Heathrow Express GWR Contract

[Joe Paxton]

This bit is in the original linked article:

"As part of the arrangements, the Department for Transport will progress the development of the proposed new western and southern rail links to Heathrow. These new links would make it quicker and easier for people from the across the south and west of England, and south Wales, to get to the airport."

Note Western and Southern...

Yep, that backs up said hypothesis.

Whether anything on this front happen any time soon is another question... especially if it is linked to the plans for the third runway, which are just a tad controversial...

 

[Clarence Yard]

I'm not a massive fan of the DfT, but they've done literally nothing here. It's an agreement between two private companies that'll have been approved by the independent regulator, but to blame the DfT for this (and there is plenty to blame them for!) is stupid.

Actually the whole thing has had to be agreed by the DfT as franchises can't do this kind of stuff on their own. The ORR has no role here.

 

[absolutelymilk]

19 x 769 are being leased which will release Turbos from LTV services (North Downs, Henley and off peak Bourne End) for a reverse cascade to cover the 387 pre-December 2019, then post December 2019 the bulk of the LTV Turbos will go west to replace 15x & provide units for possible extra services (Bristol Metro).

If true, then this could be good timing for the Wales and Borders franchise - just as they need more diesel stock due to the 2020 PRM deadline, the GWR 769s would go off-lease.....

 

[northwichcat]

If true, then this could be good timing for the Wales and Borders franchise - just as they need more diesel stock due to the 2020 PRM deadline, the GWR 769s would go off-lease.....

They won't go off-lease, it's 16xs (for the South West) and 387s (for Heathrow Express) being freed up not 769s. It's 19 x 769s instead of 12 x 387s and a few Turbos on Thames Valley, presumably the redundant DMUs are to either allow extra capacity for GWR or to allow 150s to be released to Northern or a combination of the two.

If anything it makes things worse for W&B as Porterbrook now have 32 x 769s to produce and only 5 of those are for W&B. It'll also only mean even if Porterbrook can produce extra 769s by January 2020 the maximum W&B will be able to get is around 25 sets in total (including the 5 they have already secured) unless West Midlands release their 319s early or Northern get something in lieu of 319s.

 

[matt_world2004]

This sounds like the first step to either closing hex down or standardising the fare structure to that of Crossrails. By TUPEing the staff over there is going to be less job losses if they do close the service down.

 

[Mikey C]

A massive boost to the 769 programme if true

I assume that it's only the Marlow trains which will require keeping any 165s?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This gives some details of the 387 modifications, and also says the deal has DfT approval:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/gwr-to-manage-heathrow-express-service.html

GWR will operate Heathrow Express services using its Bombardier Transportation Class 387 Electrostar EMUs. A dedicated pool of 12 of the EMUs will be modified by December 2019 to provide first class accommodation, high speed wi-fi, additional luggage racks and on-board entertainment

A massive boost to the 769 programme if true
I assume that it's only the Marlow trains which will require keeping any 165s?

Yes, it really has to work now!
Nothing to stop 769s replacing 165s on the Marlow run.
​

 

[4-SUB 4732]

387s working from Paddington to Heathrow; some continuing on towards Newbury or Swindon? And some then with DC capability going down to somewhere like Guildford, Woking, Basingstoke?

 

[Joe Paxton]

This sounds like the first step to either closing hex down or standardising the fare structure to that of Crossrails. By TUPEing the staff over there is going to be less job losses if they do close the service down.

Regarding the TUPEing of staff across, that's also a good point.

If there were question marks about the future of the HEx service, the last thing it'd need for its survival would be for staff to start an industrial dispute - in such a scenario, strikes would likely hasten its demise. By subsuming HEOC operating staff into GWR (and its successors), that issue at least is nullified.

 

[IrishDave]

They won't go off-lease. It's 19 x 769s instead of 12 x 387s and a few Turbos on Thames Valley, presumably the redundant DMUs are to either allow extra capacity for GWR or to allow 150s to be released to Northern or a combination of the two.

With the transfer of Reading services to Crossrail, GWR will have many 387s surplus to requirements by December 2019, certainly at least the 12 needed to cover HEx. So the extra stock is only *needed* in order to release some of the 387s for conversion to HEx interiors: after December 2019, GWR would have no need of the extra stock on the mainline.

By using 769s, they can first be used on the mainline to cover 387s while they are modified, and then they can put all 19 769s to use on the Thames Valley branches and the North Downs.

