Halton Curve upgrade is on

[frodshamfella]

Meeting a friend on Friday at Liverpool Airport, I'm taking train from Acton Bridge to South Parkway and then onwards to airport terminal, wouldn't want to drive right now as Runcorn roads are a right mess with new bridge construction. So straightforward for me, my mate lives in Chester, not much further, but must go round the houses via Wirral and Liverpool city centre. So Halton Curve can't come quick enough, l would also pick up same train from Frodsham, Acton Bridges service isn't the best.

 

[childwallblues]

Bus 86A from South Parkway. 80A also goes from same bus stop but takes a few minutes more as it goes the "scenic route".

 

[frodshamfella]

Travelled on 07.53 last Saturday Chester to Runcorn over the curve, 7 passengers on board, which I though wasn't so bad considering the frequency, and most were not just going for the ride, a few had suit cases, so I was guessing heading for Liverpool South Parkway to go to Airport, so bring on full service !

16 July there is an alteration to service, arranged by NCRUG. Leaving Chester as normal, but calling also at Helsby, Frodsham and extended to South Parkway.

 

[frodshamfella]

The NRUG has a meeting tonight at FrOdiham Community Centre...someone from Merseyrail or maybe Merseyrail is speaking. 7pm

 

[urbophile]

Anything interesting there?

 

[frodshamfella]

Yes , Merseyrail will be announcing new trains by December, will be able to cope with 3rd rail and overhead. Expansion out of their traditional area looks very much on the agenda, Ellesmere Port onwards, Ormskirk -Preston, Chester - Crewe, Kirkby - Shelmersdale/Wigan. Halton Curve due 2018, initial Chester service.

 

[childwallblues]

Yes , Merseyrail will be announcing new trains by December, will be able to cope with 3rd rail and overhead. Expansion out of their traditional area looks very much on the agenda, Ellesmere Port onwards, Ormskirk -Preston, Chester - Crewe, Kirkby - Shelmersdale/Wigan. Halton Curve due 2018, initial Chester service.

What happened to Bidston-Wrexham?

 

[frodshamfella]

What happened to Bidston-Wrexham?

Also on the agenda although was described as a difficult route from electrification point of view

 

[childwallblues]

Also on the agenda although was described as a difficult route from electrification point of view

Five years ago it was top of the pile. How things change.

 

[ivanhoe]

Five years ago it was top of the pile. How things change.

Do you think that NR's initial quotation for electrification was responsible for it? Did they not quote £50 million which was 'laughed 'at at the time by Merseytravel?

 

[Tremzinho]

Do you think that NR's initial quotation for electrification was responsible for it? Did they not quote £50 million which was 'laughed 'at at the time by Merseytravel?

Actually £50 Million was the figure estimated by Merseytravel's consultants. NR then quoted £200 Million, which is why the scheme was promptly put on the back burner.

 

[childwallblues]

Actually £50 Million was the figure estimated by Merseytravel's consultants. NR then quoted £200 Million, which is why the scheme was promptly put on the back burner.

Nearly.
Merseytravel estimate was I understand £80 million and NR £207 million.

 

[frodshamfella]

Nearly.
Merseytravel estimate was I understand £80 million and NR £207 million.

I'm no expert in these matters but what I did learn was that Merseyrail have issues with electric supply from Scottish Power, there are only 3 points where current is drawn from and this results in low power in areas, sending sufficient current as far as Southport is a challenge apparently. With network expansion plan's this will need resolving. Extension from Chester to Crewe is an idea to link into HS2, providing Wirral with a connection to it. Bidston to Wrexham was said there were incline / Power problems to resolve, but to take over the route is an aspiration. 3rd rail is highly unlikely to expand any more, hence the need for overhead capabilities.

Ormskirk to Preston was also spoke of quite a bit.

 

[childwallblues]

Travelled on 07.53 last Saturday Chester to Runcorn over the curve, 7 passengers on board, which I though wasn't so bad considering the frequency, and most were not just going for the ride, a few had suit cases, so I was guessing heading for Liverpool South Parkway to go to Airport, so bring on full service !

16 July there is an alteration to service, arranged by NCRUG. Leaving Chester as normal, but calling also at Helsby, Frodsham and extended to South Parkway.

That train is normally rammed and standing from Frodsham.

 

[6Gman]

I'm no expert in these matters but what I did learn was that Merseyrail have issues with electric supply from Scottish Power, there are only 3 points where current is drawn from and this results in low power in areas, sending sufficient current as far as Southport is a challenge apparently. With network expansion plan's this will need resolving. Extension from Chester to Crewe is an idea to link into HS2, providing Wirral with a connection to it. Bidston to Wrexham was said there were incline / Power problems to resolve, but to take over the route is an aspiration. 3rd rail is highly unlikely to expand any more, hence the need for overhead capabilities.

