Heathrow terminal 1,2,3 unfriendly

[joncombe]

Last night I was trying to return from Heathrow airport. Usually I use the "Rail Air" coach from Heathrow Central Bus station to Woking (though it seems to be National Express rather than RailAir these days).

However the first coach was advertised as late (but never arrived) and the second did arrive (late) but then didn't return to Woking as the driver would then be over his hours (I was told the M25 was closed, which was why many of the coaches were disrupted) and they couldn't find another driver.

So having given up on National Express/RailAir I decided the best bet was to go to London, then across to Waterloo. Not wanting to use the Heathrow Express (too expensive) I decided it was a choice of the Picadilly line or Heathrow Connect (which I see is now TFL rail, but anyway), so I'd go to the station first to see when the next TFL Rail train was due.

I hadn't realised quite how far the rail station is from the tube and bus station along a very long corridor (with two traveloators). However having reached the ticket hall I was surprised to find that there wasn't a ticket office, but more surprising there wasn't even a departure board, so I couldn't see when the next train was due. So I asked a member of staff who told me it was in about 7 minutes.

So then I tried to buy a ticket. There was no ticket office and the staff around were only selling Heathrow Express, so I opted to use the machine. However on selecting Woking as the destination, it told me there were no fares available. I tried another machine, in case it was a machine fault, with the same result. So I ended up buying a ticket to London Paddington.

Just as I had entered my PIN, the same member of staff came over and told me they had made a mistake, the next train was only 2 minutes away. I rushed down the escalators (there are 3, the last of which was broken). On reaching the platform I was then stopped by a member of staff who told me "that isn't the right train, that's the stopping train". I told him that was the one I wanted and he let me passed, but the train was stopped right at the far end of the platform and I couldn't get there before it left. (to be fair, I'd have missed it anyway even if he hadn't stopped me, but still).

As the next train was half an hour away I asked the same member of staff (that stopped me), if I could now get a refund on my ticket since I was now facing a 30 minute wait and so it would be quicker to take the Picadilly line. He told me that wasn't possible at the station I'd have to send the ticket to TFL, along with an explanation of why I wanted a refund. He told me that if I told them I had been given incorrect information before buying the ticket (as I had been) there would be no problem (we shall see).

So heading back up to the ticket hall having decided not to travel by train I tried to use my ticket to get out the ticket barrier. Of course it didn't work because it was a single *from* Heathrow not too. I tried to show my ticket to a member of staff and asked to be let out, but she insisted I put it through the barrier again and show her it didn't work, before she would let me out!

I did eventually get to Waterloo where of course I found SWR were having one of their all too frequent service meltdowns, but that is another issue.

So this left me wondering a few things.

1. I always thought National Rail stations (of which this is one) were obliged to offer tickets to all destinations. But it seemed the ticket machines and staff would only sell tickets to London. Is that permitted? Or should I report it?
2. Is it correct passengers are expected to buy tickets first before they can find out when the next train is (since the only information screens seem be at platform level)? I've never before come across a station where there are ticket barriers and no displays before the barriers.
3. Why do the TFL rail trains stop at the far end of the platform (leaving the part by the entrance to the station empty), whilst the Heathrow Express stops so the carriages are alongside the entrance? I am wondering if it is yet another attempt to "encourage" the use of the expensive HEX service over the TFL rail.
4. I always thought you were entitled to a refund if you decided not to travel, the ticket was entirely unused and you returned it to the same office you bought it from (apart from Advance fares), but the staff disputed this. Where they correct?
   
5. Why do they seemingly employ staff who assume no one would want to catch the TFL Rail trains and try to stop you boarding them?

I also notice the National Rail page about Heathrow says there is a ticket office, but the location is "Various locations around the station", so I can only assume the "ticket office" is actually the stuff, who only seem to want to sell HEX tickets.

I only hope this improves with Crossrail and we can have a single Travelcard valid on the rail or tube services, but I'm not sure if it will. I do find it embarssing to try to explain this to people just arrived in the country that there are 3 options for travel by rail, all at different prices and all not accepting each others tickets. Of course the airport wants to make it look like the only option is their very expensive HEX, which I guess is my answer as to why, but it is sad.

