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GWR Summer Saturday Pembroke Dock Trains

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hornbyfan99

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Anyone here remember the GWR Summer Saturday London Paddington- Pembroke Dock services?

Nothing said that it has been cut as such but it would be good if someone could shed some light on the service...


Cheers
 
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Wilts Wanderer

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Anyone here remember the GWR Summer Saturday London Paddington- Pembroke Dock services?

Nothing said that it has been cut as such but it would be good if someone could shed some light on the service...


Cheers

There will not be any through GWR services to Pembroke this year; the requirement for Swansea traincrew to re-learn the route west of Carmarthen and restrictions on cab-sharing on TfW services has conspired to make it impossible this year. Instead there are a couple of extra extensions to Carmarthen on Saturdays from late May until early September, with connections into TfW Pembroke branch trains.

There is definitely a desire for seasonal through trains to return at some point in the future; hopefully 2023 will see this return. It will be dependent on the ability to route learn though.
 

Watershed

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There will not be any through GWR services to Pembroke this year; the requirement for Swansea traincrew to re-learn the route west of Carmarthen and restrictions on cab-sharing on TfW services has conspired to make it impossible this year. Instead there are a couple of extra extensions to Carmarthen on Saturdays from late May until early September, with connections into TfW Pembroke branch trains.

There is definitely a desire for seasonal through trains to return at some point in the future; hopefully 2023 will see this return. It will be dependent on the ability to route learn though.
Goodness me, are TfW still persisting with that nonsense?
 

craigybagel

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Goodness me, are TfW still persisting with that nonsense?
AFAIK every TOC at one point banned route learners from other TOCs traveling in their cabs. Not sure I'd describe it as nonsense given the risks during a pandemic of two people sharing such a small space.

In any case however those restrictions have ended and drivers from other TOCs are now permitted in TfW cabs, subject to the usual restrictions.
 

Dai Corner

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AFAIK every TOC at one point banned route learners from other TOCs traveling in their cabs. Not sure I'd describe it as nonsense given the risks during a pandemic of two people sharing such a small space.

In any case however those restrictions have ended and drivers from other TOCs are now permitted in TfW cabs, subject to the usual restrictions.
TfW route conductors beyond Carmarthen? Or can't they spare the drivers?
 

Starmill

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Arguably an improved all-week service of extensions to Carmarthen would actually be more useful for passengers anyway. The downside of this is the question of whether TfW can provide increased capacity. It's possible they might be able to run four cars as far as Tenby and thena two car shuttle to Pembroke Dock.
 

craigybagel

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TfW route conductors beyond Carmarthen? Or can't they spare the drivers?
Not a hope. Even in the May timetable there will still not be a full restoration of the pre Covid service - arguably the most notable impact for that part of the world being the continued suspension of most of the Cardiff - Swansea Swanline service. Also, lots of train crew at Cardiff and Carmarthen need to undertake traction training this year. It would be madness to effectively lend staff to GWR under those circumstances.
 

Starmill

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Another alternative might be to use rail replacement buses between Tenby and Milford Haven via Pembroke Dock line stations Friday and Saturday, with trains turning back at Tenby to cater for the majority of the demand using fewer units. Trains between Haverfordwest and Milford Haven also don't seem to be particularly busy, even in summer.
 

Anonymous10

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TfW route conductors beyond Carmarthen? Or can't they spare the drivers?
Carmarthen are currently replacing trains to Pembroke dock and Fishguard at least once per day due to staffing this is public knowledge has been since December
 

Anonymous10

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Arguably an improved all-week service of extensions to Carmarthen would actually be more useful for passengers anyway. The downside of this is the question of whether TfW can provide increased capacity. It's possible they might be able to run four cars as far as Tenby and thena two car shuttle to Pembroke Dock.
4 car can run the entire route the platforms are long enough and would be easier to diagram one would think
 

Ridercross

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Being a regular visitor to Tenby, the need to change at Carmarthen is making the rail journey more difficult than before. Having come down on numerous occasions both by train and coach, this has seriously skewed the convenience factor more to National Express.

