GWR Summer Saturday Pembroke Dock Trains

[hornbyfan99]

Improved rail connections would help alot, how do you think the above ferry timetable could be improved?

When I did it, I took the daytime sailing out from Fishguard to Rosslare which connected well with trains at both ends which was no problem.

However coming back I stayed overnight in Rosslare for the 0730 sailing to Fishguard which got me in at 1100. This was quite good especially as this was only part of my 13 and a half hour journey onwards to the Isle of Wight

 

[Jez]

I think the daytime Fishguard boat train is indeed currently booked as a pair of 153s. Agree it should be a 175 or 158 but there isnt enough 175s to cover the existing 175s diagrams at the moment it seems with many of the Manchester/Holyhead to South Wales workings either a 150 or pair of 153s. Also the 158s are pretty much tied to the Cambrian/Birmingham/Holyhead workings.

I assume once the 197s arrive the boat train will be booked for a 197 and the 153s being retained will just work Heart of Wales and Shrewsbury-Crewe local services.

I think that all Pembroke Dock's will also be 197s now the plan has changed from using 170s. Will they be 2 or 3 car 197s?

 

[Anonymous10]

I think the daytime Fishguard boat train is indeed currently booked as a pair of 153s. Agree it should be a 175 or 158 but there isnt enough 175s to cover the existing 175s diagrams at the moment it seems with many of the Manchester/Holyhead to South Wales workings either a 150 or pair of 153s. Also the 158s are pretty much tied to the Camrbian/Birmingham/Holyhead workings.

I assume once the 197s arrive the boat train will be booked for a 197 and the 153s being retained will just work Heart of Wales and Shrewsbury-Crewe local services.

I think that all Pembroke Dock's will also be 197s now the plan has changed from using 170s. Will they be 2 or 3 car 197s?

signs for stop signs have 197 2-3 car so possibly both

 

[Jez]

signs for stop signs have 197 2-3 car so possibly both

Makes sense to have both incase a 3 car replaces a 2 car but I wonder generally if they will be booked to be 2 or 3 cars. I think 2 car is usually sufficient on the Pembroke Docks out of the high summer season (i.e Summer weekends, Bank Holidays and school holidays)

 

[Anonymous10]

Makes sense to have both incase a 3 car replaces a 2 car but I wonder generally if they will be booked to be 2 or 3 cars. I think 2 car is usually sufficient on the Pembroke Docks out of the high summer season (i.e Summer weekends, Bank Holidays and school holidays)

im predicting a 2 car Monday - Thursday during summer and 3 car on weekends and holidays

 

[craigybagel]

I think the daytime Fishguard boat train is indeed currently booked as a pair of 153s. Agree it should be a 175 or 158 but there isnt enough 175s to cover the existing 175s diagrams at the moment it seems with many of the Manchester/Holyhead to South Wales workings either a 150 or pair of 153s. Also the 158s are pretty much tied to the Cambrian/Birmingham/Holyhead workings.

I assume once the 197s arrive the boat train will be booked for a 197 and the 153s being retained will just work Heart of Wales and Shrewsbury-Crewe local services.

I think that all Pembroke Dock's will also be 197s now the plan has changed from using 170s. Will they be 2 or 3 car 197s?

Makes sense to have both incase a 3 car replaces a 2 car but I wonder generally if they will be booked to be 2 or 3 cars. I think 2 car is usually sufficient on the Pembroke Docks out of the high summer season (i.e Summer weekends, Bank Holidays and school holidays)

At the moment, it's hard to say. The original plans would have seen almost exclusively 3 car 170s on West Wales services (other than 197s on Milford Haven services) as there were only 4 2 car 170s and HOWL and Shrewsbury-Crewe would have accounted for pretty much all of them.

All we know now is that the 170s are no longer staying, with 153s covering their HOWL services (and possibly Crewe - Shrewsbury but I don't think that's been confirmed publicly yet) and 197s (freed up by the additional MKIV sets) covering their West Wales services. We don't yet know what combination of 2 and 3 car sets these will be - and as we don't know how exactly the new timetable is going to work either it's pretty hard to predict.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think the daytime Fishguard boat train is indeed currently booked as a pair of 153s. Agree it should be a 175 or 158 but there isnt enough 175s to cover the existing 175s diagrams at the moment it seems with many of the Manchester/Holyhead to South Wales workings either a 150 or pair of 153s. Also the 158s are pretty much tied to the Camrbian/Birmingham/Holyhead workings.

I know I used the words "short term" but perhaps I should have said medium term as I appreciate there isn't the availability of 158s or 175s to deliver a decent Fishguard boat train right now. A pair of 153s is at least better than a 150 or a single 153.

I assume once the 197s arrive the boat train will be booked for a 197 and the 153s being retained will just work Heart of Wales and Shrewsbury-Crewe local services.

I think that all Pembroke Dock's will also be 197s now the plan has changed from using 170s. Will they be 2 or 3 car 197s?

I had assumed the 153s would be replacing the 170s everywhere the latter had been intended to work, although given that TfW would need to retain practically all their 153s to have as many pairs of 153 as they have 170s then perhaps I was mistaken. How many 153s are being retained?

