Heathrow Southern Link

[MPW]

These are interesting discussions. I wonder if your responses would be different if services were implemented in phases, eg phase 1 just goes to staines.

That way each incremental section and its business case can be assessed separately. So if you ultimately think it should go to Southampton maybe you could agree that could be a later ambition.

 

[kevin_roche]

These are interesting discussions. I wonder if your responses would be different if services were implemented in phases, eg phase 1 just goes to staines.

That way each incremental section and its business case can be assessed separately. So if you ultimately think it should go to Southampton maybe you could agree that could be a later ambition.

Personally, I would welcome anything that reduced road traffic on the M25 around Heathrow. To have any great effect, I think there would need to be a service to Woking, but that would most likely need changes to level crossings and that will cost more with either tunnels or bridges being required, so I can see a good case for doing it in steps. Do you think that a service to Staines alone would pay for the new track?

 

[chris2]

These are interesting discussions. I wonder if your responses would be different if services were implemented in phases, eg phase 1 just goes to staines.

That way each incremental section and its business case can be assessed separately. So if you ultimately think it should go to Southampton maybe you could agree that could be a later ambition.

Oh yes absolutely. I guess my feeling was that a lot of the discussion seemed to be based around the benefits to areas more local to the airport, and I just wanted to offer the perspective from someone a bit further away and suggest that the benefits of the link could be felt much more widely as well. I'm in no way saying Southampton would be more worthy of new links than any other areas, sorry if it sounded like that. It's a shame that our rail infrastructure is so congested that it's not possible to just do all of the things that would be useful.

I believe extending the current Heathrow Express paths would be the best option for the southern link, as it also allows connections to HS2 at Old Oak and alternatives such as Paddington-Heathrow-Reading just provide a slower alternative to existing services. Just not as far as Southampton.

Could it extend to terminate at Woking?

 

[The Ham]

Could it extend to terminate at Woking?

Whilst it could, once you've got there the extra costs to get further (chiefly Farnborough, Basingstoke and Guildford) isn't a lot more but you add a significant population (Farnborough - well the Aldershot Urban Area 250,000, Basingstoke 115,000 and Guildford 78,000).

Especially given that it's unlikely that your could turn back 4tph at Woking without doing almost as much as allowing trains to get further.

 

[MPW]

Day dreaming today, I remembered a comment from mayor saying there was some positive commercial developments which made the link now more likely. An obvious explanation would relate to heathrow putting some money in to allow for expansion in future. But maybe heathrow express has also expressed interest to build and operate in order to increase ridership now that EL serves the airport. Ridership would probably be high enough to make it commercially viable for them given lack of good alternative routes

 

[The Ham]

Day dreaming today, I remembered a comment from mayor saying there was some positive commercial developments which made the link now more likely. An obvious explanation would relate to heathrow putting some money in to allow for expansion in future. But maybe heathrow express has also expressed interest to build and operate in order to increase ridership now that EL serves the airport. Ridership would probably be high enough to make it commercially viable for them given lack of good alternative routes

Heathrow running services is a possibility, I did wonder whether the new bus route which serves Basingstoke could be a useful way for the airport to understand if there's demand from that direction (obviously the bus route is there for other reasons).

Where it could be fairly useful for them is as a connection from Basingstoke, Farnborough, Guildford, Woking and the like to Old Oak Common, as it could mean that they aren't so reliant on airline only travel to generate income.

For example they could set ticket prices so that a session ticket was more than going via another route (to keep the premium nature) but still less than buying (for example 3 for a weekly ticket and 11 for the monthly ticket) the highly premium single/return tickets which they flog to tourists so it's not so expensive that no-one else uses it for other travel.

 

[Meerkat]

HS2 at OOC must make it a lot more viable, if they replace Heathrow Express with a Paddington-OOC-Heathrow and onto Woking/Guildford.
I think it would make HS2 significantly more attractive to Surrey/NE Hampshire residents as it would avoid the tube to Euston.
And it would create lots of other connections - getting from the inner SWR area to the inner GWR area is stupidly inconvenient.