Ormskirk to Preston was also spoke of quite a bit.

I understand what Wirral gains, but the thought of Crewe - Chester trains linked to what goes on underneath Liverpool is not appealing!

 

[Sox]

This has probably been posted already but just in case:

Hooton to Lime Street via Halton Curve

https://youtu.be/1vlMmT-BD6o

 

[childwallblues]

I understand what Wirral gains, but the thought of Crewe - Chester trains linked to what goes on underneath Liverpool is not appealing!

What are you inferring?

 

[Camden]

Congestion delays I would have thought. Although I would have thought the concern should be the other way around with respect of a system that needs to the minute timeliness in the inner city areas being exposed to potential delays inherent to longer distance services running over mixed used lines and stations.

 

[kieron]

Bidston to Wrexham was said there were incline / Power problems to resolve, but to take over the route is an aspiration.

Do you know any more about these?

I didn't think the gradient was as steep as the one through Birkenhead and under the River Mersey (I have seen numbers somewhere, but I have no idea if they're right).

With the power supply, I had assumed that a new feed would be needed however they did it. As there's a power station and a pile of solar panels next to the track in Deeside Industrial Estate, as well as some unused railway-owned land (although I don't know how much), they may be able to arrange a cost effective solution for this.

I understand what Wirral gains, but the thought of Crewe - Chester trains linked to what goes on underneath Liverpool is not appealing!

The only problem I can see with "what goes on underneath Liverpool" is that they use 75mph trains without toilets. Timings seem pretty reliable, there are (as I understand it) plenty of spare paths on the Wirral line, and 50xs are unlikely ever to reach Crewe under their own power anyway.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If Wrexham-Liverpool is to be electrified it should be Wrexham-Chester, linking into the existing Merseyrail route from Chester.
I don't understand the fixation with the Shotton route, which carries far less traffic and is inherently slow.

 

[edwin_m]

If Wrexham-Liverpool is to be electrified it should be Wrexham-Chester, linking into the existing Merseyrail route from Chester.
I don't understand the fixation with the Shotton route, which carries far less traffic and is inherently slow.

The Shotton route passes through more populated areas than Chester-Wrexham, as well as the major employment sites just north of the Dee.

 

[notlob.divad]

If Wrexham-Liverpool is to be electrified it should be Wrexham-Chester, linking into the existing Merseyrail route from Chester.
I don't understand the fixation with the Shotton route, which carries far less traffic and is inherently slow.

Probably because the ending of the service at Bidston and not continuing into Liverpool and around the loop is a really obvious example of a train service not suited to passengers needs in the modern world. Perhaps if the trains on the line actually went to where people want to go the line would get more heavily used.

 

[urbophile]

Yes: affluent middle-class towns like Neston and Heswall presumably already generate a lot of car-borne commuter traffic into Liverpool. A better train service should help all round.

Though I'm not sure about the wisdom of extending Merseyrail beyond the outer suburbs of Liverpool. It's either an urban/suburban Metro system or something more complicated. Toilets apart, who would want to be stuck on a through journey from somewhere like Crewe or Wrexham if it stopped at every station, often only a mile or so apart? There is plenty of scope for new stations on the existing network, and filling in the geographical gaps by reopening disused lines, without trying to become a regional network as well. The Borderlands line should be electrified as far as Neston, interchanging there with a more frequent diesel service from Wrexham.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Shotton route passes through more populated areas than Chester-Wrexham, as well as the major employment sites just north of the Dee.

But they don't use the hourly service today.
Everybody would fit on the 153s that used to run the service.
Better to double the current frequency and see if that generates more traffic before spending a fortune electrifying it.
The business case is hopeless, except possibly at the top end of the Wirral, but even there the stations are poorly sited.
Wrexham-Chester is underserved and has the demand.
It also gives you "network benefits" that the Shotton route doesn't, especially if Chester-Crewe (and maybe Chester-Warrington/Runcorn) is wired at the same time.

 

[frodshamfella]

Do you know any more about these?

I didn't think the gradient was as steep as the one through Birkenhead and under the River Mersey (I have seen numbers somewhere, but I have no idea if they're right).

With the power supply, I had assumed that a new feed would be needed however they did it. As there's a power station and a pile of solar panels next to the track in Deeside Industrial Estate, as well as some unused railway-owned land (although I don't know how much), they may be able to arrange a cost effective solution for this.

The only problem I can see with "what goes on underneath Liverpool" is that they use 75mph trains without toilets. Timings seem pretty reliable, there are (as I understand it) plenty of spare paths on the Wirral line, and 50xs are unlikely ever to reach Crewe under their own power anyway.

