Heathrow Express GWR Contract

[Clarence Yard]

Then if it isn't their land they don't really deserve anything...

If they lease land, own assets on it or even in the case Hull Trains who were access beneficiaries of nearby land and facilities, then HS2 has to pay for alternative facilities for those who are affected by the scheme.

That principle is well established and enshrined in the parliamentary approval processes so binding undertakings have to be given to affected parties as part of giving that approval.

 

[matt_world2004]

If they lease land, own assets on it or even in the case Hull Trains who were access beneficiaries of nearby land and facilities, then HS2 has to pay for alternative facilities for those who are affected by the scheme.

That principle is well established and enshrined in the parliamentary approval processes so binding undertakings have to be given to affected parties as part of giving that approval.

Yes if they lease land they get compensated for the lease being broken . They should receive that compensation regardless of if they have a use for the land afterward or not.

 

[Reliablebeam]

The 769s are needed to provide the slack in the 387 fleet in the short term to allow some of the units to operate Heathrow Express services.
As I understand it;
769s enter service on current 165 worked services out of Reading Depot.
The displaced 165s return to their previous workings on the GWML in place of some 387s.
The displaced 387s are refurbished for and then start working Heathrow Express services.
Crossrail take over stopping services on the GWML out to Reading, freeing up the 165s previously reintroduced to those services.
The displaced 165s transfer to the Bristol area, leaving just a few at Reading for routes not able to be worked by 769s.

The two projects are definitely linked, the 769s are needed to kick the whole thing off.

Thanks for the info, am I reading this right, that those of us on the Didcot-Paddington run now get to lose our new electric trains, the ones we put up with years of disruption for, to see the return of large numbers of turbo workings? Very retrograde step, not happy to read this.

I'm a fairly frequent user of the Hex and I was wondering whether some 387's might do a better job.

 

[Non Multi]

Thanks for the info, am I reading this right, that those of us on the Didcot-Paddington run now get to lose our new electric trains, the ones we put up with years of disruption for, to see the return of large numbers of turbo workings? Very retrograde step, not happy to read this.

Hopwood & Co are going to get the stink eye from passengers that have to ride the 2 car Turbo on the newly electrified railway.

 

[The Ham]

Hopwood & Co are going to get the stink eye from passengers that have to ride the 2 car Turbo on the newly electrified railway.

Maybe, but it depends on:

- how long they are used for
- when they are going to be used (it's going to upset a lot less people of they are mostly off peak or mainly focused on quieter services)

 

[F Great Eastern]

Hopwood & Co are going to get the stink eye from passengers that have to ride the 2 car Turbo on the newly electrified railway.

The whole thing makes no sense to me. It's one of the stupidest things I've seen in a long while where we're essentially withdrawing a batch of 20 year old trains to give a second life to a batch of 30 year old tired units whilst at the same time sending turbos back onto routes that they were previously displaced from.

Surely one of the following would be far more sensible.

Option 1
Do nothing at all for now. Wait for the class 379s to become free that are already to airport spec, refurbish them, put them on Heathrow Express and then withdraw the 332s without a massive vehicle cascade and without downgrading anyone's travel experience.

Option 2
Replace the 332s with 387s, backfill for the 387s with other electric stock, leave the turbos where they are.

All this seems to be more about finding work for converted class 319s more than anything. The only people who will benefit from this are the ROSCO who owns the 319s/769s and manufacturing a reason to find work for old trains that will most likely result in trains half their age being parked up and scrapped.

 

[JN114]

This really isn’t the thread for it but fine:

1) May 2019: 769s replace (directly) 387s to allow them to go away for mods.

2a) December 2019: 387s return and replace 332s AND

2b) 345s replace 387s as Crossrail West services are Introduced AND

2c) 387s replace 769s on Mainline work

3a) Some point after: 769s replace Turbos elsewhere

3b) Turbos move west.

Some 769s will replace Turbos directly from May 2019. But we’re not going to be seeing Turbos back on mainline suburban workings en-masse.

 

[matt_world2004]

This really isn’t the thread for it but fine:

1) May 2019: 769s replace (directly) 387s to allow them to go away for mods.

2a) December 2019: 387s return and replace 332s AND

2b) 345s replace 387s as Crossrail West services are Introduced AND

2c) 387s replace 769s on Mainline work

3a) Some point after: 769s replace Turbos elsewhere

3b) Turbos move west.

Some 769s will replace Turbos directly from May 2019. But we’re not going to be seeing Turbos back on mainline suburban workings en-masse.

