thomasheywood
Member
There are new line diagrams on Elizabeth line trains that place the Heathrow stations under ‘special fares apply’, when did this change take place? Are zone 1-6 travelcards now no longer valid to Heathrow on the Elizabeth line?
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Heathrow Airport, no longer in zone 6?
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Surreytraveller
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Sounds like a bodge job. Like everything else involving fares on the Elizabeth Line.
Special fares apply, but it's also in Zone 6.
Special fares apply, but it's also in Zone 6.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Sounds like either a printing error or that you misread the diagram.
The old diagram is on the Ian Visits website here: https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/article...elizabeth-line-line-diagram-november-2022.jpg. At first glance it’s easy to think Heathrow is in the special fares zone.
The old diagram is on the Ian Visits website here: https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/article...elizabeth-line-line-diagram-november-2022.jpg. At first glance it’s easy to think Heathrow is in the special fares zone.
DaventryRabbit
Member
Can confirm Travelcards are valid to Heathrow Stations. I went there on Sat on the Elizabeth Line with no issues.
thomasheywood
Member
The new diagram that I saw makes it very plain that the Heathrow stations are out of the zones, they have their own separate warning that special fares apply…
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See here:
Heathrow ticketing is rather bizarre in that it's in zone 6 for travelcards, but has special (higher) fares for pay-as-you-go. So I think "Special fares apply" is more accurate than zone 6, but ideally they'd note about the travelcard validity too
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Crumbs, that’s a right mess.
What they've done is a poor job of explaining that Liz line PAYG single fares to/from Heathrow are higher (and were already higher, going back to the TfL Rail days) than the usual zonal fares, even though their stations are still in zone 6 for capping / Travelcard purposes* - as denoted by the Tube map and wider Rail & Tube map.
This is because Heathrow Airport, as owners of the track up to Airport Junction and stations on it, levy steep access charges for their use.
[* Not including Heathrow Express, who are not party to the Travelcard Agreement and can set their own fares.]
They remain valid as they have always been.
bnc2018
Member
I saw these the other day and thought it seemed alright. I get that it's more confusing for travelcards, but most people use PAYG and I always thought it was a bit disingenuous to say Heathrow was "zone 6", but when people check their statement they'll have been charged a higher fee.
londonbridge
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Indeed, the first time I decided to have a ride on the Lizzy line I boarded at Heathrow and got caught out when checking my PAYG afterwards as I’d forgotten about the Heathrow Premium.
redreni
Established Member
It is jarring. And it is wrong.
The point of having zones is that the fares should be zonal. As soon as you start charging arbitrary fares for certain lines and stations in violation of the zonal fare structure (such as on HS1 St Pancras to Stratford and the HX and EL to Heathrow and Piccadilly Line to Heathrow and on many of the National Rail lines in London), it becomes difficult to be transparent about fares.
The zones are still important for capping and Travelcards and U Zone tickets, so still need to be shown, so the maps absolutely shouldn't be showing Heathrow as outside the fare zones. But obviously they're getting grief from people who feel they've been ripped off (as, indeed, they have been) and feel that they should have been told the fares to Heathrow are higher than usual.
The point of having zones is that the fares should be zonal. As soon as you start charging arbitrary fares for certain lines and stations in violation of the zonal fare structure (such as on HS1 St Pancras to Stratford and the HX and EL to Heathrow and Piccadilly Line to Heathrow and on many of the National Rail lines in London), it becomes difficult to be transparent about fares.
The zones are still important for capping and Travelcards and U Zone tickets, so still need to be shown, so the maps absolutely shouldn't be showing Heathrow as outside the fare zones. But obviously they're getting grief from people who feel they've been ripped off (as, indeed, they have been) and feel that they should have been told the fares to Heathrow are higher than usual.
Joe Paxton
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If you are referring to the diagram, it's not wrong - it indicates that fares for travel to/from Heathrow are a bit different to normal (and I think this does need to be indicated).
If you are referring to the wider situation being wrong (i.e. the existence of said special fares), well that's fair game for debate (though I would say that, looking around the world, it's far from unusual for public transport serving an airport to carry a premium of some sort - in the grand scheme of things I don't think the situation at Heathrow is all that bad).
Haywain
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HS1 is outside of the fare zones and therefore zonal fares do not apply, as I am sure you know.
But they are not, because a premium has been added. You can debate the merits of that as much as you like, but the reality of the pricing situation should be shown and indeed it is. There's no easy way of showing it but the previous line diagram was presumably causing complaints.