That said, do 769s retain the ability to run on third rail, or is that stripped out in favour of diesel? If they can be used on third rail, then the North Downs would be ideal for them...

 

[absolutelymilk]

They won't go off-lease, it's 16xs (for the South West) and 387s (for Heathrow Express) being freed up not 769s. It's 19 x 769s instead of 12 x 387s and a few Turbos on Thames Valley, presumably the redundant DMUs are to either allow extra capacity for GWR or to allow 150s to be released to Northern or a combination of the two.

If anything it makes things worse for W&B as Porterbrook now have 32 x 769s to produce and only 5 of those are for W&B. It'll also only mean even if Porterbrook can produce extra 769s by January 2020 the maximum W&B will be able to get is around 25 sets in total (including the 5 they have already secured) unless West Midlands release their 319s early or Northern get something in lieu of 319s.

Sorry, I read Domh245's post as saying that the 769s were a temporary lease and both they and the Turbos would be freed up by Crossrail by December 2019. So the 769s will be permanently based on LTV services? Provides a good incentive for more rolling elecrification....

 

[swt_passenger]

This gives some details of the 387 modifications, and also says the deal has DfT approval:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/gwr-to-manage-heathrow-express-service.html

The same statement is made in the original quote from GWR, yet it didn't stop a number of posts assuming that the 387s would transfer 'as is' complete with their existing interiors...

 

[IrishDave]

Nothing to stop 769s replacing 165s on the Marlow run.

Yes there is - the track layout at Bourne End doesn't allow anything longer than a 2-car to get to Marlow, diesel or electric. (Indeed, that's precisely why the electrification of the branch was shelved.)

 

[Joe Paxton]

The same statement is made in the original quote from GWR, yet it didn't stop a number of posts assuming that the 387s would transfer 'as is' complete with their existing interiors...

Be fair, it's a bit much to expect people to read the source isn't it, before jumping to judgement...

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, it really has to work now!
Nothing to stop 769s replacing 165s on the Marlow run.
​

Isn't the issue there that only 2 car trains can reverse out of Bourne End to reach Marlow?

 

[cactustwirly]

A massive boost to the 769 programme if true

I assume that it's only the Marlow trains which will require keeping any 165s?

Yes, and so will the Greenfords

 

[The_Engineer]

That said, do 769s retain the ability to run on third rail, or is that stripped out in favour of diesel? I

Technically, I see no reason that the Class 769 cannot retain full dual voltage capability. The diesel-alternator-rectifier sets produce 750V dc to feed into the present link to the traction systems that is (on Class 319) fed either from the third rail or via the transformer-rectifier for 25kV ac. I think all the new diesel set and associated fuel tank and cooler systems go on the TSO car which has little underframe equipment.

 

[cactustwirly]

Hmm, not so sure about the 769s, they wouldn't be able to work on the mainline, especially peak time services to Didcot.

 

[Domh245]

Technically, I see no reason that the Class 769 cannot retain full dual voltage capability. The diesel-alternator-rectifier sets produce 750V dc to feed into the present link to the traction systems that is (on Class 319) fed either from the third rail or via the transformer-rectifier for 25kV ac. I think all the new diesel set and associated fuel tank and cooler systems go on the TSO car which has little underframe equipment.

DTS/CO vehicles have the diesel equipment fitted, the two intermediate vehicles remain as they were.

 

[Clarence Yard]

That said, do 769s retain the ability to run on third rail, or is that stripped out in favour of diesel? If they can be used on third rail, then the North Downs would be ideal for them...

No, they are going to be tri-mode, for exactly that reason. Getting more capacity onto that route is key. The 769 units will also be fitted with additional luggage racks.

The Greenford Car, Marlow Donkey and Worcester "shacks" are the only Turbo workings that can't go 769. A 3 car 769 version has been looked at but moving equipment causes both weight and space issues on the middle car and you lose the toilet facility. Not being pursued.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes there is - the track layout at Bourne End doesn't allow anything longer than a 2-car to get to Marlow, diesel or electric. (Indeed, that's precisely why the electrification of the branch was shelved.)

Ah... Forgot that.

