GWR short train lengths

[Clarence Yard]

As I stated above, Graffiti isn’t the issue that is stopping the units. Tagging units on Hitachi depots isn’t an issue either.

 

[DelW]

While GWR is short forming and cancelling services all over its network, a fleet of GWR-liveried, refurbished, four coach, AC- DC- and diesel-powered units is rotting away in storage, unused since they were rebuilt ... how useful might they have been in eliminating some of the current woes?

 

[Railcar]

This year, I decided not to go to Torquay, as I have done for the past four or five years. The trains were the main reason for not going. Despite booking seats weeks in advance, these were the problems with GWR
1. A train at paddington had been 'turned around' so that the seat I had booked was not where it should be i.e. with the window view facing forward.
2. On several of the returns, trains were delayed by an hour or so at the connection at Newton Abbot, with packed 5-car sets turning up and no point in trying to find my 'booked' seat.

The hotel, and the traders in Torbay, have lost my custom due to GWR.

 

[irish_rail]

That's interesting. We seem to see as many 800/3's going to Penzance as 802/1's though I`m guessing it isn't necessarily specific to either sub-class.

This is a very recent development , ie past couple of weeks. From personal experience it seems the 800/3s are the ones affected, and so there's now several of them that in theory shouldn't be used on the Wofe, but by no means the whole fleet. But it will no doubt be further headaches for the fleet people. Could be why there has been more 10 cars to the south west in past week or two , and very few 9 cars.

 

[Class15]

While GWR is short forming and cancelling services all over its network, a fleet of GWR-liveried, refurbished, four coach, AC- DC- and diesel-powered units is rotting away in storage, unused since they were rebuilt ... how useful might they have been in eliminating some of the current woes?

Indeed. What a waste.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

A case then for bringing back the much missed class 165/166 for London Paddington to Oxford services. The IET trains that are freed up from doing the Paddington to Oxford route could be used to lengthen other longer distance services

Bring back two/three carriage 90mph trains with 2+3 seating, themselves with chronic availability issues, in place of five/nine carriage 125mph trains with 2+2 seating?

It's a view, I guess...

 

[jimm]

I too get annoyed with the GWR short formations.

From Reading:

To Oxford can be a nine car IET, or a five car. It is pot luck as to whether the Oxford only train you get will be five, or nine cars.

To Worcester/Hereford - Always a five car unit, which is utter madness. Not only is this five car set expected to carry all the usual London/Reading to Oxford traffic, but the extra people going to Worcester/Hereford.

I now actively avoid any train listed as Worcester/Hereford as I know it will be five cars and heavily overcrowded.

XC are just as bad. Running four/five car sets from Bournemouth all the way through to Manchester.

I had reservations about five car sets even before they entered service, questioning why more nine unit sets weren't procured for use on popular and busy routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2023 ==


I miss the Turbos on mainline operation in the Thames Valley. A decent unit with good capacity. At least you weren't standing in a stuffy vestibule if the train was busy.

Luckily the 23:05 from Oxford (on weekdays) is still a class 165/166 operated service. Stopping only at Didcot on the way to Reading.

A case then for bringing back the much missed class 165/166 for London Paddington to Oxford services. The IET trains that are freed up from doing the Paddington to Oxford route could be used to lengthen other longer distance services, such as less frequently served Worcester and Hereford.

It's not pot luck - GWR has a daily train plan, so as long as it gets the sets each morning that Hitachi is supposed to provide, there are a number of 9-car workings to/from Oxford and to/from Worcester and Hereford through the course of the day. Realtimetrains makes it perfectly easy these days to find out what formation is on which service and which services are regularly booked for a 9-car set. And a quick skim just now suggests that every service both ways along the Cotswold Line that should have had a 9-car set yesterday - and so far today - has been operated by one.

The Dapartment for Transport decided what mis of IETs/Azumas to order, not the rail industry.

You must be about the only person on the planet that thinks Turbos are what is needed on mainline services in the Thames Valley. They were too small for many of the services they worked more than 20 years ago and I spent lots of time over the years wedged into narrow seats or playing sardines in stuffy vestibules - because the air conditioning on 166s had failed yet again - or being blasted by a howling gale through the hopper windows. Never mind that 90mph trains are not compatible with the current timetable on the main lines between Paddington, Reading and Didcot.