The new one - across the board - seems simpler and more concise. For instance there was a huge waffle of text about Paddington and Liverpool Street (the NR station) which became completely incomprehensible on some of the smaller maps.
redreni
Established Member
I seem to be in a minority of one in thinking the map is wrong, so I'll double-check next time I'm on an EL train before digging my heels in too much.
It seemed to me when I last looked at it that West Drayton is shown, correctly, as being in zone 6 and the Heathrow stations are clearly shown as being in a different zone than West Drayton (or perhaps no zone - it isn't clear). To my mind, that's wrong. Maps in trains do not purport to tell you what the single fares are - anyone who uses PAYG for non-TfL National Rail journeys or mixed mode TfL / NR journeys can attest to that.
They do purport to tell you what zone stations are in, and the map in question fails to do that in the case of the Heathrow stations. And that has the obvious potential to mislead passengers holding a Travelcard or hoping to rely on daily capping based on the zones they have travelled in (hence this thread).
At its worst, it could cause somebody holding a Travelcard and wanting to go to Heathrow to alight at Hayes & Harlington, exit and then tap in on Oyster or Contactless, believing they'd reached the limit of their Travelcard's validity.
There is no reason why a text box couldn't have been added to the map explaining that special single fares apply to Heathrow, without messing up the way the zones are depicted.
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Anyone looking at the rail and tube services map would expect to be able to use their Travelcard on that line, and would only realise they can't if they looked at the "fares information" box bottom left. If they fail to spot that, Southeastern do clarify the point that Travelcards are not accepted, quite forcefully, at their gatelines, to be fair. They draw rather less attention to the irregular fare they charge if you use contactless PAYG.
It seemed to me when I last looked at it that West Drayton is shown, correctly, as being in zone 6 and the Heathrow stations are clearly shown as being in a different zone than West Drayton (or perhaps no zone - it isn't clear). To my mind, that's wrong. Maps in trains do not purport to tell you what the single fares are - anyone who uses PAYG for non-TfL National Rail journeys or mixed mode TfL / NR journeys can attest to that.
They do purport to tell you what zone stations are in, and the map in question fails to do that in the case of the Heathrow stations. And that has the obvious potential to mislead passengers holding a Travelcard or hoping to rely on daily capping based on the zones they have travelled in (hence this thread).
At its worst, it could cause somebody holding a Travelcard and wanting to go to Heathrow to alight at Hayes & Harlington, exit and then tap in on Oyster or Contactless, believing they'd reached the limit of their Travelcard's validity.
There is no reason why a text box couldn't have been added to the map explaining that special single fares apply to Heathrow, without messing up the way the zones are depicted.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Well, HS1 it goes to St Pancras, which is in Zone 1. I accept that Stratford International rail station (which is not in the Travelcard zones although it is shown in zones 2 and 3 on the Rail and Tube Services map) is technically separate from Stratford International DLR station (which is in zones 2 and 3), but that is an artifice in many ways. Both are immediately adjacent to each other and have the same name.
Anyone looking at the rail and tube services map would expect to be able to use their Travelcard on that line, and would only realise they can't if they looked at the "fares information" box bottom left. If they fail to spot that, Southeastern do clarify the point that Travelcards are not accepted, quite forcefully, at their gatelines, to be fair. They draw rather less attention to the irregular fare they charge if you use contactless PAYG.
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You don't need to go on a train - this is the map: https://content.tfl.gov.uk/elizabeth-line-map.pdf
In contrast, TfL appear to be silent about the Heathrow premium on the Piccadilly Line.
I guess TfL don't feel the need to be transparent about the Piccadilly premium, as it only applies if travelling to/from/via Zone 1, and also only at off-peak times, and people who are caught out by it are only unexpectedly out of pocket by a couple of quid.
Whereas the premium for Crossrail is far higher, and exists from all destinations (though some are more affected than others).
The Piccadilly premium can be completely avoided by splitting at Hatton Cross; the Crossrail premium can sometimes be reduced by splitting at somewhere like Ealing Broadway, depending on the journey.
UK Airport passengers are deemed to be fair game for paying premiums; the same happens at Gatwick, where splitting at East Croydon can massively reduce the price and avoid the premium.
I usually take steps to avoid the premiums by tapping out and back in again, but I never see anyone else doing this; most people seem to be either happy to pay the premium or are blissfully unaware of it, and no doubt this encourages TfL to continue charging such premiums.
I guess TfL don't feel the need to be transparent about the Piccadilly premium, as it only applies if travelling to/from/via Zone 1, and also only at off-peak times, and people who are caught out by it are only unexpectedly out of pocket by a couple of quid.
Whereas the premium for Crossrail is far higher, and exists from all destinations (though some are more affected than others).
