Heathrow Express GWR Contract

[Agent_Squash]

387s will probably make a very capable airport train if refurbished well, which is something GWR has a reputation for doing. While it does seem a bit wasteful refurbishing near new trains, it near enough removes 100mph operation from the main line and removes a microfleet from the WCML.

Perhaps the old refurbished HST seating?

 

[jimm]

What an absolutely ridiculous idea in just about every way.

Ironing board fitted 387s = no premium service (like GatEx, which appears to carry mostly fresh air in its new form unless it's one of the through services from Brighton which isn't really GatEx).

Use of 387s in the first place = fewer for GWR = less effective GWML regional express service.

Premium fares retained for a non-premium service.

Ludicrous. If it needs to go away, just get rid of it.

So you somehow worked out all that lot from the not exactly very detailed First Group announcement.

Quite a leap, especially when it looks like a lot of surgery will be done on the interiors one way and another.

GWR will manage the introduction of a new, dedicated fleet of trains for the Heathrow Express service, which will be specially converted by December 2019 to provide first class carriages, high speed Wi-Fi, additional luggage racks and on-board entertainment.

Weren't the 387s ordered before there were some cutbacks to the extent of GW wiring, so there should be some slack in the fleet anyway (from not serving Oxford and so on). It also depends how modified the 387s are, they might be completely gutted and some other, more comfortable seat fitted. It does make me think however that Heathrow don't see much of a future for the service once Crossrail is up and running, and this is the first step in getting rid of it.

What cutbacks? Oxford wiring is deferred not cancelled - it will mean there is a bit of slack in the fleet to allow conversion work as an interim step.

If more 387/1s are needed at some point to bolster the GWR allocation, say if the wires get to Oxford in the middle of CP6, the six sets currently at c2c will need a new home in 2021 when their new Aventras are delivered.

 

[Kite159]

Good news that the future of the Heathrow Express services has been secured. At least Heathrow Passengers at Paddington won't have to fight in the melee of Paddington Low Level for the correct Crossrail service to roll in from the east, with minimal dwell times, no luggage space and being busy with commuters for the likes of Ealing. They can relax being able to board a dedicated airport service from the main station, not having to rush.

Hopefully the 387s can be refurbished to a decent airport spec interior, maybe 2+1 seats in First Class.

 

[Class465fan]

I do hope they get rid of those dreadful ironing board seats.

 

[Failed Unit]

I see its full on outrage mode of jumping in feet first before the finer details have been announced then?



I see nothing that states the premium fares that are currently charged will still be charged in the future on this press release - unless ive missed it? With the whole Oyster and paper ticket thing not quite sorted they may just go with TfL pricing for it as they do elsewhere on GWR?



The press release says these units will be refurbed and luggage racks installed so how do you know that the legroom will be lacking?




i understand your frustrations here but im surprised that you can say for sure that changing at Farringdon on to Crossrail for this journey as i am assuming there will be plenty of people doing the same journey and on trains that will have a mix of longitudinal and traverse seating so you may end up standing for most if not all the way to Heathrow and thats not the same as the PIcc line? Im sure ive read on here in other threads that they reckon Crossail will be pretty much full(ish) a year or two after it opens.

By all means say you will boycott HEx but as you dont know how the journey will be on crossrail it seems daft to make such assumptions on comfort and quality of journey before you have even taken a trip on it.

Lets say worse case the train is always full, as long as I can phyiscally get on board then this is fine. Remember travelling between Paddington and Kings Cross you don't always have this luxary. Then I would expect even with the extra stops speed will be king.

However you do raise a good point, the loss of people to Crossrail may make the tube more bearable on both routes, so it could be a case of going back to it.

You don't always get a seat on HEx, weekend in particular when a 4 coach train turns up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You don't always get a seat on HEx, weekend in particular when a 4 coach train turns up.

For a premium service that is unacceptable.

 

[NickBucks]

Surely this announcement has implications for the GWR franchise which I understand is or has already been extended via a management contract to 2022 ? If GWR were not to receive another franchise or extension I would have thought that today's announcement would have been couched differently. I cannot envisage GWR running the HEX service until 2028 if they loose the principal London/ Bristol/ South Wales/ West of England franchise. I wonder if, as part of the agreement, the proposed split franchise ideas has been quietly dropped ? Certainly looks as if GWR are now the DfT's favourite overtaking Stagecoach & Virgin.

 

[rebmcr]

do 769s retain the ability to run on third rail, or is that stripped out in favour of diesel?

I see no reason that the Class 769 cannot retain full dual voltage capability.

I don't think that Class 769 conversion removes 750V dc operation, though?

