Halton Curve upgrade is on

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would I be right in thinking arriva will operate this because the future plan is for the service to run beyond Chester anyway ?

Maybe, but also that the Northern spec did not include it, while the W&B spec is still being formulated.
At the end of the day they will probably be the same trains.
Northern is Arriva too, of course.
W&B might not be in 15 months' time.

 

[Railman]

I think all the news agencies are watching each other "on line" nowadays and a story in one is soon revamped and put out on another. NR might be responding to something that they have picked up "on the Radar".
Murphy will be doing the civil engineering work, others will be doing the signalling etc. There is a new treadle installed just off the Warrington platform end at Frodsham, might be something to do with a temporary staff warning system when working on track.
Lots of concrete cable troughing in piles on the chord. Interestingly the goods loop at Frodsham seems to be going to survive when the new Panel is installed at the signal box. Cant see there is much need for it nowadays.

 

[snowball]

I think all the news agencies are watching each other "on line" nowadays and a story in one is soon revamped and put out on another. NR might be responding to something that they have picked up "on the Radar".

I'm not clear what this is meant to be a response to. Yesteday's event was clearly a premeditated, highly organised media jamboree. Have you not been clicking on the links in the posts above? Men in orange suits don't spontaneously stand in a row holding up placards. Somebody has to organise them.

 

[sw1ller]

Chester to Liverpool Lime St is 17m22c via Hooton (and 14 intermediate stations). Some trains miss out Capenhurst, but otherwise it's a tedious all stations.
Via the Halton Curve it is 27m36c, with 7 intermediate stations. It seems the new trains will stop at most of these.

Speeds via Hooton are 70mph max (60 north of Hooton and much slower north of Rock Ferry.
Speeds via Runcorn are 75mph on the Cheshire section and 80-95 north of Ditton (very slow on the Halton Curve and through the junctions at either end, and after Wavertree).
Journey times are going to be much the same at about 45 minutes either way.

Also, passengers are going to go crazy over the fact they can have a beer and go to the toilet if travelling via the Halton curve! Its going to make Chester races and such unbearable!!

 

[urbophile]

Chester to Liverpool Lime St is 17m22c via Hooton (and 14 intermediate stations). Some trains miss out Capenhurst, but otherwise it's a tedious all stations.
Via the Halton Curve it is 27m36c, with 7 intermediate stations. It seems the new trains will stop at most of these.

Speeds via Hooton are 70mph max (60 north of Hooton and much slower north of Rock Ferry.
Speeds via Runcorn are 75mph on the Cheshire section and 80-95 north of Ditton (very slow on the Halton Curve and through the junctions at either end, and after Wavertree).
Journey times are going to be much the same at about 45 minutes either way.

Except that from south Liverpool it will be about 35 minutes vs over an hour. Frequency is not such a big consideration for longer journeys, but it would be nice to see at least one tph going beyond Chester to North Wales as well as a local service.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I passed Frodsham Junction this evening and there was some heavy equipment parked adjacent to the signal box. Hard to tell what it was but looked like earth moving type equipment.

 

[KevinTurvey]

I think this will at last make journey times viable for many people if trains do go direct into North Wales, and I hope this will be a success.

For a current journey say from the South of Liverpool, involving two changes and a 2-3 hour total journey time, this compares poorly when they could drive in perhaps half the time. A direct train time would now be similar to this, and worth considering rather than as a last resort.

There are, as has been mentioned by others, significant cultural and family connections between Liverpool and N Wales, so there will always be some desire to travel between these places. The operator will also need to make sure the service is advertised properly.

 

[Railman]

When this service comes into operation, I believe "the sum of the parts will be greater than the whole". By which I mean the number of passengers using the service to go from station to stations will be more than the passengers going end to end. A passenger from Helsby or Frodsham to London, would find free car parking, and depending on time table a quicker experience than at present driving to Runcorn and paying to park.
Commuters/ shoppers to Liverpool, again free parking and no bridge tolls compared to driving.
The North Wales to Liverpool through tickets are is a small fraction of the potential for this service. I agree proper advertising on launch will be required but seating capacity could quickly be an issue.
I hope Merseytravel get a fair proportion of the revenue, for the tickets sold for travel that never gets to Liverpool on the train they subsidise! Assuming of course people pay if there are no ticket offices or guards on the trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I hope Merseytravel get a fair proportion of the revenue, for the tickets sold for travel that never gets to Liverpool on the train they subsidise! Assuming of course people pay if there are no ticket offices or guards on the trains.

