Heathrow Southern Link

[ATS3]

No-one seems to be talking about the fact that T5 has OLE, while Staines and Woking and Hounslow have third rail. Elizabeth Line trains in particular have no shoes - could they be fitted?

Presumably they'll just lay 3rd rail to T5 with this plan? Note they also have a empty space which has been left for this exact purpose to put the kit with too: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...-train-station-under-terminal-5-a3186236.html

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2023 ==

An aspect of this proposal is that provided the link is established to Terminal 5 and then either by change of train or by through services it allows passengers from South West Suburbs and out to Basingstoke, Guildford to access HS/2 at Oak Common. This might spare some governmental blushes due to the late and expensive Euston issues. A second issue is there is a suggestion that the link might open land for housing, not sure where, but is obviously a consideration.

A through service Heathrow/Gatwick is very unlikely as a non-stop coach is likely to be quicker. It should be noted the North Downs Line has a constraint in that the Level Crossing at Reigate can cause major traffic issues (similar to Lincoln) it is difficult to see how many more trains can use the line without a major infrastructure intervention.

TFL are getting more interested in orbital routes in London as evidenced by the new bus routes, although outside London boundary this appears to be part of this evolving thought process.

Finally Heathrow has a strategy to reduce emissions from operating the airport and travel to from the airport - ideally they would like Southern and Western Access built ASAP - not sure they will come up with the money to enable the schemes.

They've recently introduced a lot of bus routes that they run including some into London so I don't see why they wouldn't.

 

[cle]

Presumably they'll just lay 3rd rail to T5 with this plan? Note they also have a empty space which has been left for this exact purpose to put the kit with too: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...-train-station-under-terminal-5-a3186236.html

This is my thought. Or there is a smaller AC/DC sub-fleet which could be Heathrow branded, ish.

As there is also the Staines terminator option (HEX or Elizabeth Line) - and those would be AC.

There might be a world where the whole extension is electrified in both ways (like from Farringdon to City TL - but a couple of miles) - or new HEx stock has shoes (could be same as the new Southern stock). But I don't see EL getting shoes - too many units.

 

[RobShipway]

This is my thought. Or there is a smaller AC/DC sub-fleet which could be Heathrow branded, ish.

As there is also the Staines terminator option (HEX or Elizabeth Line) - and those would be AC.

There might be a world where the whole extension is electrified in both ways (like from Farringdon to City TL - but a couple of miles) - or new HEx stock has shoes (could be same as the new Southern stock). But I don't see EL getting shoes - too many units.

If Elizabeth line do operate on these routes, I suspect that it will be with new dual voltage versions of Aventra stock, similar to the London Overground class 710 dual voltage units as it needs the current stock to be operating Reading/Maidenhead/Heathrow to Abbey Wood services.

 

[kevin_roche]

Would that be an extension of HX?

No, more likely replacing a commuter service from Guildford to London Waterloo accept going to London Paddington instead.

I think if there is a through service to Paddington from Woking/Guildford/Basingstoke there will not be capacity on the GWML for an extra 4tph so would have to replace or extend the HX services.

 

[MPW]

3rd rail + OLE from HT5 to Staines seems obvious and simple as an outsider rather than needing dual voltage trains. There'd be no disruption to do this as it'd be a brand new line. Is there a reason I don't know about that makes this difficult and warrants the suggestions for more complex solutions? Tunnel clearance?

Or maybe those suggesting DV trains are thinking of EL going further south on existing lines?

 

[adamedwards]

As the HEX trains are now 387s and some of these used to be dual voltage on Thameslink before the 700s, I would assume fitting shoes ought to be simple. That then means its the HEX trains which would go out to Woking and beyond. Elizabeth Line would not want the complexity of adding third rail to the 345s and adding a set of extra trains which are dual voltage is over complex, so Staines termination for these trains and the overhead wires.

I would guess this also then means HEX need a lot more 387s, so we need a supply of those, I assume off GWR local services. May be the 379s or 350s now have a niche to fill?

 

[swt_passenger]

No-one seems to be talking about the fact that T5 has OLE, while Staines and Woking and Hounslow have third rail. Elizabeth Line trains in particular have no shoes - could they be fitted?