 

[LUYMun]

HS2 at OOC must make it a lot more viable, if they replace Heathrow Express with a Paddington-OOC-Heathrow and onto Woking/Guildford.
I think it would make HS2 significantly more attractive to Surrey/NE Hampshire residents as it would avoid the tube to Euston.
And it would create lots of other connections - getting from the inner SWR area to the inner GWR area is stupidly inconvenient.

But then surely it’d be cheaper and more effective to have London Overground’s OOC station built and direct passengers there via Clapham Junction?

 

[The Ham]

But then surely it’d be cheaper and more effective to have London Overground’s OOC station built and direct passengers there via Clapham Junction?

Cheaper, but far fewer benefits.

Woking to Old Oak Common would be less than 37 minutes (16 minutes Woking to Heathrow and 21 minutes current Heathrow Express to Paddington, although Old Oak Common should cut 4 minutes from that, so about 33 -34 minutes), Woking to Clapham Junction is 19 minutes with then Clapham Junction to Shepherds Bush being 12 minutes, which is already 31 minutes, and so by the time there's been a change of trains at Clapham junction is almost certainly going to be longer.

However, that relies on the already fairly busy services from Woking towards London Waterloo.

There's also the fact that you're putting all your eggs in one basket, so for example this weekend the fastest journey time to Clapham Junction is 48 minutes, leading to a journey time of an hour.

Anyway, the conversation was in the context of Heathrow funding it, in which case the cost is of less concern.

 

[renegademaster]

Surely Elizabeth line has killed this off? Why crawl through south west london when you can get thameslink to farringdon and go to Heathrow from there. If you dont want to walk between TL and the EL platforms , the coach is only an hour

 

[The Ham]

Surely Elizabeth line has killed this off? Why crawl through south west london when you can get thameslink to farringdon and go to Heathrow from there. If you dont want to walk between TL and the EL platforms , the coach is only an hour

The plan wasn't reliant on London passengers (in fact arguably the Idea was to fill up seats made vacant by passengers getting off having travelled out of Waterloo).

It's not like the Elizabeth Line wasn't known about when this was put forwards.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely Elizabeth line has killed this off? Why crawl through south west london when you can get thameslink to farringdon and go to Heathrow from there. If you dont want to walk between TL and the EL platforms , the coach is only an hour

I don’t think so, because recent proposals for “Southern Access” are all about people travelling from the outer SWR area such as Guildford, Woking or Basingstoke, ie inwards towards Heathrow. The SWR outer catchment area is nowhere near Thameslink. Maybe it should have been “southwestern access” all along…

 

[MPW]

For me travelling from SE London with 2 kids I would much prefer to change at waterloo east for waterloo. The only way I could get to Heathrow with a single change, and no tube at all.

Tbf thameslink serves my local station but only at peak times and it stops everywhere except albuquerque on the way.

 

[Meerkat]

But then surely it’d be cheaper and more effective to have London Overground’s OOC station built and direct passengers there via Clapham Junction?

The suggested Overground ‘OOC’ stations are/were a joke - a good walk away, not a connection.
And going via Clapham is very long at the peaks as few if any of the fast trains stop there.

 

[infobleep]

Cheaper, but far fewer benefits.

Woking to Old Oak Common would be less than 37 minutes (16 minutes Woking to Heathrow and 21 minutes current Heathrow Express to Paddington, although Old Oak Common should cut 4 minutes from that, so about 33 -34 minutes), Woking to Clapham Junction is 19 minutes with then Clapham Junction to Shepherds Bush being 12 minutes, which is already 31 minutes, and so by the time there's been a change of trains at Clapham junction is almost certainly going to be longer.

However, that relies on the already fairly busy services from Woking towards London Waterloo.

There's also the fact that you're putting all your eggs in one basket, so for example this weekend the fastest journey time to Clapham Junction is 48 minutes, leading to a journey time of an hour.

Anyway, the conversation was in the context of Heathrow funding it, in which case the cost is of less concern.

Woking to Clapham Junction isn't 19 minutes during the Monday to Friday morning peak rush hour when trains skip it. After the 07:13 there isn't another until 08:46.