 

[matt_world2004]

The reason why I can see this happening

1.)GwR will have a relationship with other operators of which it will be more efficently placed to negotiate revenue share/timetabling etc etc.
2.) operational reliability if both gwr and hex will improve as duties can be changed based on driver knowlege rather than company
3.)It will allow hex to be closed down quite easily if revenue does not meet expectations.
4 )Stopping patterns can be changed for customer conveiniance

 

[The_Engineer]

Hmm, not so sure about the 769s, they wouldn't be able to work on the mainline, especially peak time services to Didcot.

Why not? They are lower speed (100mph) than the 387s, perhaps lower performance due to their added diesel weight, but they have the 25kV capability.....

 

[The_Engineer]

DTS/CO vehicles have the diesel equipment fitted, the two intermediate vehicles remain as they were.

Fair enough! I don't think that Class 769 conversion removes 750V dc operation, though?

 

[Domh245]

Fair enough! I don't think that Class 769 conversion removes 750V dc operation, though?

Shouldn't do, although I don't know if the current conversions have got protection (I'm guessing a diode would work?) between the gensets and the shoes, seeing as the shoes are being removed for the current ones. Probably wouldn't be too difficult to implement though. Might also need some cab modifications if the DC select switch is on the first 769s as a Diesel select, to enable switching between the 3 power sources.

 

[The_Engineer]

Shouldn't do, although I don't know if the current conversions have got protection (I'm guessing a diode would work?) between the gensets and the shoes, seeing as the shoes are being removed for the current ones. Probably wouldn't be too difficult to implement though. Might also need some cab modifications if the DC select switch is on the first 769s as a Diesel select, to enable switching between the 3 power sources.

I don't have access to the present Class 319 power circuit diagram, but I THINK that the DC shoegear side is already isolated from the DC produced by the 25kV ac source, otherwise the shoegear would be live on 25kV operation - which I am sure is not allowed on safety grounds. I would think a DC contactor is switched by the dc select switch.

 

[JN114]

I remain to be convinced as to the 769s suitability as Turbo replacements - particularly on the steep gradients of the North Downs. They also won’t be able to replace the Cotswold unit, Marlow and Greenford branches. So Reading will *still* need Turbos.

Crossrail will ultimately release 22-24 387s; once you account for the Hayes, Readings, the Maidenhead peak extras, changes to the Didcot locals and so on. Ample to account for future capacity increases, Newburys, possibly even the Henley and Windsor branches. Now while it wouldn’t enable a 2nd Turbo cascade; a temporary, short-term small fleet of AC EMUs to release the 12 387s for HEX conversion would be all that’s required. Something readily available, and similar to GW’s existing fleet would be ideal. Much easier to train maintenance staff and drivers on something similar to what you already have, than a wholly new type. Now if only there was a fleet of AC Networkers in storage somewhere....

 

[Class465fan]

I remain to be convinced as to the 769s suitability as Turbo replacements - particularly on the steep gradients of the North Downs. They also won’t be able to replace the Cotswold unit, Marlow and Greenford branches. So Reading will *still* need Turbos.

Crossrail will ultimately release 22-24 387s; once you account for the Hayes, Readings, the Maidenhead peak extras, changes to the Didcot locals and so on. Ample to account for future capacity increases, Newburys, possibly even the Henley and Windsor branches. Now while it wouldn’t enable a 2nd Turbo cascade; a temporary, short-term small fleet of AC EMUs to release the 12 387s for HEX conversion would be all that’s required. Something readily available, and similar to GW’s existing fleet would be ideal. Much easier to train maintenance staff and drivers on something similar to what you already have, than a wholly new type. Now if only there was a fleet of AC Networkers in storage somewhere....

Class 365s? Some have recently being stored so they could use them as a short-term replacement during the 387s 'modifications'.

 

[pdeaves]

Isn't the issue there that only 2 car trains can reverse out of Bourne End to reach Marlow?

It may, just, be possible to squeeze in a 3-car with some track/signal modifications but nothing longer than that.

 

[Domh245]

Something readily available, and similar to GW’s existing fleet would be ideal. Much easier to train maintenance staff and drivers on something similar to what you already have, than a wholly new type. Now if only there was a fleet of AC Networkers in storage somewhere....

Other than the fact that Scotrail are trying to secure the off-lease units for the short term, the fact that the 16x and 365s really don't have that much in common beyond looks makes it a bit of a non-starter. Plus the fact that it only acts as a short term solution, the 769s, whilst not perfect, allow the bulk of the turbos to shuffle off westwards to help improve the service there.