The Piccadilly premium can be completely avoided by splitting at Hatton Cross; the Crossrail premium can sometimes be reduced by splitting at somewhere like Ealing Broadway, depending on the journey.
UK Airport passengers are deemed to be fair game for paying premiums; the same happens at Gatwick, where splitting at East Croydon can massively reduce the price and avoid the premium.
I usually take steps to avoid the premiums by tapping out and back in again, but I never see anyone else doing this; most people seem to be either happy to pay the premium or are blissfully unaware of it, and no doubt this encourages TfL to continue charging such premiums.
redreni
Established Member
Thanks.
As I thought, the unlabeled area containing the Heathrow stations is separated from zone 6 by the same kind of line that separates zone 6 from zone 5 and from the area outside the (public-facing) numbered zones. That cannot be correct. The stations are in zone 6.
redreni
Established Member
Slade Green is on the tube map. Is that in zone 6 for single fare purposes, as far as TfL is concerned?
The TfL fare scale doesn't apply.
I really don't think the maps purport to tell people what the single fares are. They allow passengers to know what zone a station is in so they know what zones they're travelling in for daily or weekly capping purposes, and as you say, to know if their Travelcard will cover them for the journey they want to make.
Slade Green is in Zone 6 on the NR scale.
Indeed, it's not a route on the TfL scale.
It's true that the maps alone will not divulge the cost of single fares.
This page shows capping details and shows Heathrow as Zone 6:
Caps and Travelcard prices
Covers Travelcards and Cap fares for Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and most National Rail services.
tfl.gov.uk
Yes, there is an argument to say that the way TfL do it for the Piccadilly Line is correct, and that people who make a single journey just end up with a surprise extra cost (if they even look at their statement).
In any case, TfL's current situation is untenable as there is a mismatch between Elizabeth Line and Piccadilly Line approaches.
They should probably show Heathrow as in Zone 6 but, on both maps, warn that a premium applies to single fares.
I suspect TfL don't want to do this as they don't want to be transparent about the nature of their charging.
redreni
Established Member
If I were at TfL dealing with people complaining that they were charged more than they expected when they went to Heathrow, I think I would just say I am sorry that this was more than you were expecting, but unfortunately it is necessary to check the single fare before you travel if you want to avoid surprises.
As you say, there are different fare scales. The single fare from one zone to another is variable depending on mode or modes. Yes, there's a Heathrow premium over and above this and yes, it's probably worth flagging that somehow (although it's a bit late when people are already on the train).
The maps just can't sensibly be used to convey this type of information, imho.
As you say, there are different fare scales. The single fare from one zone to another is variable depending on mode or modes. Yes, there's a Heathrow premium over and above this and yes, it's probably worth flagging that somehow (although it's a bit late when people are already on the train).
The maps just can't sensibly be used to convey this type of information, imho.
Agreed. The map is currently misleading, by implying that Heathrow isn't in Zone 6 (which is what led to this thread). There should simply be a note/box to say that "special single fares apply". That leaves the onus on the passenger if they want to check how much the fare is before travelling.
alistairlees
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Cartographically, it's a mess of a map. Amusingly, on TfL's Tube map (which includes the Elizabeth line), Heathrow Airport is in Zone 6 (with the caveat, on the other side of the map, that "Special fares apply on Elizabeth line services to / from Heathrow Airport")
tram21
Established Member
How does Heathrow work with fare caps? I understand that single fares are charged at peak, or special rate, but if you go to Heathrow when you would hit the off-peak 1-6 cap, is that all you pay or do you pay the peak cap??
redreni
Established Member
Unless it's changed very recently, it's within the daily cap.
Another reason why it's potentially unnerving for passengers who are going to the airport having already made several journeys within zones 1-6 that day and who believe, correctly, that they're going to be charged the daily cap, to see this map which seems to tell them they're going outside zones 1-6.
Heathrow is in zone 6 and is no different to any other station for capping or Travelcard purposes when you use the Elizabeth line. If you travel at peak times, the peak cap applies; if you travel at off-peak times (determined by time of touch in), the off-peak cap applies.
The single fares are charged as peak all day if you're travelling to/from/via Zone 1, and are more expensive than normal fares to/from Zone 6, but that doesn't (directly) affect the cap - it just means you'll hit the cap more quickly.
This is exactly the kind of confusion that the mess of fares has caused (not to mention TfL's cakeism when it comes to the Elizabeth line fares - treating it as an Underground line in the 'core' but a National Rail service on the Heathrow branch).
tram21
Established Member
Thanks so much, next time I have a day in London I'll probably find myself at Heathrow, so good to know.
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