Halton Curve upgrade is on

[LNW-GW Joint]

The meeting agenda for the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority to approve/reject the Halton Curve proposal have now been released with what appears to be a recommendation to approve. The meeting is due on the 15th April. Agenda item 4.

Plenty of pitfalls identified though, notably inadequate costing by NR (where have we heard that before?). The scheme isn't yet fully at GRIP 3.
A BCR of 1.9 is respectable, but I bet the costs go up further.

Para 4.6 suggests it will be a Wales & Borders service, not Northern.
This at least maintains the interest of the Welsh Government in extending the service west of Chester.
Merseytravel will only have to support the service until it is formally placed in the W&B franchise.
As this is due to be relet in 2018, when the curve is supposed to open, that may not be for very long.

 

[Class 170101]

As this is due to be relet in 2018, when the curve is supposed to open, that may not be for very long.

Assuming the curve opens on time. Where have we seen slippages on NR projects?

 

[Railman]

For the past couple of years £10.4m was the figure now it seems £16m is the cost with no guarantee ? This is supposed to be the cost of installing a new junction and extra signalling on to a new signalling scheme being designed from scratch anyway?
If that's the case what is the cost of Weaver to Wavertree scheme without the chord connection???

 

[Camden]

£16m, part of which is coming from the city's own growth fund, is hardly breaking the bank in the scheme of things.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Looks like it got the nod.
http://www.insidermedia.com/insider/northwest/trio-of-city-region-travel-projects-waved-through
Not seen the official minutes yet though.

 

[frodshamfella]

Great news

 

[notlob.divad]

Sorry if this has been mentioned above, but what is the capacity of the Halton Curve after it's reinstatement. I am taking it that it is remaining as a single track. (Although I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere) but not sure what that would provide in terms of capacity.

The business case seems to start out with a 1tph all stops Liverpool-Chester service. Whilst many people want to see a return of a Cardiff service and a North Wales service. I appreciate there are other issues with the capacity of Wrexham - Chester partial re-doubling, and I have placed my thoughts on that thread.

With the City Region putting up £5.7m of the cost and Chester already having a direct (all be it slow) service I would have thought through services from places not currently connected would be necessary. In an ideal world I would like to see this all stops service continue to Llandudno, and the current Cardiff - Holyhead service split at Chester with the Cardiff portion running ... Chester - Runcorn - Lpool S/Parkway - Liverpool Lime Street. This would be 2 tph in each direction, between Runcorn and Frodsham but I don't know if the Halton Curve has the capacity to take this in its current proposed form.

 

[OxtedL]

... This would be 2 tph in each direction, between Runcorn and Frodsham but I don't know if the Halton Curve has the capacity to take this in its current proposed form.

The chord is presently timed to take 4 minutes to traverse (here is the schedule for this Saturday's ECS, timed 0801½ at Frodsham junction, 0805½ at Halton junction).

2 tph should easily fit.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For the past couple of years £10.4m was the figure now it seems £16m is the cost with no guarantee ? This is supposed to be the cost of installing a new junction and extra signalling on to a new signalling scheme being designed from scratch anyway?

Could signalling and infrastructural costs be somewhat similar in nature in this Halton location to the same type of costs that were incurred in the Todmorden Chord?

 

[MarkRedon]

For the past couple of years £10.4m was the figure now it seems £16m is the cost with no guarantee ? This is supposed to be the cost of installing a new junction and extra signalling on to a new signalling scheme being designed from scratch anyway?
If that's the case what is the cost of Weaver to Wavertree scheme without the chord connection???

This quote from http://www.insidermedia.com/insider/northwest/trio-of-city-region-travel-projects-waved-through indicates that the £10.4m is the contribution from central government; £5.7m is coming from the Combined Authority.

Approval of the business case unlocks the £10.4m allocated to the scheme through the government's Local Growth Fund (LGF).

The combined authority has also approved an additional £5.7m for the scheme to come from the city region's LGF pot. Explaining this, the authority said that it reflects that the initial bid to government in 2014 was based on a high-level estimate at an early stage of scheme development and represents what additional funding would be required to meet the highest estimated cost for the scheme of £18.8m.

I don't know what Weaver to Wavertree resignalling is costing, but it certainly isn't covered by these amounts, which are for the Halton Curve alone.

 

[Ships]

Could signalling and infrastructural costs be somewhat similar in nature in this Halton location to the same type of costs that were incurred in the Todmorden Chord?

.

