Halton Curve upgrade is on

[childwallblues]

We used to cover Halton junction in the 1980s, and the junction was 2 x single leads with switch diamonds to form a double junction. I think it was No8 points the switch diamonds. they were a "reliability" issue and at the time there was a "money squeeze". So as there was no booked service that could not be diverted (frieght only as required) the switch diamonds were plain lined along with the up main connection. It was not a proper recovery as it was also a minimum spend job, so all the wirring and interlocking remained. The signal had the route indicator removed although its mounting frame was still left in situ, and could be seen around the signal head for a long time afterwards. Don't know if it is still there. Maybe there has been some work done since to recover equipment but at the time it could have been reinstated in a weekend. (BR working)
I thought in all the press releases on the chord, the Welsh Government had put up the £10m to re-instate the connection. So it would seem logical that they should have some say over what sort of service is run and who provides it?

I did not think that George Osborne made announcements on behalf of the Welsh Government.

 

[Camden]

I doubt that the WAG will have put up the money, given its location. Also, initially, it looks like the services using it will terminate at Chester while it gets up and running, so not even crossing into Wales for a while.

In terms of agreed funding and the involvement of Welsh authorities, my understanding is that Merseytravel had to put up the money for the study in order to get the whole thing underway in a timely manner. Perhaps gives an idea as to the likelihood of north Wales coming by the £10m.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think the £10m was part of the City Deal between the Treasury and Liverpool City Region, and so announced by George Osborne.
In the same pot as funding for the new Mersey road bridge.

 

[Railman]

Yes only the junction turned to the right not left, and the photo has fixed crossings not switch diamonds but the overall effect is the same.
There had been a trailing crossover, on the mainline nothing to do with the Branch, and a throw back to "Bank engine" working up the hill from Runcorn I would think. Long gone now.

 

[freelander]

why have double track on the curve and spend 10k on something which is simple to solve by using logic?. at the moment one train a week goes from Chester to Liverpool via the curve to keep it open. Warrington has a service which goes to Liverpool, why not have the Chester to Liverpool via the curve and return to Chester via Warrington use the route used by the Manchester to Wales. pathing should not be a problem as trains are basically every hour and the freight has since finished. the problem which I see as regards to the curve is that it is only going to be used by the people from Helsby and Frodsham to get to Liverpool without going into Chester and rail users from Runcorn for Chester without going into Liverpool, due to the small number of people using these routes is spending 10k justified.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

why have double track on the curve and spend 10k on something which is simple to solve by using logic?. at the moment one train a week goes from Chester to Liverpool via the curve to keep it open. Warrington has a service which goes to Liverpool, why not have the Chester to Liverpool via the curve and return to Chester via Warrington use the route used by the Manchester to Wales. pathing should not be a problem as trains are basically every hour and the freight has since finished. the problem which I see as regards to the curve is that it is only going to be used by the people from Helsby and Frodsham to get to Liverpool without going into Chester and rail users from Runcorn for Chester without going into Liverpool, due to the small number of people using these routes is spending 10k justified.

There are powerful voices at work here for the £10m (not £10K!).
Liverpool wants to open up the south of the city and airport, especially round the Mersey estuary.
Chester wants a "quicker" (actually meaning fewer stops) service to Liverpool than the 45m with 16 stops to Central on Merseyrail.
The North Wales counties want a direct service to Liverpool from places like Wrexham and Colwyn Bay.
I don't think the local service from Helsby/Frodsham comes very high up this list of priorities.
Once the link is open there will then be a row about stopping patterns.
We might end up with a painfully slow service from Chester to Lime St, no better than that to Central.

 

[Sox]

There are powerful voices at work here for the £10m (not £10K!).
Liverpool wants to open up the south of the city and airport, especially round the Mersey estuary.
Chester wants a "quicker" (actually meaning fewer stops) service to Liverpool than the 45m with 16 stops to Central on Merseyrail.
The North Wales counties want a direct service to Liverpool from places like Wrexham and Colwyn Bay.
I don't think the local service from Helsby/Frodsham comes very high up this list of priorities.
Once the link is open there will then be a row about stopping patterns.
We might end up with a painfully slow service from Chester to Lime St, no better than that to Central.

I can go for that one, Chester to Liverpool via Merseyrail feels like being boiled in oil.