When I come down again at the end of this month, I can either catch one train into Birmingham and then a direct coach to Tenby, or catch three or four trains there. As the option with NX is considerably cheaper too, it's the NX tickets that have been booked.
 

Anonymous10

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Being a regular visitor to Tenby, the need to change at Carmarthen is making the rail journey more difficult than before. Having come down on numerous occasions both by train and coach, this has seriously skewed the convenience factor more to National Express.

When I come down again at the end of this month, I can either catch one train into Birmingham and then a direct coach to Tenby, or catch three or four trains there. As the option with NX is considerably cheaper too, it's the NX tickets that have been booked.
should change in may i hope it also makes us on the line feel very out the way 45 minutes waiting to go anywhere and its adding 1 connection and causing longer journeys
 

Starmill

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Being a regular visitor to Tenby, the need to change at Carmarthen is making the rail journey more difficult than before. Having come down on numerous occasions both by train and coach, this has seriously skewed the convenience factor more to National Express.

When I come down again at the end of this month, I can either catch one train into Birmingham and then a direct coach to Tenby, or catch three or four trains there. As the option with NX is considerably cheaper too, it's the NX tickets that have been booked.
The Monday - Saturday through services are on sale again starting 16th May, including the 1704 from Cardiff Central to Tenby (starts back at Manchester Piccadilly at 1331) and return from Tenby to Cardiff Central at 2010, plus the 0631 from Cardiff Central to Pembroke Dock. This also means that the connection from the 1248 London Paddington to Swansea is available at Swansea. Are they actually going to be running?

Downside to the 1704 from Cardiff Central is that it used to be very busy with people for Llanharan, Bridgend, Pyle and Port Talbot Parkway. Not a lot of elbow room for people to Carmarthen and beyond.
 
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hornbyfan99

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A thought, wouldn't it make more sense to run the service through to Fishguard Harbour instead of Pembroke Dock? Wouldn't it cater more demand...

I know the Pembroke Dock trains aren't exactly boat trains as the 'Docks' themselves are on the other side of the town. Fishguard on the other hand provides a very seamless connection for the ship to Rosslare, Ireland. Whilst I'm aware the through Boat Train from London Paddington was axed c2003, with the five car class 802s they could be split/coupled at Swansea instead of running a full 9/10 car set down to Fishguard.
 

Dai Corner

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A thought, wouldn't it make more sense to run the service through to Fishguard Harbour instead of Pembroke Dock? Wouldn't it cater more demand...

I know the Pembroke Dock trains aren't exactly boat trains as the 'Docks' themselves are on the other side of the town. Fishguard on the other hand provides a very seamless connection for the ship to Rosslare, Ireland. Whilst I'm aware the through Boat Train from London Paddington was axed c2003, with the five car class 802s they could be split/coupled at Swansea instead of running a full 9/10 car set down to Fishguard.
I think the main destination is Tenby rather than the ferries.
 

craigybagel

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A thought, wouldn't it make more sense to run the service through to Fishguard Harbour instead of Pembroke Dock? Wouldn't it cater more demand...

I know the Pembroke Dock trains aren't exactly boat trains as the 'Docks' themselves are on the other side of the town. Fishguard on the other hand provides a very seamless connection for the ship to Rosslare, Ireland. Whilst I'm aware the through Boat Train from London Paddington was axed c2003, with the five car class 802s they could be split/coupled at Swansea instead of running a full 9/10 car set down to Fishguard.

I think the main destination is Tenby rather than the ferries.
Indeed, and surely the demand for tourism to Tenby heavily outweighs the small numbers transferring to the ferry at Fishguard? It would also only work if the train actually connected into a ferry, and they only run twice a day (with one being in the middle of the night).
 

Anonymous10

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A thought, wouldn't it make more sense to run the service through to Fishguard Harbour instead of Pembroke Dock? Wouldn't it cater more demand...