Yes they can be fitted. Would also be needed for any extension beyond Abbey Wood, if that ran onto existing tracks.

 

[RobShipway]

As the HEX trains are now 387s and some of these used to be dual voltage on Thameslink before the 700s, I would assume fitting shoes ought to be simple. That then means its the HEX trains which would go out to Woking and beyond. Elizabeth Line would not want the complexity of adding third rail to the 345s and adding a set of extra trains which are dual voltage is over complex, so Staines termination for these trains and the overhead wires.

I would guess this also then means HEX need a lot more 387s, so we need a supply of those, I assume off GWR local services. May be the 379s or 350s now have a niche to fill?

Where would you get the class 387's? GTR needs all of their class 387 units either for Southern/Gatwick Express services or for Great Northern. So the only other option is to build more modern day versions which is the dual voltage Aventra as in the class 710 fleet.

 

[stuu]

3rd rail + OLE from HT5 to Staines seems obvious and simple as an outsider rather than needing dual voltage trains. There'd be no disruption to do this as it'd be a brand new line. Is there a reason I don't know about that makes this difficult and warrants the suggestions for more complex solutions? Tunnel clearance?

Yes, it needs complicated insulating because of the way the return paths work for the current. It needs a lot of maintenance as a result and is not done unless absolutely necessary

 

[JonathanH]

Where would you get the class 387's? GTR needs all of their class 387 units either for Southern/Gatwick Express services or for Great Northern. So the only other option is to build more modern day versions which is the dual voltage Aventra as in the class 710 fleet.

I think this thread has got somewhat carried away with the anticipation that this route can be developed in a short time frame.

'Bald Rick' has indicated that it won't happen before Euston HS2 is open, so that could mean almost into the 2040s so worrying about how existing stock is going to be utilised seems somewhat off the mark.

Is it clear where the funding is coming from? I suspect in the unlikely event that it is financed purely by the private sector, the tickets would carry a substantial airport premium, like Heathrow Express already does.

 

[LUYMun]

If HEX operates the Heathrow southern route, it shouldn't necessitate a premium being charged on the whole service in future, let alone Paddington to Heathrow!

 

[RobShipway]

I think this thread has got somewhat carried away with the anticipation that this route can be developed in a short time frame.

'Bald Rick' has indicated that it won't happen before Euston HS2 is open, so that could mean almost into the 2040s so worrying about how existing stock is going to be utilised seems somewhat off the mark.

Is it clear where the funding is coming from? I suspect in the unlikely event that it is financed purely by the private sector, the tickets would carry a substantial airport premium, like Heathrow Express already does.

Precisely. But since it will be probably about 2040 before any of it is finished being developed, that is why I am saying that it would most likely be new dual voltage stock running the routes. As for who pays for work and the new coaching stock to be leased, well that is likely to either be private sector or possibly mixture of public/private sector depending on how the public sector budgets are within 10 years time.

 

[SynthD]

If HEX operates the Heathrow southern route, it shouldn't necessitate a premium being charged on the whole service in future, let alone Paddington to Heathrow!

Why? As recently as five years ago, a court decided that HAA could still expect income to pay off their investment in the existing tunnel. Even if someone else built the new tunnel, the existing tunnel charges would remain.

 

[cle]

If HEX operates the Heathrow southern route, it shouldn't necessitate a premium being charged on the whole service in future, let alone Paddington to Heathrow!

It might actually normalize the sense of Heathrow being a regular part of the network and interchange point - much like Manchester, Zurich and Amsterdam. But in this greedy place, I doubt it. You'd have SWT, Crossrail, Hex and the Piccadilly line. Not bad.

I'd expect a few people would use it like that - although would it all be via those big lifts up to arrivals... or would there be another way down there to interchange between the three islands?

 

[James90012]

Extending HEX paths to Reading via Ascot, whilst potentially less useful for Airport traffic, offers an opportunity to speed up journeys into London from Bracknell which is a painfully slow route.

 

[JonathanH]

Extending HEX paths to Reading via Ascot, whilst potentially less useful for Airport traffic, offers an opportunity to speed up journeys into London from Bracknell which is a painfully slow route.