 

[absolutelymilk]

why have double track on the curve and spend 10k on something which is simple to solve by using logic?. at the moment one train a week goes from Chester to Liverpool via the curve to keep it open. Warrington has a service which goes to Liverpool, why not have the Chester to Liverpool via the curve and return to Chester via Warrington use the route used by the Manchester to Wales. pathing should not be a problem as trains are basically every hour and the freight has since finished.

Are you suggesting that this should happen once a week or hourly? If the latter then the train would have to run on the Northern route from Liverpool to Manchester (which already has 3 tph, including one fast train) (or the Liverpool to Warrington Central, which has 4 tph)

Liverpool wants to open up the south of the city and airport, especially round the Mersey estuary.
Chester wants a "quicker" (actually meaning fewer stops) service to Liverpool than the 45m with 16 stops to Central on Merseyrail.
The North Wales counties want a direct service to Liverpool from places like Wrexham and Colwyn Bay.
Once the link is open there will then be a row about stopping patterns.
We might end up with a painfully slow service from Chester to Lime St, no better than that to Central.

Even if that did happen, it would still be able to act as diversionary route in case of engineering works/other disruption on the Merseyrail line via Birkenhead and for people wanting to go to Liverpool Airport

 

[cle]

There are powerful voices at work here for the £10m (not £10K!).
Liverpool wants to open up the south of the city and airport, especially round the Mersey estuary.
Chester wants a "quicker" (actually meaning fewer stops) service to Liverpool than the 45m with 16 stops to Central on Merseyrail.
The North Wales counties want a direct service to Liverpool from places like Wrexham and Colwyn Bay.
I don't think the local service from Helsby/Frodsham comes very high up this list of priorities.
Once the link is open there will then be a row about stopping patterns.
We might end up with a painfully slow service from Chester to Lime St, no better than that to Central.

Will the curve be fully doubled?

Even if not, do we have to limit ourselves to just 1tph each way.

If not you could have something like this each hour:
Liverpool LS - all local stations - Chester
Liverpool LS - a few stations - Chester - Wrexham
Liverpool LS - SP - Runcorn - Chester and then along to Llandudno or Bangor/Holyhead.

This last one could maybe replace the Crewe/Chester to Holyhead trains. London connections are good from Chester and Runcorn. Birmingham less so I suppose.

 

[freelander]

like I said in my last post, pathing should not be a problem as their is already a path from Liverpool to Warrington oth which is one off the three you mention only difference being instead of terminating at Warrington it could continue to Chester and on return would use the curve back to Liverpool with a possibility of every 2 hours would return via Warrington to Liverpool.

it's only a thought

 

[childwallblues]

I think the £10m was part of the City Deal between the Treasury and Liverpool City Region, and so announced by George Osborne.
In the same pot as funding for the new Mersey road bridge.

I think that you are correct.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

This is the business case that Merseytravel put together.
http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/about-us/local-transport-delivery/Documents/Halton%20Curve%20OBC%20-%20Final%20Version%20May%202015%20-%20Redacted%20-%20For%20posting.pdf

 

[mpb56125]

Very much off topic and as far as I am aware 142's are not permitted on the Halton Curve ☺

Correct 142's are banned, but at least 2 have managed to sneak around in the past.

Today the Northern Belle is making two trips over the line.
https://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains-2015/December-2015/i-pXrwW8M/A
https://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains-2015/December-2015/i-ChrZDb6/A

Mark
https://mark5812.smugmug.com
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, I guess it must have looked something like this:

This is how Halton Junction used to look like
https://mark5812.smugmug.com/UKpicturesclassorder/Class-47/i-bPmmrNB

Mark
https://mark5812.smugmug.com

 

[frodshamfella]

why have double track on the curve and spend 10k on something which is simple to solve by using logic?. at the moment one train a week goes from Chester to Liverpool via the curve to keep it open. Warrington has a service which goes to Liverpool, why not have the Chester to Liverpool via the curve and return to Chester via Warrington use the route used by the Manchester to Wales. pathing should not be a problem as trains are basically every hour and the freight has since finished. the problem which I see as regards to the curve is that it is only going to be used by the people from Helsby and Frodsham to get to Liverpool without going into Chester and rail users from Runcorn for Chester without going into Liverpool, due to the small number of people using these routes is spending 10k justified.

I live close to frodsham and use the station often, I'd really welcome a direct Liverpool service and one that offers airport access too. I've never considered travelling to Liverpool via Chester , just too slow. One extra train giving Frodsham and Helsby a 30 mins service would be great.

