Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification

[Nicholas Lewis]

I doubt the Scottish Govt regard the ability of a handful of LNER trains to use the wires as having any influence in its decision making process (which is heavily constrained by budgets) regarding how fast the project is completed.

And really, why would it?

Once this section is completed that will be all work for these teams exhausted in Scotland unless they are moved to another route I believe. Lets hope given the complimentary comments made by Transport for Scotland and NR over how the continuous deployment of these teams has reaped cost and delivery efficiency they are able to keep the team intact,

 

[TrainViation]

I doubt the Scottish Govt regard the ability of a handful of LNER trains to use the wires as having any influence in its decision making process (which is heavily constrained by budgets) regarding how fast the project is completed.

And really, why would it?

I'm just meaning, that if the wires are there, they will use them. It's the new stock that may sway the govt's decision. And yes, budgeting is a real issue sadly.

 

[John R]

Once this section is completed that will be all work for these teams exhausted in Scotland unless they are moved to another route I believe. Lets hope given the complimentary comments made by Transport for Scotland and NR over how the continuous deployment of these teams has reaped cost and delivery efficiency they are able to keep the team intact,

I think we all hope that. Tweedbank maybe?

 

[N1]

I think we all hope that. Tweedbank maybe?

AFAIK it is still subject to Full Business Case for Tweedbank. But the outline business case had costs for Borders electrification (by Battery EMU) at £32 million, of which £14.4 million is the new feeder station at Tweedbank. I wouldn't think that those costs are completely out of reach, as the feeder station is already committed. They found £40million to revive ScotZeb 2.

I imagine there is a bit of pressure to stop work now though, as there will be those arguing to release the funds for other projects now, and delay electrification closer to when BEMUs are expected to be delivered.

Brief modern railways article on how electrification costs in Scotland have been cut with the slow burn strategy. Scotland’s rolling programme cuts electrification costs by 26%

 

[Trainbike46]

Once this section is completed that will be all work for these teams exhausted in Scotland unless they are moved to another route I believe. Lets hope given the complimentary comments made by Transport for Scotland and NR over how the continuous deployment of these teams has reaped cost and delivery efficiency they are able to keep the team intact,

I think we all hope that. Tweedbank maybe?

Tweedbank is one option; the other options for what comes next would be the electrification around Glenrothes/Thornton/Leven (so the second half of the fife circle BEMU project that Haymarket-Dalmeny is a part of), and around Dundee. I suspect whatever goes next depends on the order in which grid connections will be available.

To bring this back to Dalmeny, It's good to see progress, thank you for sharing that photo @TrainViation !

Link to thread about Dundee:

Dundee electrification plans

Delivery times for these are quite lengthy. No doubt the 3 units are in safe storage at Cadder until the Fife Circle or ACB schemes are authorised for installation. Not currently authorised. The other could possibly be for Dundee. mods note - split from this thread...

www.railforums.co.uk

Link to thread about Fife Circle:

Fife Rail Electrification/Decarbonisation

This thread will be dedicated to the later phases of the ongoing Fife Circle Electrification project, and certain aspects around it. I’d like to ask an initial question. The B9130 road which goes over a cobble bridge at Markinch station is FAR too low to support any means of electric wires or...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Falcon1200]

Tweedbank is one option; the other options for what comes next would be the electrification around Glenrothes/Thornton/Leven (so the second half of the fife circle BEMU project that Haymarket-Dalmeny is a part of), and around Dundee.

Barrhead/Kilmarnock and Kilmarnock/Barassie next, surely - No fancy, yet to be ordered BEMUs required!

 

[najaB]

Tweedbank is one option; the other options for what comes next would be the electrification around Glenrothes/Thornton/Leven (so the second half of the fife circle BEMU project that Haymarket-Dalmeny is a part of), and around Dundee. I suspect whatever goes next depends on the order in which grid connections will be available.

Selfishly, Dundee to Arbroath and then Dundee to Perth.