Shouldn't do, although I don't know if the current conversions have got protection (I'm guessing a diode would work?) between the gensets and the shoes, seeing as the shoes are being removed for the current ones. Probably wouldn't be too difficult to implement though. Might also need some cab modifications if the DC select switch is on the first 769s as a Diesel select, to enable switching between the 3 power sources.

The ones for Northern will lose the shoegear, but a spokeswoman for Porterbrook said the conversions can be adapted for different needs — implying at least Diesel+750, and maybe even Diesel+750+25k variants.

If they can be used on third rail, then the North Downs would be ideal for them...

No, they are going to be tri-mode, for exactly that reason. Getting more capacity onto that route is key. The 769 units will also be fitted with additional luggage racks.

What's the source for that?

 

[rebmcr]

Surely this announcement has implications for the GWR franchise which I understand is or has already been extended via a management contract to 2022 ? If GWR were not to receive another franchise or extension I would have thought that today's announcement would have been couched differently. I cannot envisage GWR running the HEX service until 2028 if they loose the principal London/ Bristol/ South Wales/ West of England franchise. I wonder if, as part of the agreement, the proposed split franchise ideas has been quietly dropped ? Certainly looks as if GWR are now the DfT's favourite overtaking Stagecoach & Virgin.

If this TUPE contract has DfT approval as reported, they can simply include it in the next franchise spec and require any winner to pick up the operation.

 

[rebmcr]

Hopefully the 387s can be refurbished to a decent airport spec interior, maybe 2+1 seats in First Class.

There are not multiple classes on HEx. Whoops, I was wrong!

 

[Kite159]

There are not multiple classes on HEx.

I must have been dreaming when I saw the 1+1 First* class area on a 332 then (*or whatever HEX calls it, Express Class?)

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely this announcement has implications for the GWR franchise which I understand is or has already been extended via a management contract to 2022 ? If GWR were not to receive another franchise or extension I would have thought that today's announcement would have been couched differently. I cannot envisage GWR running the HEX service until 2028 if they loose the principal London/ Bristol/ South Wales/ West of England franchise. I wonder if, as part of the agreement, the proposed split franchise ideas has been quietly dropped ? Certainly looks as if GWR are now the DfT's favourite overtaking Stagecoach & Virgin.

Have you actually bothered reading the linked announcement? It already deals with the possibility of First not retaining the GW franchise, in the editors notes. You do have to scroll down a bit though...

 

[Failed Unit]

I must have been dreaming when I saw the 1+1 First* class area on a 332 then (*or whatever HEX calls it, Express Class?)

£28 one way for a single journey. Is that the most expensive single fare on national rail?

 

[IrishDave]

There are not multiple classes on HEx.

I must have been dreaming when I saw the 1+1 First* class area on a 332 then (*or whatever HEX calls it, Express Class?)

There *are* two classes on HEx, First and Express (Standard). There is only one class on Heathrow Connect, though.

See section 5 of the HEx Conditions of Carriage:
https://www.heathrowexpress.com/conditions-of-carriage

 

[swt_passenger]

[tri-mode]
What's the source for that?

“Clarence Yard” works for GWR doesn’t he?

 

[northwichcat]

Can someone clarify does 769s on Thames Valley mean that 769s will be running services which were set to remain Turbos, or will the 769s only run services which were set to become 387 operated?

 

[northwichcat]

The ones for Northern will lose the shoegear, but a spokeswoman for Porterbrook said the conversions can be adapted for different needs — implying at least Diesel+750, and maybe even Diesel+750+25k variants.

Porterbrook's promotional video for the 769 called it a tri-mode train and referred to it being possible to operate on overheads, third rail or diesel.

 

[paulravuslante]

£28 one way for a single journey. Is that the most expensive single fare on national rail?

No, £501 is the most expensive single fare according to this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...le-Wight-Derbyshire-doesn-t-half-country.html

I assume you meant to ask whether it was the most expensive fare per journey time / distance however?

 

[Failed Unit]

No, £501 is the most expensive single fare according to this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...le-Wight-Derbyshire-doesn-t-half-country.html

I assume you meant to ask whether it was the most expensive fare per journey time / distance however?

Yes, that is what I meant. If you were paying that per mile say from London - Leeds not many people would be in 1st.

 

[The_Engineer]

Can someone clarify does 769s on Thames Valley mean that 769s will be running services which were set to remain Turbos, or will the 769s only run services which were set to become 387 operated?

Though it isn't clear from the statement today, it seems that it will be both. Class 769 could be introduced on what would be 387 work (e.g. Reading - Newbury from Jan 2019) and dmu work (e.g. Paddington - Bedwyn, Reading - Gatwick, Reading - Didcot - Banbury) where some 25kV or 750V dc running is involved.

 

[Failed Unit]

Can someone clarify does 769s on Thames Valley mean that 769s will be running services which were set to remain Turbos, or will the 769s only run services which were set to become 387 operated?