 

[route:oxford]

All a bit messy.

In particular it highlights the usefulness of contactless.

If your bank had issued you with a contactless credit card, you could have used it to travel one way to Paddington on TFL rail, and if you entered then exited at T5 there (should) have been nil charge.

 

[joncombe]

In particular it highlights the usefulness of contactless.

If your bank had issued you with a contactless credit card, you could have used it to travel one way to Paddington on TFL rail, and if you entered then exited at T5 there (should) have been nil charge.

Really? I had assumed if I used Contactless it would charge me the HEX fare, not the cheaper TFL one. Do the trains arrive at different platforms at Paddington then, so they know which service you used?

 

[Mag_seven]

Problem with that station is that the staff there will go out of their way to convince you there is no other way to central London other than via HEX.

 

[A Challenge]

Really? I had assumed if I used Contactless it would charge me the HEX fare, not the cheaper TFL one. Do the trains arrive at different platforms at Paddington then, so they know which service you used?

Oyster/Contactless is not valid on Heathrow Express at all.

 

[swt_passenger]

Really? I had assumed if I used Contactless it would charge me the HEX fare, not the cheaper TFL one. Do the trains arrive at different platforms at Paddington then, so they know which service you used?

Contactless and Oyster PAYG are not yet valid on HEX, it should be activated sometime in September, and yes, they do now and will arrive at separate Paddington platforms, so fares can be differentiated by platform used at that end.

Perhaps there is no RAIL only (ie via London) fare from Heathrow T2/3 to Woking, so it wouldn’t appear on a TVM.

Normal all zone (1-6) travelcards became valid on TfL Rail from Heathrow in May.

 

[joncombe]

Normal all zone (1-6) travelcards became valid on TfL Rail from Heathrow in May.

Thanks for the information, I wasn't aware of that (though I see it's currently on the front page of the TFL website). Certainly useful to know for future, if I need it again.

 

[gsnedders]

Perhaps there is no RAIL only (ie via London) fare from Heathrow T2/3 to Woking, so it wouldn’t appear on a TVM.

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=HXX&dest=WOK indeed shows no fare, so they couldn't sell you a fare to Woking because one doesn't exist.

 

[joncombe]

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=HXX&dest=WOK indeed shows no fare, so they couldn't sell you a fare to Woking because one doesn't exist.

Well in fact I think there is such a fare, a Z6-Woking single, since I see from a previous poster that Travelcards are now valid on the TFL Rail service. That fare does exist, so presumably the machines should be offering it? I mean they know I am at a station that is in Zone 6?

 

[swt_passenger]

Zone 6 to Woking won’t actually be valid from “anywhere or everywhere in Zone 6” though. It is for extending directly from a station in Zone 6 along a valid route to Woking, eg from Feltham or Surbiton. It wouldn’t be valid at Hayes and Harlington for a start.

 

[HowardGWR]

What the OP has discovered and proved is just how disgracefully, arriving pax at Heathrow are treated.

 

[Bookd]

Going back to the original problem the quickest journey may have been bus to Feltham and train from there, changing at Weybridge.

 

[Gagravarr]

I believe that at T2/T3, there's two sets of ticket machines. The ones you see straight ahead as you come down the coridoor are the old annoying HEX+HEC only ones. If you turn around, you'll see another few behind you which are "normal" machines which let you collect tickets, and I believe buy any normal ticket too.

For engineering reasons, there's a fair sized gap between the LU and NR platforms at T2/T3, so you're best off checking online using the free Heathrow wifi to know which to head for!

 

[joncombe]

Zone 6 to Woking won’t actually be valid from “anywhere or everywhere in Zone 6” though. It is for extending directly from a station in Zone 6 along a valid route to Woking, eg from Feltham or Surbiton. It wouldn’t be valid at Hayes and Harlington for a start.

There is also a Zone 1-6 Woking which surely would be valid via Hayes and Harlington. (I.E. Z1-6, not just Z6)

 

[Yabba]

What the OP has discovered and proved is just how disgracefully, arriving pax at Heathrow are treated.