This would allow EMUs to take over the Dundee/Arbroath shuttles and set things up for the Glasgow/Dundee services to go to BEMU once ordered. It might also help the case for re-opening Errol as the Dundee/Arbroath could become Errol/Arbroath with EMUs and a park-n-ride station somewhere on the outskirts of Dundee.

There would need to be servicing facilities at Dundee though until the connection to Perth was available.

 

[Southsider]

Barrhead/Kilmarnock and Kilmarnock/Barassie next, surely - No fancy, yet to be ordered BEMUs required!

But EMUs are required and we’ve learned from East Kilbride that there are not enough to run even that. There’s really no point in electrifying any more until there is some prospect of rolling stock being available.

 

[Class 170101]

But EMUs are required and we’ve learned from East Kilbride that there are not enough to run even that. There’s really no point in electrifying any more until there is some prospect of rolling stock being available.

Some Class 350s going spare shortly.

 

[TrainViation]

Some Class 350s going spare shortly.

Aren't they going to Northern though?

 

[clc]

But EMUs are required and we’ve learned from East Kilbride that there are not enough to run even that. There’s really no point in electrifying any more until there is some prospect of rolling stock being available.

Do you know for sure that there aren’t enough EMUs for East Kilbride? Ayr and Gourock are both still 2tph down. Even allowing for the extra 1tph to Wemyss Bay and 1 EMU per hour to Barrhead there should be enough slack in the fleet to cover East Kilbride.

 

[Falcon1200]

But EMUs are required

Somewhat easier to obtain than BEMUs, which have not been ordered yet, or maybe even designed? Not to mention the additional training required, of operating and maintenance staff, and facilities for an entirely new type of train. Electrifying to Fife and beyond is of course a worthy and desirable ambition, but IMHO the resources being used for the (for several years at least) practically useless Haymarket/Dalmeny scheme would have been far better deployed elsewhere.

 

[zwk500]

But EMUs are required and we’ve learned from East Kilbride that there are not enough to run even that. There’s really no point in electrifying any more until there is some prospect of rolling stock being available.

soft disagree - electrification projects are incredibly long lead and keeping at least the core of the team together is vital to making sure risks are controlled. Limiting electrification yes, but if you stop electrification work completely the team will disperse to where the work actually is and after that it's incredibly hard to get the band back together. And even if you do, you'll have lost a lot of collective knowledge and skill.
Scotland has done very well from it's programme of rolling electrification - AIUI they're now budgeting for costs in the £1.5m-2.5m/stkm range, when recent NR schemes have touched double that. It would be a shame to throw much of that progress in the bin waiting for the stock to be sorted out, especially given the stated decarbonisation targets.

 

[najaB]

Just thought of a useful project to work on next while waiting for the Dundee feeder station: wiring the Edinburgh Sub.

Worth it to increase freight clearance, and to provide an electrified route around Waverley.

 

[59CosG95]

Just thought of a useful project to work on next while waiting for the Dundee feeder station: wiring the Edinburgh Sub.

Worth it to increase freight clearance, and to provide an electrified route around Waverley.

Shouldn't (at least I think it shouldn't) require any new feeders. Maybe a new TSC or two, but the power supply should stay the same.

 

[Southsider]

soft disagree - electrification projects are incredibly long lead and keeping at least the core of the team together is vital to making sure risks are controlled. Limiting electrification yes, but if you stop electrification work completely the team will disperse to where the work actually is and after that it's incredibly hard to get the band back together. And even if you do, you'll have lost a lot of collective knowledge and skill.
Scotland has done very well from it's programme of rolling electrification - AIUI they're now budgeting for costs in the £1.5m-2.5m/stkm range, when recent NR schemes have touched double that. It would be a shame to throw much of that progress in the bin waiting for the stock to be sorted out, especially given the stated decarbonisation targets.

But put your business hat on. All that money being invested without a proper return - I wonder what the business case would look like.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

Somewhat easier to obtain than BEMUs, which have not been ordered yet, or maybe even designed? Not to mention the additional training required, of operating and maintenance staff, and facilities for an entirely new type of train. Electrifying to Fife and beyond is of course a worthy and desirable ambition, but IMHO the resources being used for the (for several years at least) practically useless Haymarket/Dalmeny scheme would have been far better deployed elsewhere.