 

[childwallblues]

A direct service from Helsby/Frodsham/Chester to Liverpool will become more attractive when the new road crossing opens. This will be a toll bridge and also tolls will be introduced on the present Jubilee bridge.

 

[Railman]

I agree totally, although Merseytravel have commission the reports, the route would alter the travel plans for may local people that are to be faced with an added cost to their commuting. I dont think the Merseyside report took this into account fully.
I think demand will outstrip supply very quickly if this route ever reopens. Extra car parking at Frodsham and Helsby stations will be required before any service starts and should be investigated now.
Unfortunately I can see it slipping into never never land.

 

[Camden]

As I understand it, the project itself is tied in with other works being carried out in the vicinity, and so it is on an essentially automated timeline and unable to slip, hence Merseytravel stumping up the cash for the report, the selection of the easiest Chester service to inaugurate it with etc. I haven't seen or heard anything that would make me believe that this vicinity project is delayed significantly. Studies for things like car parks will have to come later or in parallel. There isn't anything in the report to suggest there will be issues, however if there are issues it will only be because it is a success and being used by more people than anticipated. Not a reason for delaying.

 

[6Gman]

People campaigning for this link make great play of "access to Liverpool Airport".

Of course that means alighting at South Parkway and then catching a bus. The impression I get is that few people choose that option (bear in mind that SP has through trains to/from Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Crewe, Birmingham and numerous intermediate stops) - to the extent that the dedicated bus link was withdrawn after months of carrying fresh air to and fro!

Have the business plans made any estimate of the size of the air market?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Will the curve be fully doubled?

Even if not, do we have to limit ourselves to just 1tph each way.

If not you could have something like this each hour:
Liverpool LS - all local stations - Chester
Liverpool LS - a few stations - Chester - Wrexham
Liverpool LS - SP - Runcorn - Chester and then along to Llandudno or Bangor/Holyhead.

This last one could maybe replace the Crewe/Chester to Holyhead trains. London connections are good from Chester and Runcorn. Birmingham less so I suppose.

If you get 3 trains per hour between Chester and Runcorn I fear our Knutsford advocate on here would have apoplexy!

Seriously, I suspect what we'll get is a 153 shuttling between Chester and Liverpool, all stations to South Parkway then fast (ish) to Lime Street (pathing may mean it has to go SL).

Extension to Wrexham may be the next step.

The North Wales Coast can't justify 3 trains ph and Manchester and S Wales (sadly!) are higher priorities.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Seriously, I suspect what we'll get is a 153 shuttling between Chester and Liverpool, all stations to South Parkway then fast (ish) to Lime Street (pathing may mean it has to go SL).

And that means folk from Chester (and further west/south) will continue to use Merseyrail via Birkenhead.
4tph beats 1tph any day, even if slightly faster which I doubt it will be.
Slow line from LPY is almost a given to avoid conflict with the CLC.
NR even works one of the LM Birmingham services slow line for this reason.

 

[6Gman]

And that means folk from Chester (and further west/south) will continue to use Merseyrail via Birkenhead.
4tph beats 1tph any day, even if slightly faster which I doubt it will be.
Slow line from LPY is almost a given to avoid conflict with the CLC.
NR even works one of the LM Birmingham services slow line for this reason.

I went to Liverpool today, and had an ATW timetable with me, and it struck me that since a 350 takes 20 minutes to get from Lime Street to Runcorn and a 175 takes 20 minutes to get from Chester to Runcorn (East) then Chester - Liverpool via the Halton Curve is going to take around 40 minutes, which is scarcely faster than via Rock Ferry.

So the only markets to benefit would be Chester to South Parkway, and Helsby/Frodsham to both SP and Liverpool. Would that fill even a 153?

(Puts on tin hat)

Perhaps Altrincham - Liverpool via Knutsford, Northwich and Parkway would be a better option?

(Puts on body armour)

 

[Camden]

The Chester service is just to inaugurate the line and get it off the ground. The real benefit will come when it is extended into Wales, which will then eliminate the need to change.

 

[6Gman]

The Chester service is just to inaugurate the line and get it off the ground. The real benefit will come when it is extended into Wales, which will then eliminate the need to change.

"The real benefit will come if it is extended ..."

