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Heathrow Express GWR Contract

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Clarence Yard

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I just wonder whether there might also be a bit of a fudge in here somewhere to help GWR cope with the high 'Train Service Provision Payments' due to Agility Trains for the trains supplied under the 'InterCity Express Programme'? Perhaps included in part of "DA3"? Or am I being more suspicious of the DfT than I need be?

No, the IEP payments are covered off in the existing DA. The fudge here is HS2 not paying as much as it would cost to fund a new depot at Langley. There is also the certainty that they get OOC in December 2019, which was looking increasingly impossible if they needed somewhere else to maintain 332 units. Reading is already full.
 
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matt_world2004

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Right, thank you for the clarification. I take it, though, that I am mostly right in that there is no significant operational linkage (apart from the use of some resources shared between the two routes such as capacity at Reading depot) although there are (complex) funding and contractual linkages?

I just wonder whether there might also be a bit of a fudge in here somewhere to help GWR cope with the high 'Train Service Provision Payments' due to Agility Trains for the trains supplied under the 'InterCity Express Programme'? Perhaps included in part of "DA3"? Or am I being more suspicious of the DfT than I need be?


The original BR/BAA contract for the HEx infrastructure and service has an end date of 2023. However HS2 Ltd is looking for access to the Old Oak Common site for construction work to start on HS2 by the end of next year and the HEx depot and access tracks are in the way.

Therefore it would have been essential for HS2 Ltd. to have supplied HEx with equivalent facilities for the few remaining years of the BR/BAA contract regardless of whether the site was leased or owned. The solution announced today, as I wrote in my earlier post, saves money all round - HS2 Ltd. (or rather the taxpayer) doesn't have to pay for a new maintenance depot and the overheads of running HEx will reduce as the costs of the OOC depot fall away as the maintenance will be shared at the existing Reading depot.
That contract is for access to the gwml from airport junction/ooc. No obligation to provide equivilent facilities
 

physics34

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youd hope the 387s would have better seating fitted. If so, why not the Gat Ex too!
 

Bletchleyite

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youd hope the 387s would have better seating fitted. If so, why not the Gat Ex too!

The ironing boards with armrests and the thicker contoured base cushion really aren't that bad a seat for a 15 minute journey, and the spacing is good. But it doesn't look like a premium train. There's something quite special about the Class 332 interiors that give it a premium feel that no other train in the UK comes close to.
 

Clarence Yard

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That contract is for access to the gwml from airport junction/ooc. No obligation to provide equivilent facilities

HS2 are under parliamentary obligation to pay for equivalent depot facilities for HEx in order to release the land, buildings and fixed equipment that they currently use/own at OOC.

The track access contract has nothing to do with this. That remains with HAL, who remain the body that "operates" HEx and they are also still commercially in charge. Only the running side and responsibility for providing and maintaining the 387 trains sits with GWR, through a contractual agreement with HAL.

The provision of the 769 units is done through a contract between GWR and the owner but is ultimately paid for by somebody else as it is related to the vacation of OOC through release of the 387 units for HEx diagrams.
 

physics34

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The ironing boards with armrests and the thicker contoured base cushion really aren't that bad a seat for a 15 minute journey, and the spacing is good. But it doesn't look like a premium train. There's something quite special about the Class 332 interiors that give it a premium feel that no other train in the UK comes close to.

yeh thats the issue i think. current users of the Heathrow Express will turn there noses up at the 387s in current form.
 

matt_world2004

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HS2 are under parliamentary obligation to pay for equivalent depot facilities for HEx in order to release the land, buildings and fixed equipment that they currently use/own at OOC.
.

Wouldnt they still be under obligation to compensate heathrow airport for the loss of depot space. Even if heathrow has no subsequent use for that depot space.That is how most compulsory purchase schemes work.
 

Clarence Yard

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Wouldnt they still be under obligation to compensate heathrow airport for the loss of depot space. Even if heathrow has no subsequent use for that depot space.That is how most compulsory purchase schemes work.

That's effectively what I said. However, the lease/ownership issues on the site (which I am not going to get into here) are different to what you get with other depots. It's a fairly unique arrangement.
 

rebmcr

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The line isn't even signalled to modern day standards - it uses token to Bourne End and a train staff to Marlow

Sounds like an ideal trial site for a low-cost ETCS L1-Regional installation. There would be economies of scale and reduced infrastructure costs by 'adding-on' to the adjacent GWML installation!
 

matt_world2004

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That's effectively what I said. However, the lease/ownership issues on the site (which I am not going to get into here) are different to what you get with other depots. It's a fairly unique arrangement.

I guess it would being an open access operator. If it was a franchised operator I would guess the compensation could be in kind with similar depot space elsewhere but heathrow (Particularly now) would prefer financial reinbursement for loss of space.
 

physics34

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still looking for something official regarding the 769s on the North Downs
 

JN114

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still looking for something official regarding the 769s on the North Downs

Without any desire to “out” them so to speak - Clarence Yard is about as official as they get. Certainly We’ve had nothing officially internally at GWR; and I have serious doubts as to their suitability; but if the honourable member says they’re coming, I’m more than happy to accept his word for it; they’re coming.
 

