Have First got their eyes on East Coast?

[Bald Rick]

You're not alone.

I took a punt on Nat Ex when I thought they might win the ECML franchise. The graph says it all : (click to enlarge)
View attachment 9851

Unlucky! I have it from a usually reliable source that First actually won the EC bid, but due to their then 'issues' on FGW the minister intervened and it went to the second placed bidder. Certainly NX had got the impression they had not won it.

 

[cj_1985]

as regards the ICEC franchise...
when the bids go in, and get checked etc... its worth remembering that for Arriva(DB) and First Group... their bids will probably require involvement by the competition commision...

in the case of First Group, if they were to be awarded the ICEC franchise, then they would (based on the current situation) hold a monopoly on all london to Hull services...

Likewise, but not to the same extent, Arriva have the issue of being the owner of Grand Central... while GC and the ICEC franchise do not serve all the same stops... they do serve fairly similar areas...

both groups bids could be viewed as considerably lowering the competition in the marketplace...

 

[jon0844]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree, First Capital Connect is/was in the same position as First Great Western was back a few years ago however it is getting better.

As a example whereas most franchises do little to no investment in the last 18 months of their franchise and prefer to just keep the franchise ticking over, First Capital Connect is actively looking at ways to improve the business such as inviting passengers to offers ideas which are then voted on and eventually used.

There's a link on the First Capital Connect website with further details.

I hadn't seen the 'ideas' page. Quite a good idea, and better than the palming off on the online forum from management - at least someone seems keen to give some reasons (and often a good explanation of why something can't be done works wonders).

FCC seems to be spending money all the time, but I am of course biased given the fact I'm on the GN side. Despite what I believe to be poor management, the company has good and dedicated staff who are often as frustrated as the users - but overall, they're doing a good job.

Anyone made to run the TL side during all the work, and stock being worked to the limits, would be doomed. Does anyone think another TOC could have done better?

 

[ainsworth74]

Does anyone think another TOC could have done better?

GNER? Everything they touched seemed to turn to gold

 

[PFX]

There is no policy regarding franchise names. Seems to be to be something a few over zealous enthusiasts have come up with. Nowhere in any of the ITT documents for either Great Western or West Coast does it say there will be a generic name.

Except in Scotland where the Executive have implemented an all-Scotland rail branding - single livery (still being phased in) and emphasis on the brand name Scotrail: Scotland's railway rather than First's corporate branding.

 

[tbtc]

as regards the ICEC franchise...
when the bids go in, and get checked etc... its worth remembering that for Arriva(DB) and First Group... their bids will probably require involvement by the competition commision...

in the case of First Group, if they were to be awarded the ICEC franchise, then they would (based on the current situation) hold a monopoly on all london to Hull services...

Likewise, but not to the same extent, Arriva have the issue of being the owner of Grand Central... while GC and the ICEC franchise do not serve all the same stops... they do serve fairly similar areas...

both groups bids could be viewed as considerably lowering the competition in the marketplace...

Given that we have one TOC running big markets like Newcastle/Manchester/Bristol/Sheffield - London, without any "competition" concerns, I don't think that having one company running all the Hull - London trains is going to worry the competition people *that* much (esp as there was only one TOC running it in GNER days).

People always come up with the "competition" argument, but is there any evidence of a company being denied one franchise because of holding another? National Express won the East Anglia franchise despite holding the other Southend franchise, Southern and South Eastern have been part of the same company for most of the time since privatisation...

There have been examples with bus companies having to divest of operations due to competition (Arriva in Merseyside being an example), maybe this is where the idea has come from?

 

[IanXC]

Given that we have one TOC running big markets like Newcastle/Manchester/Bristol/Sheffield - London, without any "competition" concerns, I don't think that having one company running all the Hull - London trains is going to worry the competition people *that* much (esp as there was only one TOC running it in GNER days).

People always come up with the "competition" argument, but is there any evidence of a company being denied one franchise because of holding another? National Express won the East Anglia franchise despite holding the other Southend franchise, Southern and South Eastern have been part of the same company for most of the time since privatisation...

There have been examples with bus companies having to divest of operations due to competition (Arriva in Merseyside being an example), maybe this is where the idea has come from?

I agree. I don't think the Competition Commission would be particularly interested either. The industry is set up on the basis that many routes will have a single operator enjoying a monopoly, and the regulation of the industry reflects that.