It seems quite bizarre that they are not keepong the 332s until at least the crossrail transition is complete.

 

[MatthewRead]

The 769s are needed to provide the slack in the 387 fleet in the short term to allow some of the units to operate Heathrow Express services.
As I understand it;
769s enter service on current 165 worked services out of Reading Depot.
The displaced 165s return to their previous workings on the GWML in place of some 387s.
The displaced 387s are refurbished for and then start working Heathrow Express services.
Crossrail take over stopping services on the GWML out to Reading, freeing up the 165s previously reintroduced to those services.
The displaced 165s transfer to the Bristol area, leaving just a few at Reading for routes not able to be worked by 769s.

The two projects are definitely linked, the 769s are needed to kick the whole thing off.

Can't wait for this I'll get to hear 319's on the GWML or be it paritally running on electric power and on diesel for the rest

 

[swt_passenger]

It seems quite bizarre that they are not keepong the 332s until at least the crossrail transition is complete.

Maybe their depot is being flattened...

 

[matt_world2004]

Maybe their depot is being flattened...

Couldnt they go in the gwr depot?

 

[swt_passenger]

Couldnt they go in the gwr depot?

I don’t know. Isn’t it (HST?) planned to be gone by then as well?

 

[JN114]

The GWR side of Old Oak is already almost all gone. 332s aren’t route cleared on the mainline beyond Airport Jn; and aren’t fitted with safety systems that allow them to operate off their existing route.

 

[JonathanH]

The GWR side of Old Oak is already almost all gone. 332s aren’t route cleared on the mainline beyond Airport Jn; and aren’t fitted with safety systems that allow them to operate off their existing route.

It doesn't have any wires either does it?

 

[hwl]

It seems quite bizarre that they are not keepong the 332s until at least the crossrail transition is complete.

May be they need to swap from ATP to ETCS in one go...

In reality this is all about keeping OOC (HEx) depot demolition off the HS2 critical path.

 

[Clarence Yard]

This really isn’t the thread for it but fine:

1) May 2019: 769s replace (directly) 387s to allow them to go away for mods.

2a) December 2019: 387s return and replace 332s AND

2b) 345s replace 387s as Crossrail West services are Introduced AND

2c) 387s replace 769s on Mainline work

3a) Some point after: 769s replace Turbos elsewhere

3b) Turbos move west.

Some 769s will replace Turbos directly from May 2019. But we’re not going to be seeing Turbos back on mainline suburban workings en-masse.

Not quite.

First 769 into service will be have to be in April 2019 to meet the 387 conversion programme and there will have to be some shuffle round to release 3 car Turbos onto mainline duties because not enough train crew can be trained in time to allow for direct replacement. Hence the need in the current plan to keep them manned by Reading drivers in the first instance. The mainline duties, which was the very original plan to utilise the 769 stock first off, see too many drivers from the three main LTV depots on each unit diagram to make it work easily or efficiently and that amount of training need would put huge delivery risk into the whole programme.

This way also allows for a phased route clearance programme, if NR don’t screw it up.

 

[Reliablebeam]

Not quite.

First 769 into service will be have to be in April 2019 to meet the 387 conversion programme and there will have to be some shuffle round to release 3 car Turbos onto mainline duties because not enough train crew can be trained in time to allow for direct replacement. Hence the need in the current plan to keep them manned by Reading drivers in the first instance. The mainline duties, which was the very original plan to utilise the 769 stock first off, see too many drivers from the three main LTV depots on each unit diagram to make it work easily or efficiently and that amount of training need would put huge delivery risk into the whole programme.

This way also allows for a phased route clearance programme, if NR don’t screw it up.

Thanks for your contributions! They always make good reading, so sorry for sounding grumpy.

So this looks like mainline users get stiffed with losing our new trains, with the unwelcome return of diesels which, icing on the cake, will run for miles under that expensive and unsightly infrastructure that we were told was going to be second coming.

Sorry if this seems off topic but I think if this hare brained scheme is going to degrade services for us long suffering commuters I think this is worthy of discussion.

 

[TEW]

Thanks for your contributions! They always make good reading, so sorry for sounding grumpy.

So this looks like mainline users get stiffed with losing our new trains, with the unwelcome return of diesels which, icing on the cake, will run for miles under that expensive and unsightly infrastructure that we were told was going to be second coming.

Sorry if this seems off topic but I think if this hare brained scheme is going to degrade services for us long suffering commuters I think this is worthy of discussion.