I would imagine from a track perspective it's not a million miles away. Both require new or renewed cross overs and fairly significant alteration to the local signalling. If they're renewing the plain line there's a fair bit more curve at Halton

 

[northwichcat]

Question perhaps is where is the stock going to come from for a service starting in 2018?

They'll probably be 153s and some of the Pacers up for grabs. However, if either of those are to remain in service post-Dec 2019 they'll need to start being modified almost as soon as the service starts. There's also the 5 x 156s Scotrail are releasing which Northern haven't secured unless they've already been secured for another franchise e.g. Anglia.

 

[notlob.divad]

Question perhaps is where is the stock going to come from for a service starting in 2018?

They'll probably be 153s and some of the Pacers up for grabs. However, if either of those are to remain in service post-Dec 2019 they'll need to start being modified almost as soon as the service starts. There's also the 5 x 156s Scotrail are releasing which Northern haven't secured unless they've already been secured for another franchise e.g. Anglia.

How many units will it require to run an hourly all stops service? Guessing 2.

Under the bold assumption it will eventually fall to W&B it would make sense if they could use some 150s as that is what is on Wrexham to Bidston. I don't know if any of these will be available though. The Parliamentary service is currently run by 150s or a 156s. so they would also presumably be sensible choices.

Either way under the W&B situation stock renewal will also presumably come along with the removal/renovation of the W&B pacers. Which will have to be pretty Rapid once the October 18 start date arrives so whatever does run it, may only be around for a year before it is replaced. Therefore, I would suggest "whatever they can get their hands on"

 

[northwichcat]

How many units will it require to run an hourly all stops service? Guessing 2.

Under the bold assumption it will eventually fall to W&B it would make sense if they could use some 150s as that is what is on Wrexham to Bidston. I don't know if any of these will be available though. The Parliamentary service is currently run by 150s or a 156s. so they would also presumably be sensible choices.

All stops all the way (including West Allerton, Mossley Hill and Edge Hill) would likely need 3 diagrams. All stops between Chester and Liverpool South Parkway, then non-stop to Lime Street would be possible using 2 diagrams but only if suitable paths were found meaning there's no lengthy dwell/layover times.

However, depending on the timing of peak time services 2 cars may not be sufficient on all services - most trains between Liverpool South Parkway and central Liverpool are between 3 and 6 carriages at peak times.

 

[notlob.divad]

All stops all the way (including West Allerton, Mossley Hill and Edge Hill) would likely need 3 diagrams. All stops between Chester and Liverpool South Parkway, then non-stop to Lime Street would be possible using 2 diagrams but only if suitable paths were found meaning there's no lengthy dwell/layover times.

However, depending on the timing of peak time services 2 cars may not be sufficient on all services - most trains between Liverpool South Parkway and central Liverpool are between 3 and 6 carriages at peak times.

Given the LCR has funded a chunk of the Halton Curve costs, and are supporting the running of it, I would have thought stopping at Edge Hill, Mossley Hill and West Allerton would be included. It fits in with Merseytravels statements to improve the rail services at stations to the South and East of the City by giving them a 3rd tph. Given the plan is surely to extend it on in the future I would anticipate a lengthy layover at Chester.

I hadn't considered extra carriages at peak time. Does the CLC stopper have >2 carriages for the peak into Lime Street? I have only ever caught it during the day.

 

[northwichcat]

I hadn't considered extra carriages at peak time. Does the CLC stopper have >2 carriages for the peak into Lime Street? I have only ever caught it during the day.

CLC stopper has 4 carriages on some services at peak times, 2 carriage ones at peak times are booked as 156s. There's a set swap at Chester in the afternoon to take a 156 off the Mid-Cheshire line and replace it with a 150 so that a 156 works one of the last peak departures from Lime Street for Oxford Rd.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Question perhaps is where is the stock going to come from for a service starting in 2018?

They'll probably be 153s and some of the Pacers up for grabs. However, if either of those are to remain in service post-Dec 2019 they'll need to start being modified almost as soon as the service starts. There's also the 5 x 156s Scotrail are releasing which Northern haven't secured unless they've already been secured for another franchise e.g. Anglia.

Pretty sure I read somewhere that Pacers are not cleared over the Halton Curve, however I can't remember where I read it!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Given the LCR has funded a chunk of the Halton Curve costs, and are supporting the running of it, I would have thought stopping at Edge Hill, Mossley Hill and West Allerton would be included. It fits in with Merseytravels statements to improve the rail services at stations to the South and East of the City by giving them a 3rd tph. Given the plan is surely to extend it on in the future I would anticipate a lengthy layover at Chester.
I hadn't considered extra carriages at peak time. Does the CLC stopper have >2 carriages for the peak into Lime Street? I have only ever caught it during the day.