The Ham

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Without any desire to “out” them so to speak - Clarence Yard is about as official as they get. Certainly We’ve had nothing officially internally at GWR; and I have serious doubts as to their suitability; but if the honourable member says they’re coming, I’m more than happy to accept his word for it; they’re coming.

Given that there's significant numbers of people that only travel for short distances on the line there's probably quite a few people for whom the increase in door capacity and standing space will be a great advantage.
 

physics34

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Without any desire to “out” them so to speak - Clarence Yard is about as official as they get. Certainly We’ve had nothing officially internally at GWR; and I have serious doubts as to their suitability; but if the honourable member says they’re coming, I’m more than happy to accept his word for it; they’re coming.

thats good. It makes sense. would they be TRi mode...is that possible? Dc, AC and diesel?
 

jw

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thats good. It makes sense. would they be TRi mode...is that possible? Dc, AC and diesel?

Surely it's dual voltage bi-mode, rather than tri-mode? We don't consider the Class 700 Thameslink units bi-mode because they use both AC and DC...
 

physics34

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Surely it's dual voltage bi-mode, rather than tri-mode? We don't consider the Class 700 Thameslink units bi-mode because they use both AC and DC...
yep i get what you mean.

Is there room underneath them though for the engine, 3rd rail equipment and overhead equipment?
 

Mag_seven

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When GWR take over do we expect to see every other HEX train cancelled on a Sunday due to driver shortages. <(
 

Gagravarr

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Looking at a map, Combe seems fairly pointless - it's a bit far from Combe itself for people to want to walk, and if you're getting in the car you might as well go to Hanborough, similarly Finstock to Charlbury though it is rather further away from the two villages.

I do sort of tend to the idea that if a station isn't worth a two-hourly clockface service (or the full service on the line if lesser than that) it isn't worth serving at all.

I think there's a fair number of people who'd like to see Finstock get more service! As well as those in the village itself (short walk), there's a business park between the village and the station on the edge of the Cornbury Park estate, and a bigger business park at Southill just up a private road from the station. GWR probably don't mind the people who'd prefer Finstock but instead walk/drive/cycle to Charlbury now, and have no idea on the people who'd prefer Finstock but drive elsewhere / the whole way instead!
 

swt_passenger

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yep i get what you mean.

Is there room underneath them though for the engine, 3rd rail equipment and overhead equipment?
“Third rail equipment”, as as been explained numerous times, doesn’t require significant space. Apart from the shoe gear, and cabling, there is very little else.
 

jimm

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That's a very silly suggestion.

The evening stopper has been operated by 180s/800s for a long while. There is no physical reason why the morning stopper can't be one too. The constraints are simply platform lengths (three-coach non-SDO stock won't do, two-coach or any SDO stock is fine) and, obviously, stock availability in the peaks.

However, the afternoon service will be reverting to a Turbo from next January.

I think there's a fair number of people who'd like to see Finstock get more service! As well as those in the village itself (short walk), there's a business park between the village and the station on the edge of the Cornbury Park estate, and a bigger business park at Southill just up a private road from the station. GWR probably don't mind the people who'd prefer Finstock but instead walk/drive/cycle to Charlbury now, and have no idea on the people who'd prefer Finstock but drive elsewhere / the whole way instead!

I don't.

Depends on what you mean by a short walk. It's probably a good 15 minutes and the station is at the bottom of a hill, which is a long old drag on the way up in a car, never mind on foot or bike. The entrance to the access road to Southill business park may be close to the station but it's much the same distance to walk/cycle as it is to the village (and most of the people working at/visiting both business parks are likely to be coming from places nowhere near the railway in the first place).

If BR had not messed up paperwork for the closure procedures just ahead of privatisation, then both Combe and Finstock would probably have closed more than 20 years ago.

That these two halts survived the 1960s, yet places elsewhere on the Cotswold Line like Chipping Campden and Fladbury lost their stations is baffling - you can't beat a bit of political interference...
 

Clarence Yard

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I guess it would being an open access operator. If it was a franchised operator I would guess the compensation could be in kind with similar depot space elsewhere but heathrow (Particularly now) would prefer financial reinbursement for loss of space.

The compensation is effectively in kind. The depot space elsewhere is provided by somebody else who effectively needs more units to make it all happen!
 

matt_world2004

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The compensation is effectively in kind. The depot space elsewhere is provided by somebody else who effectively needs more units to make it all happen!
But I am assuming heathrow airport holdings will get money for the land their depot resides on. Or money to break the lease
 

Non Multi

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But I am assuming heathrow airport holdings will get money for the land their depot resides on. Or money to break the lease
I think the main aim for HAL is the imminent construction of a very long strip of tarmac suitable for landing commercial airliners on, adjacent to their existing land.
 

Clarence Yard

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But I am assuming heathrow airport holdings will get money for the land their depot resides on. Or money to break the lease

I wouldn’t presume that because it isn’t their land but on this forum I’m not going into the details of other people’s contracts or asset ownership.

Generally speaking, HS2 has to make good the loss for transport undertakings by funding replacement facilities, not providing cash compensation.
 

matt_world2004

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I wouldn’t presume that because it isn’t their land but on this forum I’m not going into the details of other people’s contracts or asset ownership.

Generally speaking, HS2 has to make good the loss for transport undertakings by funding replacement facilities, not providing cash compensation.
Then if it isn't their land they don't really deserve anything...
 
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