Staines is 32 minutes away from Waterloo via Richmond. Heathrow Terminal 5 is 21 minutes from Paddington. There really isn't much saving for Bracknell passengers of going via Heathrow given where they then end up in London.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think it’s incredible how much Britain was booming from the mid 90s to the late 2000s and yet no government seemed to find the money or time to build this damned link. It’s the lack of basic infrastructure like this that’s holding back Britains productivity. Is there no possibility for extending that Terminal 5 pod system to Feltham station perhaps?

 

[SynthD]

The airport built the tunnel and the pods. Why would the government get involved? They knew the airport wanted a third runway and would build more public transport as part of it. This is one of very few areas where we should be demanding public rail from a private company.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The airport built the tunnel and the pods. Why would the government get involved? They knew the airport wanted a third runway and would build more public transport as part of it. This is one of very few areas where we should be demanding public rail from a private company.

We’ll it’s a key piece of national infrastructure and should be part of a joined up central plan, not left to tiresome “market forces”

 

[adamedwards]

What actually has to be constructed and what is a viable timeframe? I'm assuming fitting out the T5 station, a tunnel out to the west under the roads (which I would hope has some passive provision), then a bridge over the A3113. There is then track bed next to the M25 and a junction into the existing railway and a bay platform at Staines facing Heathrow. Getting planning permission will take time, but these construction works don't seem to be that big in comparison to other projects.

 

[MontyP]

I was thinking HEX to Surrey as well, given previous comments on capacity to the south the # of trains paths seems very similar to existing HEX.

An additional EL connection (or same new tracks as HEX) with terrminal platforms at staines or thereabouts would be a game changer for SW London and Surrey. Combining the two would create countless new direct connections and ones with only one change, bypassing central london.

Tempted to suggest EL carrying on to connect to the line through Kingston, maybe terminating at sudbury via A308 dual carriageway or along the space either side of the road (incl. Reservoir and canal). anyway, only tempted to suggest it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2023 ==

I can also see Windsor residents starting to demand EL services if anything goes anywhere near their line! Genuinely not suggesting that one, but will certainly be in the Windsor express (or whatever the local newspaper is called)

I seem to remember way back that one of the options for western terminus for Crossrail (as then known) was Kingston via Acton/Richmond. Would have required a new connection to the GWML slow lines at Acton plus reinstatement of the link from the LU/LO to SW lines at Richmond.

 

[Bald Rick]

What actually has to be constructed and what is a viable timeframe? I'm assuming fitting out the T5 station, a tunnel out to the west under the roads (which I would hope has some passive provision), then a bridge over the A3113. There is then track bed next to the M25 and a junction into the existing railway and a bay platform at Staines facing Heathrow. Getting planning permission will take time, but these construction works don't seem to be that big in comparison to other projects.

It’s substantial.

it’s bored tunnel (through wet gravel) almost certainly until south of the A3113 - there’s not enough distance to get up and over it, and no passive provision. Then the small issue of getting across Staines Moor - an SSSI. That just gets you to Staines, for which there will never be a viable case. The line needs to get to Woking.

 

[fandroid]

It’s substantial.

it’s bored tunnel (through wet gravel) almost certainly until south of the A3113 - there’s not enough distance to get up and over it, and no passive provision. Then the small issue of getting across Staines Moor - an SSSI. That just gets you to Staines, for which there will never be a viable case. The line needs to get to Woking.

Someone would look at the passenger numbers on the RA2 bus between Woking and Heathrow and immediately say that a Woking link wasn't viable either.

It should be seen as an infrastructure issue. Get the line built to Staines, Elizabeth Line (Abbey Wood) style, future-proofed for extensions southwards and let that bed in to assess viability of further links. Keep the whole thing as simple as possible by just extending current T5 EL services with existing stock.

 

[infobleep]

The problem with services on this axis is the number of level crossings and how long they would then stay shut due to an increase in trains, particularly services in the Virginia Water direction. Assuming that can be fixed, the place to send the Elizabeth line trains to would be Woking, as you then have one change onto the whole of SWR and in the other direction an easy change to Heathrow and Old Oak Common for HS2.