Easy to obtain (at least until the 321s went for scrap). I think many of us had expected to see a few of them come north, either as-is or converted to 320s but Scotrail passed on that. The 350/2s seem to be heading for Northern and Scotrail intend to continue with 156s for the bulk of EK services.

 

[takno]

Somewhat easier to obtain than BEMUs, which have not been ordered yet, or maybe even designed? Not to mention the additional training required, of operating and maintenance staff, and facilities for an entirely new type of train. Electrifying to Fife and beyond is of course a worthy and desirable ambition, but IMHO the resources being used for the (for several years at least) practically useless Haymarket/Dalmeny scheme would have been far better deployed elsewhere.

It's worthwhile if only to ease the business case for BEMUs. There are some small schemes which could be fully electrified sooner, and you could arguably turn up some EMUs from somewhere to run them, but it's clear we aren't swimming in EMUs in Scotland. It's quite possible that we could have BEMUs on the Fife routes just as quickly.

In any case Edinburgh-Dalmeny is a fairly busy route which does a lot of mileage through urban or rapidly-urbanising areas, so the longer-term case for electrifying it is undisputable. The overall decisions on electrifying it were largely made a number of years ago, meaning that it's one of the routes which is surveyed and shovel-ready. You could argue that with all the information we have now it might have been more optimal to do another route first, but you'd have had to have known that 5 years ago so that you could start doing the surveying and planning. Trying to play too clever now just risks increasing costs and getting nothing done.

 

[och aye]

A planning application has been lodged to demolish the private bridge just slightly further up the line from Edinburgh Gateway station.

25/04096/PARAIL | Notification of Network Rail's intention to demolish a private bridge over the railway that is located around 620m northwest of Edinburgh Gateway Station. | Land To South West Of Meadowfield Farm Turnhouse Road Edinburgh

25/04096/PARAIL | Notification of Network Rail's intention to demolish a private bridge over the railway that is located around 620m northwest of Edinburgh Gateway Station. |

citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk

 

[gingertom]

It's worthwhile if only to ease the business case for BEMUs. There are some small schemes which could be fully electrified sooner, and you could arguably turn up some EMUs from somewhere to run them, but it's clear we aren't swimming in EMUs in Scotland. It's quite possible that we could have BEMUs on the Fife routes just as quickly.

In any case Edinburgh-Dalmeny is a fairly busy route which does a lot of mileage through urban or rapidly-urbanising areas, so the longer-term case for electrifying it is undisputable. The overall decisions on electrifying it were largely made a number of years ago, meaning that it's one of the routes which is surveyed and shovel-ready. You could argue that with all the information we have now it might have been more optimal to do another route first, but you'd have had to have known that 5 years ago so that you could start doing the surveying and planning. Trying to play too clever now just risks increasing costs and getting nothing done.

IMHO putting wires up Haymarket-Dalmeny is sending out a clear message of intent that the bridge is going to get wired. Eventually.

I also think wiring Winchburgh-Dalmeny a good option, so that EMUs can run the occasional diversion, rather than having to find some DMUs to cover for when the main route is closed.

 

[Trainbike46]

IMHO putting wires up Haymarket-Dalmeny is sending out a clear message of intent that the bridge is going to get wired. Eventually.

I also think wiring Winchburgh-Dalmeny a good option, so that EMUs can run the occasional diversion, rather than having to find some DMUs to cover for when the main route is closed.

Does that route get used for diversions in practice?

 

[TrainViation]

IMHO putting wires up Haymarket-Dalmeny is sending out a clear message of intent that the bridge is going to get wired. Eventually.

I also think wiring Winchburgh-Dalmeny a good option, so that EMUs can run the occasional diversion, rather than having to find some DMUs to cover for when the main route is closed.