I too have seen nine car units full and standing. Indeed, as was the nine car unit on my last visit during Saturday last week.

Which makes the case of running five car units as utter lunacy, when even nine car units are usually full and standing.

All trains should be at least nine cars to major destinations such as Oxford, Worcester, Bristol, Swansea, Cardiff, Exeter and Plymouth.

Especially at busy times and during the increasingly busy weekends.

I also do not understand why many 'fast' services to Oxford now have to stop at Didcot - and in some cases Radley - when this wasn't the case previously. This also adds to the issue of an already overcrowded train coming from Reading.

Extra Didcot calls are linked to the recent changes in calling patterns on main line services to/from places west of Didcot (and Oxford/Cotswold Sunday services have called there for a long time anyway) - and serving Radley on Sundays saves the expense of providing a Turbo and drivers for the shuttles that day, as per DfT orders to cut costs. Would not be happening if 387-operated stopping services could run to Oxford as they were meant to.

 

[heathrowrail]

Pigs will raise their pantographs and run under the GWEP wires before Hitachi build more trains for the GWR trainfleet I suspect.

I agree. I mean the common sense approach would be to make more sense 9 cars and reduce the number of 5 cars but that will take 10 years to happen and by the time it does Hitachi will no longer be producing that variant and it won't be feasible to built extra carriages aka repeat of the Voyagers.

 

[FGW_DID]

While GWR is short forming and cancelling services all over its network, a fleet of GWR-liveried, refurbished, four coach, AC- DC- and diesel-powered units is rotting away in storage, unused since they were rebuilt ... how useful might they have been in eliminating some of the current woes?

Indeed. What a waste.

Not very useful at all since there were no drivers trained on them!

Love this forum, whilst we had the 769s they were the worst thing since sliced bread, a waste of time & money that would never work, money that would have been better spent on a new build fleet.

Now they’re being touted as the saviour of the railway!

 

[Class15]

Not very useful at all since there were no drivers trained on them!

Love this forum, whilst we had the 769s they were the worst thing since sliced bread, a waste of time & money that would never work, money that would have been better spent on a new build fleet.

Now they’re being touted as the saviour of the railway!

I never criticised the 769s; I don’t know about others.

 

[DelW]

Not very useful at all since there were no drivers trained on them!

Well, any hypothetical additional stock is likely to need drivers to be trained, since there appear to be no additional vehicles available of GWR's current traction.

Love this forum, whilst we had the 769s they were the worst thing since sliced bread, a waste of time & money that would never work, money that would have been better spent on a new build fleet.

Not from me, I was looking forward to them arriving on the North Downs, and eliminating some of the unnecessary diesel running over third rail tracks. As it turned out, the money spent on them was entirely wasted anyway.

 

[Benjwri]

Not from me, I was looking forward to them arriving on the North Downs, and eliminating some of the unnecessary diesel running over third rail tracks.

Except when they wouldn’t be running, because they’d broken down, which judging from the test runs would be quite a lot. They were never going to be effective and were just a rushed solution when the DfT cut the wiring back, meaning turbos had to be retained in Reading, and therefore something else was needed so the 153s could go.

 

[DelW]

Except when they wouldn’t be running, because they’d broken down, which judging from the test runs would be quite a lot. They were never going to be effective and were just a rushed solution when the DfT cut the wiring back, meaning turbos had to be retained in Reading, and therefore something else was needed so the 153s could go.

TfW and Northern did seem to get the reliability of theirs to improve with time, but we'll never know how well (or not) GWR's would have done. But we do know that the argument that they weren't needed because GWR had enough rolling stock without them has been thoroughly debunked by the present situation.

 

[jayah]

Sadly I’m not sure any government is going to care about the railway.

That is true in all of the public sector. There are no customers, just costs.

 

[REVUpminster]

This is a very recent development , ie past couple of weeks. From personal experience it seems the 800/3s are the ones affected, and so there's now several of them that in theory shouldn't be used on the Wofe, but by no means the whole fleet. But it will no doubt be further headaches for the fleet people. Could be why there has been more 10 cars to the south west in past week or two , and very few 9 cars.

8003s are used once of twice weekly on the Paddington Paignton 0703; I suppose because it does not have to go over the Dainton Hills.