I have interpreted it as services that are set to remain Turbo's. They will be very welcome on the Reading - Redhill (and beyond route) - whenever I have used this route they are bursting at the seams.

 

[JN114]

Other than the fact that Scotrail are trying to secure the off-lease units for the short term, the fact that the 16x and 365s really don't have that much in common beyond looks makes it a bit of a non-starter. Plus the fact that it only acts as a short term solution, the 769s, whilst not perfect, allow the bulk of the turbos to shuffle off westwards to help improve the service there.

Trying being the operative word. Who’s to say they’re the only interested operator?

And the 16x and 365s have plenty in common - doors, brakes, suspension, running gear, control electronics are all very similar, if not identical. Plus a fair amount of the groundwork for GW getting 365s was done a few years ago when they were due to be cascaded 365s. Floor heights, and thus stepping distances are the same as 16x; so platform works will not be required.

I just don’t see the 769s making any useful impact into Turbo cascades. They can’t replace Greenfords. They can’t replace Marlows. They can’t replace the Cotswold units. They’re completely unsuited for the North Downs both mechanically and internally. They perhaps - just about - make sense on the Henleys, Windsors and Basingstokes. So we’re going to replace 4 (+1 spare?) Turbos? I just don’t buy it. 5 Turbos isn’t going to make a meaningful contribution in the West. And Crossrail will release plenty of 387s to other duties (on top of the 12 for HEX) once that starts in Dec 2019. Are the released 387s really going to sit around idle then?

Read the press-releases. “GWR has also sourced additional rolling stock to release the Class 387s for the modifications, ahead of the start of Elizabeth Line operation to Reading from December 2019”. Nothing about a Turbo cascade. Something short term, to enable 12 387s to receive HEX modifications. 365s would make a lot of sense. 319s - perhaps. 769s? Why would they need to be lumbered with a Diesel engine? They’re a Solution looking for a problem to solve.

Maybe I’m wrong; but it’s rather telling that the only planned operators of 769s have had them foisted upon them by the DfT. Not one operator has actively expressed a desire to have them - Porterbrook damn near cancelled the project before the DfT got involved. What does that tell you about TOCs opinions of them? Why, in this private venture, would that suddenly change?

 

[Clarence Yard]

The North Downs is exactly where they are heading - all 9 diagrams eventually. The 19 cl.769 units will be replacing the bulk of the remaining Reading Turbo diagrams, probably 16 out of the remaining 23 (post Dec 2018) Turbo diagrams. The Turbos will then head west. Their exact use in the west will be subject to the new GWR DA negotiations ("DA3") which are due to start shortly.

A lot of work has been done by FG/GWR to assess both their suitability for the North Downs route and the internal alterations needed to operate the Gatwick service.

 

[JN114]

The North Downs is exactly where they are heading - all 9 diagrams eventually. The 19 cl.769 units will be replacing the bulk of the remaining Reading Turbo diagrams, probably 16 out of the remaining 23 (post Dec 2018) Turbo diagrams. The Turbos will then head west. Their exact use in the west will be subject to the new GWR DA negotiations ("DA3") which are due to start shortly.

A lot of work has been done by FG/GWR to assess both their suitability for the North Downs route and the internal alterations needed to operate the Gatwick service.

Wow, colour me shocked; but I defer to your greater knowledge on these matters. I look forward to seeing what modifications are made to enhance their suitability.

 

[HowardGWR]

Wow, colour me shocked; but I defer to your greater knowledge on these matters. I look forward to seeing what modifications are made to enhance their suitability.

Perhaps in future all speculation should be first directed to our helpful colleague. I have just spent a long time reading above what in 30 seconds reading from Clarence Yard has made clear.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A lot of work has been done by FG/GWR to assess both their suitability for the North Downs route and the internal alterations needed to operate the Gatwick service.

They have of course spent most of their lives operating Gatwick services.

 

[507021]

If anything it makes things worse for W&B as Porterbrook now have 32 x 769s to produce and only 5 of those are for W&B.

I thought it was 35 units to be converted?

 

[northwichcat]

I thought it was 35 units to be converted?

19 for GWR, 5 for W&B and 8 for Northern. There's a rumour Northern may get 3 extra instead of 12 x class 150 vehicles from GWR but that's not been confirmed and if GWR can now release more Turbos west they might not need to keep those additional 150s anymore.

 

[Class465fan]

So when will the first 387 be taken out of service for its modification?

 

[507021]

19 for GWR, 5 for W&B and 8 for Northern. There's a rumour Northern may get 3 extra instead of 12 x class 150 vehicles from GWR but that's not been confirmed and if GWR can now release more Turbos west they might not need to keep those additional 150s anymore.

I was including the extra three for Northern as I thought they were a confirmed order, or at least this post suggests they are.