I'm going to have to disagree about the bridge being wired. Not because of the UNESCO status, but just because of the bridge clearance being very low. Also, the electrification ends about half a kilometre away from Dalmeny station, meaning it's hard to believe (sadly) that the line to Winchburgh will be electrified any time soon. It also doesn't help that there is a large mess of disused or in-need-of-TLC sidings which would make the masts much more complicated, if they opted for gantries spanning the entire width of the track.

Just thought of a useful project to work on next while waiting for the Dundee feeder station: wiring the Edinburgh Sub.

Worth it to increase freight clearance, and to provide an electrified route around Waverley.

I think the Leven branch, and phases 2 through 4 of the Fife electrification scheme will still be taking place up until then. But it would definitely make sense to do that.

Does that route get used for diversions in practice?

Sometimes the last southbound trains from Perth and Dundee are diverted via Winchburgh and reverse at Linlithgow after midnight in order to reach Waverley. I'm assuming it's due to engineering works.

 

[themiller]

Many months ago, there was an intention to fit some electrification components to the Forth Bridge to establish their resistance to salty atmosphere corrosion. Is it known if this went ahead and is there knowledge of the results?

 

[TrainViation]

Many months ago, there was an intention to fit some electrification components to the Forth Bridge to establish their resistance to salty atmosphere corrosion. Is it known if this went ahead and is there knowledge of the results?

Would you be able to link your source of where you heard this? I've never heard anything about that before so I'm quite curious...

 

[MadMac]

Would you be able to link your source of where you heard this? I've never heard anything about that before so I'm quite curious...

I have a recollection of reading something to that effect on here!

 

[waverley47]

The plan was for a three year trial.

In October 2022, the Transport Select Committee accepted that the project had begun, although consent from UNESCO was still required; link here.

"Electrification works in Fife and South of Forth progressing Forth Bridge to be done at a later phase. Some components will be erected on bridge to monitor performance in advance of permanent installation. Currently going through consultation and planning. MO added that this has to be presented to UNESCO. SL will make planning aware"

I have a recollection of reading something to that effect on here!

Regardless of whether or not it started on time, any trial will not have run the full three years, and therefore will not have reported yet. Additionally, any findings are likely to be commercially sensitive.

 

[TrainViation]

The plan was for a three year trial.

In October 2022, the Transport Select Committee accepted that the project had begun, although consent from UNESCO was still required; link here.

"Electrification works in Fife and South of Forth progressing Forth Bridge to be done at a later phase. Some components will be erected on bridge to monitor performance in advance of permanent installation. Currently going through consultation and planning. MO added that this has to be presented to UNESCO. SL will make planning aware"



Regardless of whether or not it started on time, any trial will not have run the full three years, and therefore will not have reported yet. Additionally, any findings are likely to be commercially sensitive.

Realistically, should we expect around 2-6 months for this data to be processed and reported before we have a proper answer?

 

[themiller]

The plan was for a three year trial.

In October 2022, the Transport Select Committee accepted that the project had begun, although consent from UNESCO was still required; link here.

"Electrification works in Fife and South of Forth progressing Forth Bridge to be done at a later phase. Some components will be erected on bridge to monitor performance in advance of permanent installation. Currently going through consultation and planning. MO added that this has to be presented to UNESCO. SL will make planning aware"



Regardless of whether or not it started on time, any trial will not have run the full three years, and therefore will not have reported yet. Additionally, any findings are likely to be commercially sensitive.

Thanks for that, I was having difficulty finding the post. As regards commercial sensitivity, I would have thought that a successful trial would be worth bragging about and likely to stimulate further business!

 

[Trainbike46]

Thanks for that, I was having difficulty finding the post. As regards commercial sensitivity, I would have thought that a successful trial would be worth bragging about and likely to stimulate further business!

Probably, but you can't do that until the trial is over!

 

[AMD]

Had time to have the camera out recording from Dalmeny jct down to Gateway, showing virtually all masts in place now.

 

[najaB]

Had time to have the camera out recording from Dalmeny jct down to Gateway, showing virtually all masts in place now.

Thanks very much for that! It's nice to see that they've done so much, and also just how low the bridges are.