I've had the "pleasure" of using Heathrow once. Arriving back from New York the place was using the connect to Paddington and then on to Bristol. I was shocked that the staff practically were shouting at people for getting on the connect service. There is 3 or 4 ticket offices all selling HEX tickets but if you want to use the connect you have to use the machine tucked discretely in the corner. It was shocking to say the least.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is also a Zone 1-6 Woking which surely would be valid via Hayes and Harlington. (I.E. Z1-6, not just Z6)

That’s probably what you’d need.

 

[700007]

1. I always thought National Rail stations (of which this is one) were obliged to offer tickets to all destinations. But it seemed the ticket machines and staff would only sell tickets to London. Is that permitted? Or should I report it?
2. Is it correct passengers are expected to buy tickets first before they can find out when the next train is (since the only information screens seem be at platform level)? I've never before come across a station where there are ticket barriers and no displays before the barriers.
3. Why do the TfL rail trains stop at the far end of the platform (leaving the part by the entrance to the station empty), whilst the Heathrow Express stops so the carriages are alongside the entrance? I am wondering if it is yet another attempt to "encourage" the use of the expensive HEX service over the TfL rail.
4. I always thought you were entitled to a refund if you decided not to travel, the ticket was entirely unused and you returned it to the same office you bought it from (apart from Advance fares), but the staff disputed this. Where they correct?
   
5. Why do they seemingly employ staff who assume no one would want to catch the TfL Rail trains and try to stop you boarding them?

1) Yes, if 'directly' possible, so perhaps a journey from Motspur Park to Woking with a single change at Wimbledon / Clapham Junction. Heathrow would involve too many changes via the Underground / TfL Rail / SWR. In the event this happens, I would recommend buying tickets for each leg of your journey (for example I did Southampton to Corfe Castle, or attempted to but that's another story, but I couldn't buy a direct ticket so had to buy one from So'ton to Wareham and then another from Wareham to Corfe Castle).

2) Yes this is something I noticed last week and I don't think it is a good set up either. TfL Rail I think have employed some new ticket machines there which some of the new ones do show live departures from that particular train station (quite a handy feature!) but I am to assume the departure feed doesn't work / isn't enabled on these ones.

3) Heathrow Express trains are formed of various coach lengths but I believe all trains at Heathrow Airport, regardless of TOC, stops at the far end of the platform? Even if HeX sends a short length unit it will stop at the far end. Obviously TfL Rail operates 1x5-car class 360s there so they will always be 'short' units that end up at the far end of the platform. However the timetable, partially for this reason, compensates for this and trains tend to be scheduled to dwell for about 3-4 minutes to allow passengers, once they have realised, to move up the platform before the train leaves them. Platform announcers are supposed to also state that if it is a short length train (TfL Rail or 4/5-car HeX) to tell passengers to move up in advance, but I've only seen them do this with HeX services.

4) If the ticket is unused, you should be entitled to a refund as you did not travel.

5) Heathrow Airport stations are owned and controlled by Heathrow Airport / Heathrow Express, and mainly employ Heathrow Express staff. I believe MTR Crossrail sends a few people out to Terminal 4 each day, one or two people out to T2 & 3 and nobody to Terminal 5 at present but they're usually only platform level and are in a sea of HeX staff anyways. Passengers will always 99% of the time encounter a HeX staff member first, therefore you will always be persuaded onto their service.

 

[TFN]

All units stop at the far end of the platform (London end) at T2/3. As a staff at HeX this is fun to watch on a Saturday when all trains, TfL & HeX are 4/5 coach trains and people run all the way down the platform.

As for the platform staff, we try hard not to let our customers onto TfL Rail trains as people with HeX tickets on TfL Rail get PFs (which makes it seem better to accidentally get on HeX trains with TfL/Oyster/Contactless instead of vice versa).

I can't speak much for T2/3 as I rarely leave the platforms there but at T5, all the HeX only tickets on the platform level have been removed and replaced with TfL machines, as well as free terminal transfer tickets.

The fact of the matter is most people at Heathrow Rail stations just want HeX or are doing a free transfer. The infrequency of TfL rail at the moment doesn't seem to make it a serious contender to HeX.

