the Metrolink is more popular than the Pacers before we are in a position to judge whether additional trams are needed, or reopening an old Heavy Rail line into the town.

under BR there was a Chester-Altrincham-Sale-Manchester service operated by a 4 car DMU every 20 minutes

The service to Chester was every twenty minutes?

Didn't realise

 

[Nym]

Yet now it's 1tph and thats seen as enough! I know it's not on topic at all but the Mid Cheshire line does need more on it...

 

[185]

The problem with Cheshire is the local authority doesn't believe the direct relationship between good, effiicient public transport and reduced road congestion. They won't part-fund and back better rail or a Metrolink extension until hell freezes over.

 

[Bevan Price]

Oldham railways are an example of lost opportunities. Ideally, Oldham (Glodwick Road) to Greenfield should have been used as part of a cross-pennine route, with some fast services running Manchester - Oldham - Huddersfield - Leeds. Instead, it was used as a branch with erratic services to Delph, plus at times one or two stopping trains to Greenfield & Huddersfield, with occasional connections at Greenfield for the Huddersfield line. Unfortunately, it is now too late for that ever o materialise.

 

[tbtc]

The problem with Cheshire is the local authority doesn't believe the direct relationship between good, effiicient public transport and reduced road congestion. They won't part-fund and back better rail or a Metrolink extension until hell freezes over.

Yeah, its one thing for people to criticise Greater Manchester for spending their money on trams, but at least they are investing their money on something in their area (in the way that West Yorkshire spends money on train services).

Other councils, on the other hand...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Oldham railways are an example of lost opportunities. Ideally, Oldham (Glodwick Road) to Greenfield should have been used as part of a cross-pennine route, with some fast services running Manchester - Oldham - Huddersfield - Leeds. Instead, it was used as a branch with erratic services to Delph, plus at times one or two stopping trains to Greenfield & Huddersfield, with occasional connections at Greenfield for the Huddersfield line. Unfortunately, it is now too late for that ever to materialise.

The passenger service which was originally part of the London and North Western Railway as a competing route to the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway route to Oldham, closed in 1955, quite a few years before "The Beeching Cuts" and covered the stations at Oldham Clegg Street (adjacent to Oldham Central), Oldham Glodwick Road (a short distance from Oldham Mumps), Lees. Grotton & Springhead, Grasscroft, before joining the Huddersfield line south of Greenfield station. There was a locomotive shed at Lees (26F) and freight services still used the line until 1964.

I think that you have to ask yourself what were the reasons why British Railways withdrew the passenger services nearly ten years prior to the closures effected by the Beeching Report cuts in the 1960's. Before this line was closed to passenger services in 1955, Oldham was served by no less than five town centre stations and three of these on the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway route all existed until Oldham Central closed in the 1960's period. Many towns had services that were operated by different railway companies in Victorian days, but from the 1948 grouping onwards, British Railways began to apply the "rationalisation" process into such situations. In the case of Oldham, it was seen only as a town on the "loop line" to Rochdale. whereas the Stalybridge to Greenfield line was deemed to be the main line route, capable of meeting the passenger and freight flows projected at that time.
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So how long will it take, on average, the fastest tram to get from Oldham.

Whilst knowing that the timetabling of Metrolink on the Oldham to Manchester line would not yet be a priority for the Metrolink team at TfGM, I did telephone them to ask this question in general terms on your behalf (stating that you were not from the TfGM area), but was told that matters such as this were not being considered at the present moment in time, for public consumption.

 

[exile]

The passenger service which was originally part of the London and North Western Railway as a competing route to the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway route to Oldham, closed in 1955, quite a few years before "The Beeching Cuts" and covered the stations at Oldham Clegg Street (adjacent to Oldham Central), Oldham Glodwick Road (a short distance from Oldham Mumps), Lees. Grotton & Springhead, Grasscroft, before joining the Huddersfield line south of Greenfield station. There was a locomotive shed at Lees (26F) and freight services still used the line until 1964.

I think that you have to ask yourself what were the reasons why British Railways withdrew the passenger services nearly ten years prior to the closures effected by the Beeching Report cuts in the 1960's. Before this line was closed to passenger services in 1955, Oldham was served by no less than five town centre stations and three of these on the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway route all existed until Oldham Central closed in the 1960's period. Many towns had services that were operated by different railway companies in Victorian days, but from the 1948 grouping onwards, British Railways began to apply the "rationalisation" process into such situations. In the case of Oldham, it was seen only as a town on the "loop line" to Rochdale. whereas the Stalybridge to Greenfield line was deemed to be the main line route, capable of meeting the passenger and freight flows projected at that time.
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The Oldham loop was ALWAYS seen as a secondary route even in L and Y days. The LMS made no attempt to provide a fast service from Oldham to Huddersfield/Leeds. The lines mentioned were closed in the 50s because, essentially, no-one used them, being scarcely quicker than the buses and rather more expensive.

Whilst knowing that the timetabling of Metrolink on the Oldham to Manchester line would not yet be a priority for the Metrolink team at TfGM, I did telephone them to ask this question in general terms on your behalf (stating that you were not from the TfGM area), but was told that matters such as this were not being considered at the present moment in time, for public consumption.

Bury to Victoria (9.9 miles) takes 23 minutes. It would be reasonable to assume that an Oldham to Victoria tram would take 20 minutes or so for the 8 miles. That, and the greater frequency, and more intermediate stops, should provide on the whole a better service than existed before closure.

Both the Bury and Altrincham lines have much greater patronage than existed when they were heavy rail.

 

[HSTEd]

As the Stage 3A route is entirely grade seperated it is essentially an electric railway with a rather low top speed, so it will have vastly superior acceleration to a Pacer set and as such should be able to make up the time lost due to the lower to speed, even with all the additional stops.

That is assuming a pacer ever gets past 50 miles per hour between Oldham and Manchester with all the stations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just for a moment, assuming a heavy-rail route from Middleton Junction to Oldham Werneth was made possible, would units that have good climbing ability be required to travel up that steep incline be essential for service reliability. I know that the Class 185 units would have no problem, but they are far to precious to spare to run "short-hop" routes, so what type of currently available unit would be suitable for that section and its gradient?

I am also thinking ahead to the Ordsall Chord provision, when there will be many more train movements from Manchester Victoria as far as Miles Platting junction and with this in mind, is there enough path availability available on the Manchester Victoria to Middleton Junction section now to allow such a heavy-rail service as proposed to Oldham, as no-one has stated the service provision requirements. Would a new junction station be opened again at Middleton Junction?

Quite a few points here to ponder.

 

[Freel07]

Why does Phase 3A take so long? Surely they could have done most of the OLE works or similar whiel the line was still open to heavy rail vehicles?

The costs of total track replacement and electrification along with bridge renewals and additional stops all to be carried out in short night time possessions would have been excessive and have taken even longer to complete. It's not just a case of sticking the wires up, there are years of neglect to rectify.