The business case is based on 2x150s running an hourly service.
The assumption is stops at Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn and LPY, with a running time of 45 minutes.
Stops at 3 extra local Liverpool stations wouldn't be attractive for longer distance passengers.
Apart from Runcorn and LPY, the busiest station on the route currently is Mossley Hill.
The level of current traffic even at Helsby and Frodsham is also quite low outside the peaks (I accept they haven't got a Liverpool option).

 

[driver_m]

Pretty sure I read somewhere that Pacers are not cleared over the Halton Curve, however I can't remember where I read it!

Sectional appendix. 142 not allowed.

 

[The Planner]

Unless someone decides to clear them.

 

[northwichcat]

The business case is based on 2x150s running an hourly service.

Of course what's used in a business case doesn't mean what'll run the service. The business case for Manchester-York electrification was based on 380s on express services and 333s on slow services. And while Borders railway was based on 2 car 158s and got 2 car 158s it looks like they'll only be temporary with 3 car 170s taking their place in 2018.

Although, probably the most sensible short term solution would be for the GWR 143s to go to ATW and be used with the other 143s in the Cardiff area with up to 6 x 150s being sent North.

 

[frodshamfella]

The business case is based on 2x150s running an hourly service.
The assumption is stops at Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn and LPY, with a running time of 45 minutes.
Stops at 3 extra local Liverpool stations wouldn't be attractive for longer distance passengers.
Apart from Runcorn and LPY, the busiest station on the route currently is Mossley Hill.
The level of current traffic even at Helsby and Frodsham is also quite low outside the peaks (I accept they haven't got a Liverpool option).

It is also only an hourly service, which of course is not attractive to passengers anyway. I think passenger usage at Frodsham is upward, Helsby maybe static. As you say from both stations travel to Liverpool now is not available, it not quick either, considering the proximity.

 

[fowler9]

CLC stopper has 4 carriages on some services at peak times, 2 carriage ones at peak times are booked as 156s. There's a set swap at Chester in the afternoon to take a 156 off the Mid-Cheshire line and replace it with a 150 so that a 156 works one of the last peak departures from Lime Street for Oxford Rd.

What actually turns up on the CLC is a completely different matter.

 

[childwallblues]

Question perhaps is where is the stock going to come from for a service starting in 2018?

They'll probably be 153s and some of the Pacers up for grabs. However, if either of those are to remain in service post-Dec 2019 they'll need to start being modified almost as soon as the service starts. There's also the 5 x 156s Scotrail are releasing which Northern haven't secured unless they've already been secured for another franchise e.g. Anglia.

ATW do not use Pacers north of Cardiff so could be 150s. Spare 153s could be obtained from LM or GWR.

 

[krus_aragon]

ATW do not use Pacers north of Cardiff and the Valleys so could be 150s.

Fixed that for you: they definitely go north of Cardiff through Queen Street!

 

[craigybagel]

Fixed that for you: they definitely go north of Cardiff through Queen Street!

And Abergavenny on a Saturday! Have been known to make it as far as the crossing point on the Heart of Wales as well but I don't believe that's happened for a while....

 

[northwichcat]

ATW do not use Pacers north of Cardiff so could be 150s. Spare 153s could be obtained from LM or GWR.

Are LM releasing their 153s? AFAIK only Northern and GWR have confirmed they are releasing 153s.

 

[krus_aragon]

Have been known to make it as far as the crossing point on the Heart of Wales as well but I don't believe that's happened for a while....

I've been unlucky enough to be a passenger on such a service. :/

 

[craigybagel]

I've been unlucky enough to be a passenger on such a service. :/

Is it bad that it's something I'd actually like to do sometime? Sadly, whilst I do sign half of the HOWL, it's the half that can't see pacers since none of us guards or the drivers up there sign them.....

 

[krus_aragon]

Is it bad that it's something I'd actually like to do sometime? Sadly, whilst I do sign half of the HOWL, it's the half that can't see pacers since none of us guards or the drivers up there sign them.....

Not at all. I was just a little surprised to see a pacer lining up to take us north from Llanelli (as I know you don't sign them at the northern end), and then disappointed to see the same unit return to take us home later. We'd sat at the carriage end for the seats with the best leg space, but that meant we were above the axle, and on the jointed track it made for a slightly bumpy ride. (Not that it spoiled our day out, though.)