 

[Aictos]

Given that we have one TOC running big markets like Newcastle/Manchester/Bristol/Sheffield - London, without any "competition" concerns, I don't think that having one company running all the Hull - London trains is going to worry the competition people *that* much (esp as there was only one TOC running it in GNER days).

People always come up with the "competition" argument, but is there any evidence of a company being denied one franchise because of holding another? National Express won the East Anglia franchise despite holding the other Southend franchise, Southern and South Eastern have been part of the same company for most of the time since privatisation...

There have been examples with bus companies having to divest of operations due to competition (Arriva in Merseyside being an example), maybe this is where the idea has come from?

Exactly what's stopping First from selling it's Hull Trains operation if it means winning the East Coast, DB could then add Hull Trains to it's existing Open Access portfolio.

Equally if DB won the paths to operate services to Cleethorpes using 7 trains a day, they could use 5 car ICE TDs in pairs between Doncaster and Kings Cross with portions going to Hull and Cleethorpes which would be a much easier way of pathing them.

Equally so, if Abellio do well in managing the Great Anglia franchise as caretakers they might have well bid for a Greater Anglia franchise which should include the existing National Express East Anglia and C2C franchises.

 

[tbtc]

Exactly what's stopping First from selling it's Hull Trains operation if it means winning the East Coast, DB could then add Hull Trains to it's existing Open Access portfolio.

Equally if DB won the paths to operate services to Cleethorpes using 7 trains a day, they could use 5 car ICE TDs in pairs between Doncaster and Kings Cross with portions going to Hull and Cleethorpes which would be a much easier way of pathing them.

Equally so, if Abellio do well in managing the Great Anglia franchise as caretakers they might have well bid for a Greater Anglia franchise which should include the existing National Express East Anglia and C2C franchises.

But, unless anyone can prove otherwise (?), First wouldn't have to sell Hull Trains if they won the East Coast franchise.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

But, unless anyone can prove otherwise (?), First wouldn't have to sell Hull Trains if they won the East Coast franchise.

I agree. And nor would DB have to sell GC.

 

[bluenoxid]

I hadn't seen the 'ideas' page. Quite a good idea, and better than the palming off on the online forum from management - at least someone seems keen to give some reasons (and often a good explanation of why something can't be done works wonders).

FCC seems to be spending money all the time, but I am of course biased given the fact I'm on the GN side. Despite what I believe to be poor management, the company has good and dedicated staff who are often as frustrated as the users - but overall, they're doing a good job.

Anyone made to run the TL side during all the work, and stock being worked to the limits, would be doomed. Does anyone think another TOC could have done better?

It's mostly rubbish. There are some really good points that they try to wash into customer relations. We call it Twitterwashing.

If they cannot do it, they give up. :roll:

 

[DaveNewcastle]

(apologies for being a few days late, and slightly off topic)

GNER? Everything they touched seemed to turn to gold

I think that such abilities, thanks to the Classics, have been refered to as 'The Midas Touch'.

My question is this: what phrase do we have to refer to a person or institution whose touch turns everything of value into worthless excrement?

[Disclaimer. My question is naive. I impune nothing about any persons or other entities, and specifically nothing about any subsequent operator on the ECML whose business reforms and customer-led transformations and loss-limitation strategies may have inadvertently reduced something of gold into something of excrement. I am merely seeking assistance with my defecit of vocabulary.]

 

[185]

.....refered to as 'The Midas Touch'.

My question is this: what phrase do we have to refer to a person or institution whose touch turns everything of value into worthless excrement?

I'm picturing a certain Scottish group's CEO. He's a Yank. That's the name you're after.

 

[PKB]

That would be The Andrex Touch.

 

[YorkshireRider]

GNER? Everything they touched seemed to turn to gold

If only it did, they might have been able to afford the payments to run the EC franchise then, alas not and along came NX

 

[benk1342]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree, First Capital Connect is/was in the same position as First Great Western was back a few years ago however it is getting better.

Agreed. I don't have much to compare it to, but aside from the filthiness of the trains I like FCC. It gets me into London quickly and reliably. There's something about FCC's "no frills" approach that appeals to me, I guess. It's public transport, not a luxury cruise.

And I like that you can open the windows, even if they do slam shut every time an East Coast service whizzes past. I'll take that over air con any day.

 

[jon0844]

I agree with all but the aircon bit. When you're on the down slow with windows open and an Mk4 with overflowing CET tanks dumps while you're both in a tunnel (near Hadley Wood for example) - having the windows slam shut is the best you can hope for.

Otherwise, enjoy the spray that comes in which isn't water!!