No sorry I don't know anymore about the gradient issue.
I do know that the new train fleet has been decided and will be announced before the years out. I think the new fleet may well have loos.

 

[edwin_m]

But they don't use the hourly service today.
Everybody would fit on the 153s that used to run the service.
Better to double the current frequency and see if that generates more traffic before spending a fortune electrifying it.
The business case is hopeless, except possibly at the top end of the Wirral, but even there the stations are poorly sited.
Wrexham-Chester is underserved and has the demand.
It also gives you "network benefits" that the Shotton route doesn't, especially if Chester-Crewe (and maybe Chester-Warrington/Runcorn) is wired at the same time.

It's more about potential than actual demand. Doubling the service would be one way of testing this, though it wouldn't solve the problem of the change at Bidston. The Borderlands has the potential to do several things (in brackets why it doesn't today):
- Connection of relatively populated area of the Wirral into Liverpool (change en route, service not frequent enough)
- Through Wrexham-Liverpool service (change en route)
- Linking areas of high unemployment at both ends of the route with employment areas in the middle (no station convenient for employment area)
- Connections at Shotton eastwards and westwards (service too infrequent on both routes, this one probably a lost cause)

On the other hand Chester-Wrexham already has a fast hourly service, and extending the Halton Curve service to Wrexham would double the frequency and give Wrexham direct trains to Liverpool and to South Parkway for the airport. However that would damage the case for improving the Borderlands line because it would syphon off some of the potential passengers.

 

[Holly]

It's more about potential than actual demand. Doubling the service would be one way of testing this, though it wouldn't solve the problem of the change at Bidston. The Borderlands has the potential to do several things (in brackets why it doesn't today):
- Connection of relatively populated area of the Wirral into Liverpool (change en route, service not frequent enough)
- Through Wrexham-Liverpool service (change en route)
- Linking areas of high unemployment at both ends of the route with employment areas in the middle (no station convenient for employment area)
- Connections at Shotton eastwards and westwards (service too infrequent on both routes, this one probably a lost cause) ...

Merely extending to Birkenhead North (as it used to do) would be a significant improvement. It should never have been cut back to Bidston. I believe that requires an extra trainset. But having an extra trainset would allow a slightly improved service at peak hours. Not to mention improved reliability from increased recovery margins outside peak hours.

 

[childwallblues]

Merely extending to Birkenhead North (as it used to do) would be a significant improvement. It should never have been cut back to Bidston. I believe that requires an extra trainset. But having an extra trainset would allow a slightly improved service at peak hours. Not to mention improved reliability from increased recovery margins outside peak hours.

Extending to Birkenhead North requires the use of an extra unit which I believe was the original reason for cutting back to Bidston.

 

[edwin_m]

As is well known, the journey time is only just under one hour so with two units in service turnarounds are marginal to provide an hourly service. An extra unit would in principle allow turnarounds of about 20min each end, and going up to five units would allow a half-hourly service with reasonable turnarounds. I guess something like this could happen when DMUs are displaced from Greater Anglia.

However turnaround arrangements at the northern end aren't ideal. I believe the unit currently reverses in the platform at Bidston. There is a siding which looks like it is intended to refuge the Wrexham train, so it could have a longer turnaround without blocking Merseyrail trains. However at Birkenhead North the train would have to drop passengers and wait in the platform loop, then reverse on the main line at the Liverpool end before picking up in a short stop between the fairly intensive Merseyrail service. I'm not sure whether it is possible to change the layout to make this easier.

 

[kieron]

If Wrexham-Liverpool is to be electrified it should be Wrexham-Chester, linking into the existing Merseyrail route from Chester.
I don't understand the fixation with the Shotton route, which carries far less traffic and is inherently slow.

It may be easier to improve the linespeed there (where a lot of it may be down to poor quality track) than on the route through Bebington (where it competes with the frequent slow service) or, indeed, Runcorn (where it suffers from Runcorn being so much further east than Liverpool and Wrexham).

The real reason for the focus was, as far as I know, that Merseytravel were originally looking at something between Liverpool and M53 J3. That was changed a few times as the idea developed, before eventually being dropped.

For Chester-Wrexham General in particular, there are ongoing engineering works which should lead to the service being made more frequent. They may consider what to do next once they know what effect this has on passengers.

There is a siding which looks like it is intended to refuge the Wrexham train, so it could have a longer turnaround without blocking Merseyrail trains.

I've seen the Wrexham-Bidston train go back towards Upton when it had a longer layover at Bidston, returning shortly before its departure time. That would probably be a neater solution. It means staying out of the way of the train behind it during the layover, but it doesn't have to go on the Liverpool-bound line at all, reducing conflict there.