 

[FGW_DID]

TfW and Northern did seem to get the reliability of theirs to improve with time, but we'll never know how well (or not) GWR's would have done. But we do know that the argument that they weren't needed because GWR had enough rolling stock without them has been thoroughly debunked by the present situation.

But on paper, GWR would have enough stock. There is never going to be more working Diagrams than there is rolling stock. That’s not how it works.

 

[dciuk]

8003s are used once of twice weekly on the Paddington Paignton 0703; I suppose because it does not have to go over the Dainton Hills.

Why would a GWR 8003 have a problem with the Dainton Hills? Do they not have the same power as a GWR class 802?

 

[DelW]

But on paper, GWR would have enough stock. There is never going to be more working Diagrams than there is rolling stock. That’s not how it works.

Stock on paper doesn't carry passengers

But I defer to your much better knowledge (than mine) of GWR fleet matters - I realise that you're at the sharp end of all this!

 

[Energy]

TfW and Northern did seem to get the reliability of theirs to improve with time, but we'll never know how well (or not) GWR's would have done. But we do know that the argument that they weren't needed because GWR had enough rolling stock without them has been thoroughly debunked by the present situation.

769 unavailability was solved in the west by the short HST sets. GWR needed to loose stock at the time (high inflation etc.) so lost the 769s with spare 80Xs intended to take over short HST operations. Increased usage of the 80Xs (though still not that high) has caused the recent short forming.

GWRs shortforming on 80Xs wouldn't be as bad if Hitachi could get the sets out, and the liability exceptions in the 800 contract don't help.

 

[oglord]

Was 1B28 Paddington to Carmarthen today really 15 cars? (800 019 + 800 033 + 800 020). By the time it got to Newport it was only 10, with the leading unit's nose cone open as if something had been detached (at Parkway?)

 

[JN114]

Was 1B28 Paddington to Carmarthen today really 15 cars? (800 019 + 800 033 + 800 020). By the time it got to Newport it was only 10, with the leading unit's nose cone open as if something had been detached (at Parkway?)

No. A 15 car wouldn’t fit in any platform enroute, including the termini.

It’s been said time and again but take open data feeds with a tablespoon of salt - they don’t handle set swaps (in this case between a 5 and a 10) at all well.

 

[oglord]

No. A 15 car wouldn’t fit in any platform enroute, including the termini.

It’s been said time and again but take open data feeds with a tablespoon of salt - they don’t handle set swaps (in this case between a 5 and a 10) at all well.

Well, I assumed not, until I saw the nose cone open!

 

[43096]

Personally I'd worry less about graffiti and more about running the correct number of carriages. A bit of paint on the outside brightening up the set is really not the end of the world. Concentrate on stopping it happening in the first place with better security at depots then clean up the existing sets when time allows.

Graffiti is something that needs to be controlled very, very quickly or it soon becomes an epidemic - Belgium and Slovenia being good examples of what can happen. There was a report a few weeks back of an 80x running around for several days with Nazi symbols on it - that really is not acceptable. Something like that should be out of service immediately to get it cleaned.

 

[irish_rail]

Graffiti is something that needs to be controlled very, very quickly or it soon becomes an epidemic - Belgium and Slovenia being good examples of what can happen. There was a report a few weeks back of an 80x running around for several days with Nazi symbols on it - that really is not acceptable. Something like that should be out of service immediately to get it cleaned.

I agree when it is offensive , it must be gone and fast.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==

Why would a GWR 8003 have a problem with the Dainton Hills? Do they not have the same power as a GWR class 802?

They do and are effectively used as a common fleet with the 802/1s. The issue with several 800/3s at present is they have been fitted with a new type of DSD pedal that is neither acceptable to Aslef or Gwr drivers. As an interim measure, Gwr and Hitachi have agreed to keep the sets with the new DSDs fitted are kept off the longer runs to prevent drivers having to suffer them for say 3hrs 15 between London and Plymouth. In theory the sets with the modified DSDs should be kept on the services like Bristol where driver is only driving for about 1hr 40. The issue is around the amount of force required to keep the DSD pedal down (it really is a very bad design, and tiring to drive over long periods). I've had one from London to Plymouth and felt like I'd cycled 100 miles when I got out of the cab!