 

[absolutelymilk]

I went to Liverpool today, and had an ATW timetable with me, and it struck me that since a 350 takes 20 minutes to get from Lime Street to Runcorn and a 175 takes 20 minutes to get from Chester to Runcorn (East) then Chester - Liverpool via the Halton Curve is going to take around 40 minutes, which is scarcely faster than via Rock Ferry.

So the only markets to benefit would be Chester to South Parkway, and Helsby/Frodsham to both SP and Liverpool. Would that fill even a 153?

Would tickets to Liverpool from Chester not be valid for both Merseyrail and Halton Curve trains? So commuters could just get on the next available one? The addition of tables might be enough to tempt some commuters...

 

[craigybagel]

Would tickets to Liverpool from Chester not be valid for both Merseyrail and Halton Curve trains? So commuters could just get on the next available one? The addition of tables might be enough to tempt some commuters...

Most travelling after 0930 would probably be on Merseyrail day savers since they're considerably cheaper than standard tickets, but they're only valid via Birkenhead.

 

[8A Rail]

Most travelling after 0930 would probably be on Merseyrail day savers since they're considerably cheaper than standard tickets, but they're only valid via Birkenhead.

This "may" change in the future and tickets may be valid on both routes I suspect? As Halton BC is / will become part of the Liverpool City Region which includes "transport" then the exisiting boundaries will change accordingly. However, I accept there is "void" between Chester and Frodsham so to speak as that is part of Chester and Cheshire West but may through travel to Runcorn will be allowed?

 

[frodshamfella]

People campaigning for this link make great play of "access to Liverpool Airport".

Of course that means alighting at South Parkway and then catching a bus. The impression I get is that few people choose that option (bear in mind that SP has through trains to/from Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Crewe, Birmingham and numerous intermediate stops) - to the extent that the dedicated bus link was withdrawn after months of carrying fresh air to and fro!

Have the business plans made any estimate of the size of the air market?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If you get 3 trains per hour between Chester and Runcorn I fear our Knutsford advocate on here would have apoplexy!

Seriously, I suspect what we'll get is a 153 shuttling between Chester and Liverpool, all stations to South Parkway then fast (ish) to Lime Street (pathing may mean it has to go SL).

Extension to Wrexham may be the next step.

The North Wales Coast can't justify 3 trains ph and Manchester and S Wales (sadly!) are higher priorities.

I use both Manchester Airport and Liverpool Airport, Liverpool Airport probably more because its easier to use ( quicker through security etc) , personally I'd welcome a regular service for Liverpool SP. Demand for air travel will continue to rise, this is illustrated by passenger numbers rising from Liverpool , so any improved access must be welcomed

 

[Camden]

"The real benefit will come if it is extended ..."

Why the pessimism? A direct link between Wrexham/Llandudno and Liverpool is a key aspiration for both sides, would be profitable, and is the whole premise around this project. It doesn't require any additional work other than progressing the business case and getting the money in place, there are no engineering works involved.

The real benefit will come when it is extended.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would tickets to Liverpool from Chester not be valid for both Merseyrail and Halton Curve trains? So commuters could just get on the next available one? The addition of tables might be enough to tempt some commuters...

There already is a "Via Warrington" ATW return (SDR) fare at £11.50 (as well as an "Any Permitted" at £11.60).
Both are much higher than the Merseyrail "Via Birkenhead" fare of £7.10, and aren't covered by the Merseytravel zones.
Merseyrail Day Savers are £4.90, Via Warrington CDR £11.30.

 

[Camden]

The new route wouldn't be via Warrington, though, it would only be via Runcorn which is now officially part of the Liverpool region.

Given that Merseytravel rail tickets are already valid right into Chester via Birkenhead, and given it is most likely for Runcorn to get the benefits of being part of the Liverpool region fully, I don't think it is beyond the realms of possibility for Helsby & Frodsham to get the same arrangement as Chester does (rail only tickets valid).

 

[childwallblues]

I went to Liverpool today, and had an ATW timetable with me, and it struck me that since a 350 takes 20 minutes to get from Lime Street to Runcorn and a 175 takes 20 minutes to get from Chester to Runcorn (East) then Chester - Liverpool via the Halton Curve is going to take around 40 minutes, which is scarcely faster than via Rock Ferry.

So the only markets to benefit would be Chester to South Parkway, and Helsby/Frodsham to both SP and Liverpool. Would that fill even a 153?

On paper you are correct. However the building of a station in the Beechwood area of Runcorn plus car park facilities would open up a vast new market.