It's not really Merseytravel money.
The funding came from the government's Liverpool City Region deal, and just channelled through Merseytravel as sponsor (and NR for the construction).
It will eventually get folded in to one of the TOC franchise contracts (probably W&B).

 

[frodshamfella]

The link will also make getting to Liverpool Airport so much easier from Cheshire and North Wales

 

[Muzer]

This has been pretty quick, all things considered, for a national rail network project like this! Is there an ETA for trains actually running?

 

[Cheshire Rover]

This has been pretty quick, all things considered, for a national rail network project like this! Is there an ETA for trains actually running?

I believe the first service is due to start December 2018.

 

[childwallblues]

This has been pretty quick, all things considered, for a national rail network project like this! Is there an ETA for trains actually running?

Work has now started on the Halton Curve.

 

[frodshamfella]

I was wondering if the existing track would be deemed fine for a regular service over the curve, I suppose it is but just wondered if anyone knew ?

 

[krus_aragon]

I was wondering if the existing track would be deemed fine for a regular service over the curve, I suppose it is but just wondered if anyone knew ?

The issue with the existing track layout is that the pointwork only allows trains to travel northbound towards Runcorn: you can't reach the curve coming south. Or were you thinking about the condition of the track along the curve?

 

[Railman]

Obviously each end will have to be new to create the new junctions, but you must remember no one has any interest in saving money when someone else is paying the bill. So i would not be surprised if suddenly the vast majority if not all ends up "needing renewal". It would be a good place to re-use materials from the NR re-cycling depot, since the linespeed will never be that fast.

 

[craigybagel]

Given its presumably only had minimal maintenance over the years, and the current linespeed is only 20 IIRC, I'd be amazed if some degree of relaying didn't take place as well as the remodeling of the junctions at each end.

 

[frodshamfella]

The issue with the existing track layout is that the pointwork only allows trains to travel northbound towards Runcorn: you can't reach the curve coming south. Or were you thinking about the condition of the track along the curve?

the condition really.

 

[M28361M]

Update on the Halton Curve project from Merseytravel: (LINK)

Work over the next two Sundays will see a new track crossover at Frodsham Junction installed to allow trains to move in both directions from the main line onto the ‘Curve’. Engineers will also be taking advantage of the closure to install new cable ducting at Helsby station.
The new cable route will be used to install a new electrical cable which will power the new signalling equipment at Frodsham next year.

Looks like things are progressing well on site.

 

[frodshamfella]

Good to hear

 

[driver_m]

Does anyone have any idea how many signals are being put in. I.e. would you be able to send a couple of trains down there, such as at Crewe towards Bartholemy Jn. or just one and the running lines at either end would have something sat waiting to access it until the other train has cleared the single line?

 

[The Planner]

One train on the branch only. In the up direction towards Frodsham you cannot as there is only the distant FJ12 and 3 aspect FJ10 so only one train in that direction. On the down 3 aspect distant WE7803 and 4 aspect WE7805 approaching Halton Jn.

 

[driver_m]

One train on the branch only. In the up direction towards Frodsham you cannot as there is only the distant FJ12 and 3 aspect FJ10 so only one train in that direction. On the down 3 aspect distant WE7803 and 4 aspect WE7805 approaching Halton Jn.

Cheers for the reply. What are you going to do about potential problems if the single line goes belly up? Hold stuff at Chester/ditton?

 

[The Planner]

They will probably get cancelled.

 

[frodshamfella]

Update on the Halton Curve project from Merseytravel: (LINK)



Looks like things are progressing well on site.

Just been through Frodsham, you can see work in progress.