I know the Pembroke Dock trains aren't exactly boat trains as the 'Docks' themselves are on the other side of the town. Fishguard on the other hand provides a very seamless connection for the ship to Rosslare, Ireland. Whilst I'm aware the through Boat Train from London Paddington was axed c2003, with the five car class 802s they could be split/coupled at Swansea instead of running a full 9/10 car set down to Fishguard.
tenby is massive holiday destination and always gets a large amount of passengers
 

Starmill

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The main destinations for tourists in West Wales is definitely Tenby as others have said. The main railhead for 'locals' is Haverfordwest.
 

james60059

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Trouble with Fishguard Harbour, the amount of people that travel for the ferry can fit on a single car Class 153 with plenty of room to spare, wouldn't be worth it to send a 5-car IET to the port. As someone who used to travel that way frequently pre-pandemic, whilst it's a nice idea certainly wouldn't be efficient. With the likes of Ryanair, the days of the Irish boat trains to Fishguard have well and truly been consigned to the history books
 

irish_rail

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Trouble with Fishguard Harbour, the amount of people that travel for the ferry can fit on a single car Class 153 with plenty of room to spare, wouldn't be worth it to send a 5-car IET to the port. As someone who used to travel that way frequently pre-pandemic, whilst it's a nice idea certainly wouldn't be efficient. With the likes of Ryanair, the days of the Irish boat trains to Fishguard have well and truly been consigned to the history books
I'm not so sure. People are more and more likely to make choices that are better for the planet and I can see a resurgence in boat train traffic (albeit not quite to the good old days). The way to promote it would be direct trains from London to Fishguard with decent connection onto Irish rail at Rosslare. This would entice the large south east Irish population, as well as Irish tourists London bound to use the boat and train via Fishguard. The whole having to change onto a 153 at Swansea is likely to put people off and just give up and take the easy but more polluting option of Ryanair. We need to make the journey "seemless" if the boats want to win back airline traffic.
 

Anonymous10

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I'm not so sure. People are more and more likely to make choices that are better for the planet and I can see a resurgence in boat train traffic (albeit not quite to the good old days). The way to promote it would be direct trains from London to Fishguard with decent connection onto Irish rail at Rosslare. This would entice the large south east Irish population, as well as Irish tourists London bound to use the boat and train via Fishguard. The whole having to change onto a 153 at Swansea is likely to put people off and just give up and take the easy but more polluting option of Ryanair. We need to make the journey "seemless" if the boats want to win back airline traffic.
thats if the boats want the traffic stena have previously changed boat times to decrease foot passenger volumes out of Fishguard
 

Techniquest

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In a changing world, where we all care about emissions etc, I think in the next few years they will have very little choice but to work closely with TfW and Avanti. More and more of us every day are making the decision to be more considerate of what we do and when. It won't happen overnight, or at least it is unlikely to, but there will eventually be a demand for sensible sailing times with a decent rail connection.

I must confess to being surprised it hasn't happened already, but then when you get the masses booking the silly price air fares then complaining when it's a lousy service or how much they spent on getting to the airport/on their 'holiday pint'/hotel to make sure they can be at the airport for 6am, well they will learn the hard way! I am a little bit biased, as I have direct trains to Holyhead available and Fishguard is just 2 trains away with an easy change in West Wales, so it is easy for me to get to/from Ireland by train and ferry. A little bit different if you're, say, in Newcastle with the Metro an easy option to the airport for a short flight to Dublin.