 

[Master29]

This is a very recent development , ie past couple of weeks. From personal experience it seems the 800/3s are the ones affected, and so there's now several of them that in theory shouldn't be used on the Wofe, but by no means the whole fleet. But it will no doubt be further headaches for the fleet people. Could be why there has been more 10 cars to the south west in past week or two , and very few 9 cars.

There have indeed been a few this weekend I've noticed. I suppose the irony here is that they were never meant to when ordered.

 

[Parham Wood]

I agree when it is offensive , it must be gone and fast.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==


They do and are effectively used as a common fleet with the 802/1s. The issue with several 800/3s at present is they have been fitted with a new type of DSD pedal that is neither acceptable to Aslef or Gwr drivers. As an interim measure, Gwr and Hitachi have agreed to keep the sets with the new DSDs fitted are kept off the longer runs to prevent drivers having to suffer them for say 3hrs 15 between London and Plymouth. In theory the sets with the modified DSDs should be kept on the services like Bristol where driver is only driving for about 1hr 40. The issue is around the amount of force required to keep the DSD pedal down (it really is a very bad design, and tiring to drive over long periods). I've had one from London to Plymouth and felt like I'd cycled 100 miles when I got out of the cab!

Surely regarding the pedal they would have installed a test one on one unit only. Indeed one wonders who tested the design and thought it acceptable.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Graffiti is something that needs to be controlled very, very quickly or it soon becomes an epidemic - Belgium and Slovenia being good examples of what can happen. There was a report a few weeks back of an 80x running around for several days with Nazi symbols on it - that really is not acceptable. Something like that should be out of service immediately to get it cleaned.

I believe it was pulled for cleaning but they had been put on with something that couldn’t be shifted straight away so it was put back in traffic (because of shortages) until they could get some shed time and something that could remove it.

Apparently GWR were not at all pleased to find out that it had been put back into traffic without the symbols being removed.

Occasionally the taggers try something new than the usual spray paint. But something like that painted on a unit should result in the unit being stopped until it is removed, irrespective of the Hitachi availability situation.

 

[Anonymous10]

Graffiti is something that needs to be controlled very, very quickly or it soon becomes an epidemic - Belgium and Slovenia being good examples of what can happen. There was a report a few weeks back of an 80x running around for several days with Nazi symbols on it - that really is not acceptable. Something like that should be out of service immediately to get it cleaned.

I agree swr had several trains running with windows taped over with hazard tape which isn't acceptable either imo. They were also running trains with tags (graffiti) on which to me is less serious.

 

[Mark J]

It's not pot luck - GWR has a daily train plan, so as long as it gets the sets each morning that Hitachi is supposed to provide, there are a number of 9-car workings to/from Oxford and to/from Worcester and Hereford through the course of the day. Realtimetrains makes it perfectly easy these days to find out what formation is on which service and which services are regularly booked for a 9-car set. And a quick skim just now suggests that every service both ways along the Cotswold Line that should have had a 9-car set yesterday - and so far today - has been operated by one.

The Dapartment for Transport decided what mis of IETs/Azumas to order, not the rail industry.

You must be about the only person on the planet that thinks Turbos are what is needed on mainline services in the Thames Valley. They were too small for many of the services they worked more than 20 years ago and I spent lots of time over the years wedged into narrow seats or playing sardines in stuffy vestibules - because the air conditioning on 166s had failed yet again - or being blasted by a howling gale through the hopper windows. Never mind that 90mph trains are not compatible with the current timetable on the main lines between Paddington, Reading and Didcot.


Extra Didcot calls are linked to the recent changes in calling patterns on main line services to/from places west of Didcot (and Oxford/Cotswold Sunday services have called there for a long time anyway) - and serving Radley on Sundays saves the expense of providing a Turbo and drivers for the shuttles that day, as per DfT orders to cut costs. Would not be happening if 387-operated stopping services could run to Oxford as they were meant to.

The 21:30 that arrived at Oxford from Great Malvern was a five car set.

So a five car set must of gone that way earlier on.

 

[FGW_DID]

Stock on paper doesn't carry passengers

But very true! You do of course need the stock, you do require, to be serviceable & available, something which unfortunately has fallen short on numerous occasions recently.