 

[mpb56125]

Video recording loco ran over the Halton Curve the last two days and also doing various lines and sidings to Wavertree Junction / Hunts Cross in connection with the re-signalling work.
CWR has dropped ready for installation https://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains-2018/January-2018/i-BLJKMV8/A

Short OHL run off being re-installed again at Halton Junction. https://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains-2018/January-2018/i-X9Gm6br/A

Before the line was singled the OHL use to run up to this disused signal https://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains-2018/January-2018/i-TSn6KXJ/A

Mark
https://mark5812.smugmug.com

 

[absolutelymilk]

Upgrades taking place over the next two weeks: https://t.co/GgJbDwRysL

Work continues on the 1.5 miles of rail track near Frodsham, known as the ‘Halton Curve’ next weekend, Saturday 10 – Sunday 11 February and Saturday 17 – Sunday 18 February.
Network Rail’s Team Orange will be renewing track, recovering old signals and commissioning new colour-light signals and associated signalling equipment in the Frodsham area. A new modern, signalling panel will be installed inside Frodsham signal box in place of the traditional mechanical levers which have been used to control the train movements on the Chester-Warrington line and Halton Curve since the 1900s!

Good to see work starting!

 

[Gareth]

Will it definitely be ATW running the Liverpool-Chester service? I have been presuming so as there is a clear aspiration to eventually extend Halton Curve services into Wales but I've not seen anything official about which TOC will be running it.

Interesting from an ORCATS point of view, because if it is ATW there'll be yet another operator between Lime Street & South Parkway (to add to Northern, London NW, TPE & EMT) as well as between Lime Street & Runcorn (to add to London NW & Virgin). Indeed, there'll be no less than six TOCs operating out of Lime Street high level, which will be fun for livery enthusiasts.

I do wonder how much a ticket will cost between Lime Street/South Parkway & Chester. It seems despite joining the combined authority, Halton doesn't want to give up its transport competence to Merseytravel. The only think that seems to have changed at the moment is Merseytravel branding at bus stops in the borough. You can't currently use either Saveaway or Railpass tickets in Halton. As someone who may well find it quicker to get to Chester via an 86 bus to South Parkway it would be disappointing if there was a significant difference in cost especially as I'd have to pay separately for the bus to South Parkway whereas a Saveaway would cover my entire journey via the Wirral Line. I think Merseytravel needs to, at the very least, get some sort of bilateral arrangement in place with Halton where 'all area' Saveaways can be used via Runcorn, in the same way they can be used on the Cheshire & Lancashire sections of Merseyrail. While we're at it, an agreement with TfGM to add Bryn & Wigan North Western would be nice too.

 

[sw1ller]

Will it definitely be ATW running the Liverpool-Chester service? I have been presuming so as there is a clear aspiration to eventually extend Halton Curve services into Wales but I've not seen anything official about which TOC will be running it.

ATW have just taken on a number of trainee drivers to cover it. Don’t know where the units are coming from though.

 

[frodshamfella]

Will it definitely be ATW running the Liverpool-Chester service? I have been presuming so as there is a clear aspiration to eventually extend Halton Curve services into Wales but I've not seen anything official about which TOC will be running it.

Interesting from an ORCATS point of view, because if it is ATW there'll be yet another operator between Lime Street & South Parkway (to add to Northern, London NW, TPE & EMT) as well as between Lime Street & Runcorn (to add to London NW & Virgin). Indeed, there'll be no less than six TOCs operating out of Lime Street high level, which will be fun for livery enthusiasts.

I do wonder how much a ticket will cost between Lime Street/South Parkway & Chester. It seems despite joining the combined authority, Halton doesn't want to give up its transport competence to Merseytravel. The only think that seems to have changed at the moment is Merseytravel branding at bus stops in the borough. You can't currently use either Saveaway or Railpass tickets in Halton. As someone who may well find it quicker to get to Chester via an 86 bus to South Parkway it would be disappointing if there was a significant difference in cost especially as I'd have to pay separately for the bus to South Parkway whereas a Saveaway would cover my entire journey via the Wirral Line. I think Merseytravel needs to, at the very least, get some sort of bilateral arrangement in place with Halton where 'all area' Saveaways can be used via Runcorn, in the same way they can be used on the Cheshire & Lancashire sections of Merseyrail. While we're at it, an agreement with TfGM to add Bryn & Wigan North Western would be nice too.

Yes makes perfect sense.