Hopefully, they would time it well with trains from Guildford, given the current service pattern is: x19, x34, x49.

One train an hour departing at x16 would not be good. I use x16 as an example because that is when officially the first fast train to Clapham Junction departs from Woking after you get into Woking off the x49 from Guildford.

 

[JonathanH]

Get the line built to Staines, Elizabeth Line (Abbey Wood) style, future-proofed for extensions southwards and let that bed in to assess viability of further links.

Small matter that a bay at Staines faces the wrong way for sensible extensions, and that putting the (tight) triangle back at Staines involves substantial changes to the road layout and no obvious place to put platforms.

 

[SynthD]

Small matter that a bay at Staines faces the wrong way for sensible extensions, and that putting the (tight) triangle back at Staines involves substantial changes to the road layout and no obvious place to put platforms.

The plan earlier in the thread has a further tunnel, which is key for avoiding the four level crossings in Egham.

 

[joncombe]

Someone would look at the passenger numbers on the RA2 bus between Woking and Heathrow and immediately say that a Woking link wasn't viable either.

That route has just doubled in frequency to every 30 minutes.

 

[David Goddard]

The plan earlier in the thread has a further tunnel, which is key for avoiding the four level crossings in Egham.

This seems to be the main difference to previous proposals (Airtrack etc) for which the regular issue was those crossings, so a tunnel here would get round those, but removes Egham from the plan (cant have cake and eat it)
Although the tunnel is only about a mile and a half, it will need to go under some reservoirs, the river Thames and the M25, as well as the Western half of Staines, so wont be cheap, but would probably pay for itself in a reasonable (as far as construction projects go) time.

Service wise, the crayons can come out and create all manner of spaghetti diagrams but this is probably best kept as straightforward as possible. The original Airtrack proposals mooted Reading, Basingstoke and Guildford, but whether all of these still need to remain in the plan is one of the elephants in the room. The route needs a natural initial terminus in the area, and I would have thought that this should most logically be Woking, given its connectivity to a large part of the network in this direction, and the presence of a suitably long bay platform which can be shared with the Waterloo suburbans.

I had wondered whether any services approaching Heathrow from this direction need to be extensions of existing services, and whether they could be self contained, however the main issue here is accessing all terminals due to the way that the complex is laid out, so through trains to and from the GWML will be an enforced consequence, although this will open up access to Old Oak Common, as well as the Central and District Lines at Ealing Broadway as well so its probably just as well.

It would not really matter which service is extended onwards to Woking, whether this is bolted on to Crossrail or attached to the current HX service (and whatever they become in the future). Plenty of time to acquire new stock whether it is a subfleet of 345s to work with the existing Crossrail fleet or another type for a service to just run into Paddington GW. We could naturally be drawn towards the Aventra family for commonality with stock at both ends and this would not be a bad thing.

The chord to Staines was always part of the plan, but this needs to facilitate flows into the Airport from further afield than just Staines, so should see a through SWR service from Waterloo (probably similar calling pattern and running at even intervals to the Windsor services) which would then terminate at Terminal Five in the presently unused platforms there. Had Heathrow 2&3 been built with four platforms then they could have run through to there but there we are. This could also be the option for any additional services in due course along the Reading - Ascot corridor, which can then use the new link from Virginia Water to access the Airport complex, and to T5 in the same way.

Just as well this is in "Speculative Discussion" so we can express our thoughts without getting shouted down by those who know better!

 

[JonathanH]

All well and good, but it doesn't sound cheap, and would come with a fair amount of disruption.

Is the role of HSR Limited to lobby for non-existent public money for this, or do they think it can be paid for privately? It isn't a trivial piece of infrastructure.

Quite why 2027-28 is mentioned as a potential delivery date seems optimistic in the extreme without actual backing.

 

[LUYMun]

Someone would look at the passenger numbers on the RA2 bus between Woking and Heathrow and immediately say that a Woking link wasn't viable either.

Comparing apples to oranges here. Not many travellers will be incentivised to take a coach in comparison to a train to Heathrow.