Most TfL Rail passengers that I encounter are either airport workers that live in the intermediate stations between Heathrow and Paddington, or passengers that "seem to be in the know" of the stopping service.

Quite a lot of people om HeX have discounted or advanced tickets, so it's not always the typical £22 for a single ticket.

As for people personally asking me on ways to get to Heathrow from Paddington, if they are going to Terminal 4 I would advise them to take TfL Rail instead of HeX on days where the inter terminal transfer doesn't run, which makes T4 have a 30 min service. This seems like everyday now that TfL can't borrow a 332 to run it.

Not everyone at HeX is evil!

 

[route:oxford]

I've had the "pleasure" of using Heathrow once. Arriving back from New York the place was using the connect to Paddington and then on to Bristol. I was shocked that the staff practically were shouting at people for getting on the connect service. There is 3 or 4 ticket offices all selling HEX tickets but if you want to use the connect you have to use the machine tucked discretely in the corner. It was shocking to say the least.

That may have been true in the olden days, but in modern times if you want to use TFL Rail (the new name for Heathrow Connect), you simply tap your Visa, Mastercard, Amex or Oyster Card on the reader, there's no need to mess around with tickets.

 

[bb21]

There is also a Zone 1-6 Woking which surely would be valid via Hayes and Harlington. (I.E. Z1-6, not just Z6)

There isn't such a fare looking at brfares, unless you mean the "reverse direction" Woking to London All Zones Travelcard.

A single fare to/from U-zone destinations (Zone U1256 in this case) is only valid for a single journey in the relevant zones on London Underground/DLR services generally speaking. They are not valid to/from named National Rail zonal stations, as tickets should be issued to/from such named stations.

What you really need is a through fare to/from Heathrow Rail and routed differently to reflect the services used. These flows exist for a number of destinations, but they mostly appear to cater for connecting to/from HEX services, and priced accordingly.

I don't think TfL have much appetite for pricing such through fares on Crossrail in addition to what currently exists.

 

[joncombe]

There isn't such a fare looking at brfares, unless you mean the "reverse direction" Woking to London All Zones Travelcard.

If I go to www.virgintrains.co.uk and select origin as "London Underground Zone 1-6" and destination as Woking, it quotes me a price of £16.70 for a single ticket (and routes the journey via Waterloo), so it seems the fare does exist. However I cannot get the South Western Railway website to show it. But if Virgin Trains show it, then it must exist surely? It would be valid on this journey given I think the TFL Rail (old HEathrow Connect) is now part of the Travelcard zones?

 

[joncombe]

That may have been true in the olden days, but in modern times if you want to use TFL Rail (the new name for Heathrow Connect), you simply tap your Visa, Mastercard, Amex or Oyster Card on the reader, there's no need to mess around with tickets.

Thanks. At least I know this for future!

 

[joncombe]

1) Yes, if 'directly' possible, so perhaps a journey from Motspur Park to Woking with a single change at Wimbledon / Clapham Junction. Heathrow would involve too many changes via the Underground / TfL Rail / SWR. In the event this happens, I would recommend buying tickets for each leg of your journey (for example I did Southampton to Corfe Castle, or attempted to but that's another story, but I couldn't buy a direct ticket so had to buy one from So'ton to Wareham and then another from Wareham to Corfe Castle).

Well there does seem to be Z1-6 to Woking ticket available, so I think that is the correct fare and that I should have been offered it. It certainly isn't true that there are no fares available (at all) from Heathrow to Woking, which is what the machines quoted me.

2) Yes this is something I noticed last week and I don't think it is a good set up either. TfL Rail I think have employed some new ticket machines there which some of the new ones do show live departures from that particular train station (quite a handy feature!) but I am to assume the departure feed doesn't work / isn't enabled on these ones.

I didn't notice any machines showing them, but it would be good if they did. The help points in the car parks of at least some SWR stations show departures which I think is a good idea.