It will only be in the short term though, and will only affect a relatively small number of services. Only 12 out of 45 units are being transferred to HEX, so the majority will be doing exactly the same duties as they are today. And then come December 2019, with Crossrail operation out to Reading, the Turbos will again be banished. The 345s will take over much of the current 387 work on the stopping services out as far as Reading, leaving 387s to run the services out to Didcot and Newbury. The Turbos at that point will move west, to join the majority of the fleet around Bristol, with just the rump left over for the few lines not suitable for 769 operation.

 

[The Ham]

It will only be in the short term though, and will only affect a relatively small number of services. Only 12 out of 45 units are being transferred to HEX, so the majority will be doing exactly the same duties as they are today. And then come December 2019, with Crossrail operation out to Reading, the Turbos will again be banished. The 345s will take over much of the current 387 work on the stopping services out as far as Reading, leaving 387s to run the services out to Didcot and Newbury. The Turbos at that point will move west, to join the majority of the fleet around Bristol, with just the rump left over for the few lines not suitable for 769 operation.

Quite, also from what others have said the use of Turbos will be limited to from one timetable change to the next (although I'm sure that it may even be less time than that in that not all the trains can be worked on at once and so it some will stay for longer than others).

 

[Clarence Yard]

In some cases it will only be a matter of a few weeks. It really won’t be that extensive, for the very reasons you outlined.

If Crossrail manage to get ahead on the 345 scenario that would be great and will sort quite a few issues out but the DfT wanted a plan that didn’t rely on them operating any services earlier than they are currently planning to do.

Different stock scenarios were looked at but the fundamental problem remained. OOC had to be totally vacated by December 2019 and there was no room at Reading to accommodate the HEx units. Langley was not going to be built in time and the cost of providing it had gone through the roof.

 

[HowardGWR]

I'm a fairly frequent user of the Hex and I was wondering whether some 387's might do a better job.

That is an interesting comment. In what way does the 332 do a worse job than the 387 would?

 

[Kite159]

And do you have a back-up plan when the 769s turn out to be absolutely rubbish in the real world?

 

[Reliablebeam]

That is an interesting comment. In what way does the 332 do a worse job than the 387 would?

Purely from a technical perspective I would have thought the 332's are now a bit isolated in what's become Electrostar land and limited to 100mph.

I don't object to the idea of using the 387's, I can see the economic sense, I just object to it being used to degrade everyone else's service.

 

[paulravuslante]

Purely from a technical perspective I would have thought the 332's are now a bit isolated in what's become Electrostar land and limited to 100mph.

What’s more the acceleration of a 332 pales into comparison when compared with a 387, as I have noticed when the two types are ‘racing’ out of Paddington

 

[TEW]

I don't object to the idea of using the 387's, I can see the economic sense, I just object to it being used to degrade everyone else's service.

As you have already been told, but appear to have chosen to ignore, it isn't being used to degrade everyone else's service. It is using 387s that would otherwise be spare in the long term because of the 'deferring' of electrification to Oxford and additional Crossrail services on the GWML.

 

[cactustwirly]

As you have already been told, but appear to have chosen to ignore, it isn't being used to degrade everyone else's service. It is using 387s that would otherwise be spare in the long term because of the 'deferring' of electrification to Oxford and additional Crossrail services on the GWML.

But they aren't free when they get overhauled!
So the long suffering Thames Valley commuters will have to suffer old unreliable trains which are completely unsuitable for the Thames Valley.

 

[Mikey C]

What’s more the acceleration of a 332 pales into comparison when compared with a 387, as I have noticed when the two types are ‘racing’ out of Paddington

We need a railway version of Top Gear. We can have a drag race out of Paddington between a 332, 387 and 800!

The 387s are 4 car 20m units, whereas the 332s are 4 or 5 car 23m units, a single 387 would be lost in the long Heathrow platforms...

 

[samuelmorris]

Keeping an eye on this with close interest - not a fan of the displacement of 387s for 769s or 16x but I can see the idea behind it and anything which reduces the cost of HS2 is probably a boon at this point. The 3-power source 769s could be very interesting...

 

[jdxn]

It seems quite bizarre that they are not keepong the 332s until at least the crossrail transition is complete.

Given how unreliable they are in adverse weather, perhaps not. Any hint of a snowflake and they just don't work.

 

[Non Multi]

And do you have a back-up plan when the 769s turn out to be absolutely rubbish in the real world?

Interesting point. There's now so many recently built EMUs without a future use I'd expect ROSCOs may look at bi-mode conversion for these instead. More train builders are already offering new build bi-/tri-modes. Even if the 769s are lemons, eventually there will be a cascade of the virtually all the remaining Thames Valley Turbos.