I guess 197s on the Pembroke Dock branch could make sense as a shuttle to Whitland (perhaps they will accelerate fast enough to run hourly) if there was something higher quality to connect onto at Whitland.

A class 197 on the boat train won't be much of a change in quality compared to 153s and 150s; they certainly aren't the "3-car DMUs with near-intercity ambiance" that ideally would be provided. Currently, only 158s/159s and 175 fit that description and there aren't enough of them - I really wanted whatever replaced Arriva Trains Wales to do something about that (ideally as a bi-mode) but so far nothing of the sort has appeared.

 

[Jez]

Worth noting that today the 1250 Fishguard is 3x153 but whenever I've seen it other days its almost always a pair of 153s.

I think they are only keeping 8 single 153s so that will probably be just enough for Heart of Wales and Crewe local once they take into account maintenance requirements etc. I assume they will mostly double up to provide 2 carriages for most journeys. I think the extra MK sets for Cardiff-Manchester will free up some 197s for West Wales Pembroke and Fishguard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 May 2022 ==

At the moment, it's hard to say. The original plans would have seen almost exclusively 3 car 170s on West Wales services (other than 197s on Milford Haven services) as there were only 4 2 car 170s and HOWL and Shrewsbury-Crewe would have accounted for pretty much all of them.

All we know now is that the 170s are no longer staying, with 153s covering their HOWL services (and possibly Crewe - Shrewsbury but I don't think that's been confirmed publicly yet) and 197s (freed up by the additional MKIV sets) covering their West Wales services. We don't yet know what combination of 2 and 3 car sets these will be - and as we don't know how exactly the new timetable is going to work either it's pretty hard to predict.

It would make sense for Crewe local to be 153 at least on the first and last trains of the day to get them to Crewe for maintenance (I think they maintain them there at least some of the time?) Otherwise if they are done in Canton that will include some Cardiff-Swansea work too or empty stock movements to position them in Swansea for HOW. Perhaps a 197 will be used for Crewe-Shrewsbury that dont interact with HOW. As you say this is all speculation at the moment.

 

[Anonymous10]

I know I used the words "short term" but perhaps I should have said medium term as I appreciate there isn't the availability of 158s or 175s to deliver a decent Fishguard boat train right now. A pair of 153s is at least better than a 150 or a single 153.


I had assumed the 153s would be replacing the 170s everywhere the latter had been intended to work, although given that TfW would need to retain practically all their 153s to have as many pairs of 153 as they have 170s then perhaps I was mistaken. How many 153s are being retained?

I guess 197s on the Pembroke Dock branch could make sense as a shuttle to Whitland (perhaps they will accelerate fast enough to run hourly) if there was something higher quality to connect onto at Whitland.

A class 197 on the boat train won't be much of a change in quality compared to 153s and 150s; they certainly aren't the "3-car DMUs with near-intercity ambiance" that ideally would be provided. Currently, only 158s/159s and 175 fit that description and there aren't enough of them - I really wanted whatever replaced Arriva Trains Wales to do something about that (ideally as a bi-mode) but so far nothing of the sort has appeared.

It's been pointed out several times im sure one was in response to you

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think they are only keeping 8 single 153s so that will probably be just enough for Heart of Wales and Crewe local once they take into account maintenance requirements etc. I assume they will mostly double up to provide 2 carriages for most journeys.

Yes, I assume they will run in pairs meaning only four 2-car sets and nowhere near enough to cover the Pembrokeshire work as well as HOWL so you must be right about more 197s planned for Pembrokeshire. God help us.

 

[Anonymous10]

Yes, I assume they will run in pairs meaning only four 2-car sets and nowhere near enough to cover the Pembrokeshire work as well as HOWL so you must be right about more 197s planned for Pembrokeshire. God help us.

your constant distaste for the 197s is getting rather old in every thread the pembroke dock branch is a short distance stopping service with in summer high usage and is ideal for 197 working.

 

[Jez]

Yes probably 3 x 2 car sets booked daily as one pair will probably undergo maintenance or at least one unit each day leaving a 153 spare.

I think 197s will be an improvement on Pembroke Docks compared to the 150s and 153s we get now. Occasionally a 158 turns up but not so often recently..

 

[Rhydgaled]

the pembroke dock branch is a short distance stopping service with in summer high usage and is ideal for 197 working.

It's only short distance if operated as a shuttle to Whitland. As I mentioned a few posts up 197s could make sense in that case. Pembroke Dock to Swansea as an all-stations stopper however is well over two hours.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I think the daytime Fishguard boat train is indeed currently booked as a pair of 153s. Agree it should be a 175 or 158 but there isnt enough 175s to cover the existing 175s diagrams at the moment it seems with many of the Manchester/Holyhead to South Wales workings either a 150 or pair of 153s. Also the 158s are pretty much tied to the Cambrian/Birmingham/Holyhead workings.

The later 16.02 Cardiff - Fishguard was 153 329 + 153 312 today and I'm sure I've seen the same working twice in recent weeks also as a pair of 153s, so this does look like 153s are the standard choice for that route at the moment.