3) Heathrow Express trains are formed of various coach lengths but I believe all trains at Heathrow Airport, regardless of TOC, stops at the far end of the platform? Even if HeX sends a short length unit it will stop at the far end. Obviously TfL Rail operates 1x5-car class 360s there so they will always be 'short' units that end up at the far end of the platform. However the timetable, partially for this reason, compensates for this and trains tend to be scheduled to dwell for about 3-4 minutes to allow passengers, once they have realised, to move up the platform before the train leaves them. Platform announcers are supposed to also state that if it is a short length train (TfL Rail or 4/5-car HeX) to tell passengers to move up in advance, but I've only seen them do this with HeX services.

Yes that makes sense. Though I don't know why "4 car stop" "8 car stop" etc signs aren't (or can't) be used, as at other stations to avoid making passengers walk to the very far end of the platform

4) If the ticket is unused, you should be entitled to a refund as you did not travel.

That was my understanding. Didn't think it was neccessary to write in for that either, but the staff insisted that was my only option.

 

[joncombe]

As for the platform staff, we try hard not to let our customers onto TfL Rail trains as people with HeX tickets on TfL Rail get PFs (which makes it seem better to accidentally get on HeX trains with TfL/Oyster/Contactless instead of vice versa).

I don't mind helping people that look "lost". I do object to being stopped when I'm hurrying for a train and being told it's not the train I want (when it is the train I want), without having been asked what train I *do* want, or having asked to check my ticket to find out what train(s) it is valid on.

The PF situation is crazy in my view. A passenger with the most expensive walk up flexible ticket getting fined for getting a slower less frequent service for which a cheaper fare is available is very bad when you consider many arriving at Heathrow won't be familiar with the different operators.

 

[bb21]

If I go to www.virgintrains.co.uk and select origin as "London Underground Zone 1-6" and destination as Woking, it quotes me a price of £16.70 for a single ticket (and routes the journey via Waterloo), so it seems the fare does exist. However I cannot get the South Western Railway website to show it. But if Virgin Trains show it, then it must exist surely? It would be valid on this journey given I think the TFL Rail (old HEathrow Connect) is now part of the Travelcard zones?

Note that it routes you via the tube, not Crossrail/TfL Rail.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't mind helping people that look "lost". I do object to being stopped when I'm hurrying for a train and being told it's not the train I want (when it is the train I want), without having been asked what train I *do* want, or having asked to check my ticket to find out what train(s) it is valid on.

The PF situation is crazy in my view. A passenger with the most expensive walk up flexible ticket getting fined for getting a slower less frequent service for which a cheaper fare is available is very bad when you consider many arriving at Heathrow won't be familiar with the different operators.

Remember, in some foreign countries, premium airport services sharing platforms with 'normal' services is actually quite unusual/unknown, even if they share airport-to-city infrastructure. Hong Kong and Kuala Lumpur are two examples.

 

[joncombe]

Note that it routes you via the tube, not Crossrail/TfL Rail.

Does it matter? Heathrow T123 is in Zone 6 and you can use a zonal ticket on multiple modes so I don't see that it makes a difference if you travel by tube or train, given normal zonal fares apply to the TFL Rail service to Heathrow?

 

[gsnedders]

Remember, in some foreign countries, premium airport services sharing platforms with 'normal' services is actually quite unusual/unknown, even if they share airport-to-city infrastructure. Hong Kong and Kuala Lumpur are two examples.

Are there many places where premium airport services do share platforms?

 

[mmh]

Are there many places where premium airport services do share platforms?

London has another - Gatwick Airport.

 

[bb21]

Does it matter?

In theory, yes, it does matter, as the ticket is not valid so you would be liable for a Penalty Fare. That is the official answer.

Whether it is enforced I cannot say. Whether you would like to take the risk is entirely up to you. I cannot make that decision for you.

you can use a zonal ticket on multiple modes

Not on a U-zone paper ticket. As I said earlier, a U-zone fare is only valid for a zonal journey on LU/DLR.

The system is a bit archaic, but there are still rules regarding validity. You can't just pick and choose the bits you like and ignore the bits you don't. Until they are changed, unfortunately that is what you will be given as the official answer.

If it really is such a deal, you can of course try and get TfL to change the rules. They may or may not agree with you, but if you don't ask...