Give it 5 years, maybe even 10 years, but I can see there will be an enormous shift in attitudes. Both in the masses and in the transport providers.
 

craigybagel

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I'm not so sure. People are more and more likely to make choices that are better for the planet and I can see a resurgence in boat train traffic (albeit not quite to the good old days). The way to promote it would be direct trains from London to Fishguard with decent connection onto Irish rail at Rosslare. This would entice the large south east Irish population, as well as Irish tourists London bound to use the boat and train via Fishguard. The whole having to change onto a 153 at Swansea is likely to put people off and just give up and take the easy but more polluting option of Ryanair. We need to make the journey "seemless" if the boats want to win back airline traffic.
In a changing world, where we all care about emissions etc, I think in the next few years they will have very little choice but to work closely with TfW and Avanti. More and more of us every day are making the decision to be more considerate of what we do and when. It won't happen overnight, or at least it is unlikely to, but there will eventually be a demand for sensible sailing times with a decent rail connection.

I must confess to being surprised it hasn't happened already, but then when you get the masses booking the silly price air fares then complaining when it's a lousy service or how much they spent on getting to the airport/on their 'holiday pint'/hotel to make sure they can be at the airport for 6am, well they will learn the hard way! I am a little bit biased, as I have direct trains to Holyhead available and Fishguard is just 2 trains away with an easy change in West Wales, so it is easy for me to get to/from Ireland by train and ferry. A little bit different if you're, say, in Newcastle with the Metro an easy option to the airport for a short flight to Dublin.

Give it 5 years, maybe even 10 years, but I can see there will be an enormous shift in attitudes. Both in the masses and in the transport providers.
The problem is, there are very few journeys between cities in Ireland and the UK where Fishguard is a better option than via Holyhead, even when you take into account the fact Dublin Port isn't rail connected. Even if there is a big return of foot passengers using the ferry (something I'm already skeptical about) it's hard to see there being much benefit at Fishguard. Rosslare is just an awkward windswept corner of Ireland that isn't of much use to most of the island

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thats if the boats want the traffic stena have previously changed boat times to decrease foot passenger volumes out of Fishguard
The timetable change was a last throw of the dice to save the route. The previous times shadowed the Irish Ferries service from Pembroke, and unlike on the Central Corridor through Holyhead there just isn't enough freight to fill two ferries at the same time twice a day. Hopefully running at different times to Irish Ferries will develop a big enough market to sustain both ferries. The impact it had on Foot Passenger journeys was unfortunate, but the revenue foot passengers generate is a tiny fraction of that which comes from the vehicle decks.
 
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Jez

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Not a hope. Even in the May timetable there will still not be a full restoration of the pre Covid service - arguably the most notable impact for that part of the world being the continued suspension of most of the Cardiff - Swansea Swanline service. Also, lots of train crew at Cardiff and Carmarthen need to undertake traction training this year. It would be madness to effectively lend staff to GWR under those circumstances.
Is there any sign of the Swanline services being reinstated with the May timetable? Although to be fair most of the time the Swanline stations (aside from Pyle) arent very busy and dont make the already busy Manchester services that busier. And given the small time penalty of the Manchester services calling there every 2 hours it might make more sense to keep it as it is currently as it saves 2 units and 2 sets of train crew. It seems to work out quite well at the moment and swanline passengers now, by and large, get 175s which is an improvement on the 153s and 150s that were used before.

As for Pembroke Dock, its about time that was reinstated. Understand why GWR cant run any this summer but hopefully TFW can at least run some 3-4 cars on their services this summer.
 

Western 52

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I'd like to see a frequent Swanline service running maybe every 30 minutes. These stations serve areas with some significant population and there is untapped potential just waiting for a decent service. When Gowerton station was improved some years ago with more frequent trains it saw a huge increase in usage. Swanline should be the same. I guess though the best we can hope for will be reinstatement of the former two hour interval service.
 

anthony263

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I'd like to see a frequent Swanline service running maybe every 30 minutes. These stations serve areas with some significant population and there is untapped potential just waiting for a decent service. When Gowerton station was improved some years ago with more frequent trains it saw a huge increase in usage. Swanline should be the same. I guess though the best we can hope for will be reinstatement of the former two hour interval service.
The poor service is the reason it’s so underused. Pre.covid Pyle numbers increased with the extra trains . A full hourly swanline would work and help take pressure off other services
 
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