 

[craigybagel]

The later 16.02 Cardiff - Fishguard was 153 329 + 153 312 today and I'm sure I've seen the same working twice in recent weeks also as a pair of 153s, so this does look like 153s are the standard choice for that route at the moment.

It is indeed booked for 2 X 153.

 

[Anonymous10]

It's only short distance if operated as a shuttle to Whitland. As I mentioned a few posts up 197s could make sense in that case. Pembroke Dock to Swansea as an all-stations stopper however is well over two hours.

and id personally be fine with it and I'll be one the end users now lets agree to disagree alot of people do not want to see this discussion

 

[Jez]

The later 16.02 Cardiff - Fishguard was 153 329 + 153 312 today and I'm sure I've seen the same working twice in recent weeks also as a pair of 153s, so this does look like 153s are the standard choice for that route at the moment.

Seems to be at the moment. Pembroke Dock also seems to be a mixture of 150s and 153 pairs with the occasional 158. Heart of Wales however is single 153s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2022 ==

It's only short distance if operated as a shuttle to Whitland. As I mentioned a few posts up 197s could make sense in that case. Pembroke Dock to Swansea as an all-stations stopper however is well over two hours.

2 hours is nothing compared to them being used on Milford to Manchester which can be up to six hours !

 

[Techniquest]

The later 16.02 Cardiff - Fishguard was 153 329 + 153 312 today and I'm sure I've seen the same working twice in recent weeks also as a pair of 153s, so this does look like 153s are the standard choice for that route at the moment.

When I went to cover it in January, because it had a 153/9 I wanted on it (my last one at that) it was showing as triple 153s which in itself is unusual, but it actually left Cardiff with FOUR 153s!

 

[Dai Corner]

When I went to cover it in January, because it had a 153/9 I wanted on it (my last one at that) it was showing as triple 153s which in itself is unusual, but it actually left Cardiff with FOUR 153s!

Presumably to avoid a separate ECS movement? Were any locked OOU?

 

[Techniquest]

Presumably to avoid a separate ECS movement? Were any locked OOU?

No idea if truth be told, I didn't travel on it in the end as 153909 (which had been allocated to the service) didn't work it in the end. It didn't look like any of the 153s were locked out of use when I observed it loading, and like you say it might have saved some ECS movements with one or two getting dropped off in Swansea. I couldn't tell you sorry!

 

[Jez]

A quick look at Realtime Trains shows both the 0758 and 0900 departures from Carmarthen to Manchester as a pair of 153s today. Both of these will hit Cardiff at rush hour during their return workings from Manchester. Also 1357 Carmarthen to Manchester is showing as a 2 car 175 and 2 car 158 forming 4 carriages which must be incorrect as you cant have 158s coupled with 175s.

 

[craigybagel]

A quick look at Realtime Trains shows both the 0758 and 0900 departures from Carmarthen to Manchester as a pair of 153s today. Both of these will hit Cardiff at rush hour during their return workings from Manchester. Also 1357 Carmarthen to Manchester is showing as a 2 car 175 and 2 car 158 forming 4 carriages which must be incorrect as you cant have 158s coupled with 175s.

Just a 158 - there was a set swap at Cardiff from the 175 after it developed a fault.

 

[berneyarms]

A quick look at Realtime Trains shows both the 0758 and 0900 departures from Carmarthen to Manchester as a pair of 153s today. Both of these will hit Cardiff at rush hour during their return workings from Manchester. Also 1357 Carmarthen to Manchester is showing as a 2 car 175 and 2 car 158 forming 4 carriages which must be incorrect as you cant have 158s coupled with 175s.

The 0758 ex-Carmarthen (0702 ex-Milford Haven) swapped to a 3-car Class 175 at Cardiff.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The 0758 ex-Carmarthen (0702 ex-Milford Haven) swapped to a 3-car Class 175 at Cardiff.

Would be interesting to know if the 0900 got beyond Crewe, in my experience 153s would be 10+ mins late by that point and fail the regulation requirement to continue through to Manchester?

 

[Anonymous10]

Would be interesting to know if the 0900 got beyond Crewe, in my experience 153s would be 10+ mins late by that point and fail the regulation requirement to continue through to Manchester?

according to realtime trains it reached crewe 17 minutes late but was allowed to continue to Manchester arriving 13 minutes late. it is now running 20 minutes late and approaching pontypool and new in

 

[craigybagel]

Would be interesting to know if the 0900 got beyond Crewe, in my experience 153s would be 10+ mins late by that point and fail the regulation requirement to continue through to Manchester?

Not aware of any official "requirement" on punctuality to continue to Manchester, but in my experience it's normally 30 minutes or more at least before a termination at Crewe occurs. Even two153s could leave Crewe 10 late and still have an on-time departure from Manchester if they had a decent path.

 

[Jez]

A few weeks ago I was on a train which departed Crewe 10 mins late and still got to Manchester a minute early in the public timetable arrival time so there is plenty of padding especially between Stockport and Manchester. It was a 175 which helps.