In-between you have to change trains and the times are officially as follows:
46m [departing 07:32]
1h05m [departing 07:46]
56m [departing 08:02]

That is ignoring any that get overtaken and I've told it to avoid Waterloo, as it tries to route you via that route, which whilst faster might not be valid.

The 07:46 is the 1h05m one and that gets you in just 14m before the 08:46.

The 08;02 gets you in just 7m earlier than the 08:46.

So routing people via Clapham Junction isn't much help at that time unless you live in Greater London or near by on the right railway line.

In the evening for the reverse the gap is just 1 hour between 17:02 and 18:02 if going to Woking. Those taking 27m and 23m respectively. There is of course the 17:29, which is non-stop at 41m but it isn't fast. At least it gets in at 18:10, if it's helpful for connections.

So avoiding Clapham Junction would be good, if you are interested in season ticket holders or anyone who doesn't want central London.

 

[Howardh]

I watched Geoff Marshall's video about the new London "Superloop" and I thought there might be a way to get to East Croydon direct by bus, the SL7; looked it up and it seems to take hours, much quicker (although probably a lot more expensive) Elizabeth line to Farringdon then Thameslink south toe East Croydon and beyond (eg Gatwick), so in effect you are almost going in the opposite direction as you intended.

I suppose I could shorten the distance but increase the time by using tube to Earls Court/Kensington and then I think there's a direct train to East Croydon (might go to Gatwick and even Brighton??) but to an outsider, getting anywhere south-east of Heathrow you just hit a blank spot, and I wouldn't blame the government if they used some of the ex-HS2 money to connect Heathrow better with south London, maybe extending the Elizabeth line down and round? Won't happen in my lifetime though, even if there was £200bn waiting to be used!

 

[JonathanH]

Won't happen in my lifetime though

Given there a no plans, and existing transport plans which would take priority, a link south east from Heathrow would be unlikely in anyone's lifetime.

It is a strange thing that new build ideas to increase the coverage of the railway like Heathrow Southern approach take precedence over improving mediocre railways like Waterloo to Ascot.

 

[MarkyT]

I don’t think so, because recent proposals for “Southern Access” are all about people travelling from the outer SWR area such as Guildford, Woking or Basingstoke, ie inwards towards Heathrow. The SWR outer catchment area is nowhere near Thameslink. Maybe it should have been “southwestern access” all along…

A Waterloo service via the southern link would connect with much of the rest of the Southern world via Clapham Junction and Waterloo Main - East.

The suggested Overground ‘OOC’ stations are/were a joke - a good walk away, not a connection.
And going via Clapham is very long at the peaks as few if any of the fast trains stop there.

Old Oak Common Lane proposed LO station site on the NLL is about 300m away from the HS2 concourse entrance. Not a joke but not ideal for a luggage-laden air traveller. I hope they cover the walkway, alongside the station access road. I agree going from SWR land to Heathrow via London is tediously long and complex via any route. Being able to change onto a Heathrow train at Woking or Basingstoke would make rail to the airport much more attractive.

 

[Howardh]

Given there a no plans, and existing transport plans which would take priority, a link south east from Heathrow would be unlikely in anyone's lifetime.

It is a strange thing that new build ideas to increase the coverage of the railway like Heathrow Southern approach take precedence over improving mediocre railways like Waterloo to Ascot.

It's frustrating that there is no real rail connection between Heathrow and Gatwick, when HS2 finally arrives even incomplete, it could be faster to get to Manchester Airport from Heathrow than Gatwick!!

 

[Bald Rick]

It's frustrating that there is no real rail connection between Heathrow and Gatwick

Why? Hardly anyone does the journey.

 

[Howardh]

Why? Hardly anyone does the journey.

Maybe because it's so difficult!!

I would use Manchester > Heathrow flight then fast train to East Croydon to travel to Brighton/Eastbourne if there was a direct rail service between LHR and East Croydon. But travelling in the opposite direction - ie. Sussex, South London etc to Heathrow they have the same problem, I'm sure they would love to be better connected?

 

[infobleep]

Maybe because it's so difficult!!

I would use Manchester > Heathrow flight then fast train to East Croydon to travel to Brighton/Eastbourne if there was a direct rail service between LHR and East Croydon. But travelling in the opposite direction - ie. Sussex, South London etc to Heathrow they have the same problem, I'm sure they would love to be better connected?

Why not fly Manchester to Gatwick or is that not possible?

 

[Howardh]

Why not fly Manchester to Gatwick or is that not possible?

Annoyingly it isn't possible, by heck it would be useful for connecting to flights far away and beyond. Manchester used to fly to Southampton, can't find any such flights these days, might even have flown to Southend once.
I'd use MCR/Gatwick for hols on the south coast!!

 

[Bald Rick]

I would use Manchester > Heathrow flight then fast train to East Croydon to travel to Brighton/Eastbourne if there was a direct rail service between LHR and East Croydon. But travelling in the opposite direction - ie. Sussex, South London etc to Heathrow they have the same problem, I'm sure they would love to be better connected?

Maybe use the train the whole way?

 

[Howardh]

Maybe use the train the whole way?

Yes I do but it's subject to disruption too often!! And unless a specific advance in standard, not much cheaper than flying.

Just an addition about Gatwick, a quick search shows that it doesn't fly to any UK mainland airport, at least not currently (might change for summer??)

 

[infobleep]

Yes I do but it's subject to disruption too often!! And unless a specific advance in standard, not much cheaper than flying.

Just an addition about Gatwick, a quick search shows that it doesn't fly to any UK mainland airport, at least not currently (might change for summer??)

I've never flown domestically, expect when I was going to the Isle of Scilly by helicopter, a week before the ferry service resumed that year.

By the time you get to the airport by train and then get the flight and then finally a train at the other end, you might as well go by train.

Of course if they won't let you buy a train ticket online, you might consider flying, unaware you could buy a train ticket from a railway station.

 

[JonathanH]

Just an addition about Gatwick, a quick search shows that it doesn't fly to any UK mainland airport, at least not currently (might change for summer??)

Easyjet operate direct flights from Gatwick to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Inverness.

 

[Howardh]

Easyjet operate direct flights from Gatwick to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Inverness.

Doesn't surprise me; but I searched "UK flights from Gatwick" and was directed to the airport's site and none of them were mentioned, so can passengers be unaware of those services? This was their page I was directed to https://www.gatwickairport.com/flights/destinations.html and clicked on the link "browse all destinations" underlining "ALL" (!!) and the UK mainland destinations were absent. Strange!

I've never flown domestically, expect when I was going to the Isle of Scilly by helicopter, a week before the ferry service resumed that year.

By the time you get to the airport by train and then get the flight and then finally a train at the other end, you might as well go by train.

Of course if they won't let you buy a train ticket online, you might consider flying, unaware you could buy a train ticket from a railway station.

And you do book with a train a few weeks in advance, and find out it's a strike week later!!

 

[AlastairFraser]

Doesn't surprise me; but I searched "UK flights from Gatwick" and was directed to the airport's site and none of them were mentioned, so can passengers be unaware of those services? This was their page I was directed to https://www.gatwickairport.com/flights/destinations.html and clicked on the link "browse all destinations" underlining "ALL" (!!) and the UK mainland destinations were absent. Strange!

Something wrong with their website given Eastern Airways operate services to Gatwick to/from Newquay and BA to/from Glasgow as well.

 

[Meerkat]

A Waterloo service via the southern link would connect with much of the rest of the Southern world via Clapham Junction and Waterloo Main - East.

Old Oak Common Lane proposed LO station site on the NLL is about 300m away from the HS2 concourse entrance. Not a joke but not ideal for a luggage-laden air traveller. I hope they cover the walkway, alongside the station access road. I agree going from SWR land to Heathrow via London is tediously long and complex via any route. Being able to change onto a Heathrow train at Woking or Basingstoke would make rail to the airport much more attractive.

The LO stations have no funding and look pretty unlikely - an out of station interchange just won’t be popular. The one on the Clapham line is even further away. And Looks like there will be a fair bit of walking even after the 300m to the station entrance!
Need a people mover from Willesden Junction to OOC, with a stop in the development area, and maybe an extension on to North Acton, or even South Ruislip (scope creep!)