GWR short train lengths

[TheBigD]

On LNER with the buffets a 10 car actually has less capacity than a 9 car.

Not since LNER removed 21 seats and installed extra luggage stacks on the 9 car sets.

5 + 5 car LNER Azuma has 604 seats (96/508).
9 car Azuma has 590 seats (100/490).

 

[43172]

Assuming that there isn't an increase in capacity by this time next year, would it be possible to consider the idea of making some of the busiest services pick up/set down only at some stations? So for example at Reading, try and persuade those who travel between London and Reading only onto Class 345 operated services.

 

[Snow1964]

Assuming that there isn't an increase in capacity by this time next year, would it be possible to consider the idea of making some of the busiest services pick up/set down only at some stations? So for example at Reading, try and persuade those who travel between London and Reading only onto Class 345 operated services.

Not totally unreasonable, used to do similar thing out of Waterloo by getting some trains to skip Woking and do first stop Brookwood or Farnborough. Basic idea was those for Woking had plenty of choice and didn't need to be on busiest services.

Would be fairly easy to skip Reading on the busiest services in similar way, tends to be better than the pick up or set down only except for those using it from quieter direction. Unless you position a member of staff by every doorway, regulars will ignore the pick up / set down so it doesn't 100% work.

Its not possible to manage the trains season ticket holders use, so have to have blunt approach

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Assuming that there isn't an increase in capacity by this time next year, would it be possible to consider the idea of making some of the busiest services pick up/set down only at some stations? So for example at Reading, try and persuade those who travel between London and Reading only onto Class 345 operated services.

West of England services already are pick up only at Reading in the down direction at busiest times.

 

[JonathanH]

So for example at Reading, try and persuade those who travel between London and Reading only onto Class 345 operated services.

Seriously? Even if that was feasible, it just adds to overcrowding on those services at inner stations. There are only two Elizabeth Line services to Reading each hour off peak. Passengers board at Reading going west as well.

Clearly scope to make the busiest trains pick up only at Reading, but only so many.

 

[timothyw9]

Assuming that there isn't an increase in capacity by this time next year, would it be possible to consider the idea of making some of the busiest services pick up/set down only at some stations? So for example at Reading, try and persuade those who travel between London and Reading only onto Class 345 operated services.

That sounds like a ridiculous idea, Reading - London non-stop is 20-25 minutes, Reading-London on the Elizabeth Line is nearly an hour stopping everywhere.

 

[Ashley Hill]

West of England services already are pick up only at Reading in the down direction at busiest times.

And the regulars still know the train stops there,you only have to watch 20 or 30 of them alighting at Reading!

 

[Clarence Yard]

The solution is to get the units out of Hitachi that they are supposed to deliver and that GWR are paying for.

Today 80 units were supposed to be provided but only 74 were supplied and some of them were in the wrong place for start of service. Without going deep into the contract and the exclusions Hitachi can apply (bent sets, wrongly delivered sets, etc), the result was a shortage at the London end and the 387 solution was applied to an Oxford circuit to get GWR at least one extra set for crucial longer distance diagrams.

So, Control have their work cut out again to not only try to get things right today but also to get them in the right place tonight to help prevent a repeat tomorrow. Not helped by the odd incident of course, such as 800005 smacking into a tree today in West Wales.

 

[Annetts key]

The issue with coupling is because ETCS along the GWML was dropped at some point in design or production, so GWR ATP had to be fitted onto the 80X at a late stage, and unfortunately that causes issues with the systems interfacing when coupling.

Unless it’s a poor design or implementation (okay, of course it’s likely to be both), the ATP should not be a problem. The ATP needs to know which train formation is in use. As this affects the way the ATP supervises the operation of the train (ATP needs to know the breaking performance as well as the train length). But as there are ONLY two normal configurations (five car or ten car), this SHOULD not be difficult.

ATP is not required to be in full supervision mode during shunting anyway. Hence it should not affect coupling or uncoupling. After this operation, if the Hitachi system was designed well, it “should” take less than a minute for the driver to configure the ATP system.

Maybe a driver can tell us how long it actually takes?

 

[Anonymous10]

The solution is to get the units out of Hitachi that they are supposed to deliver and that GWR are paying for.

Today 80 units were supposed to be provided but only 74 were supplied and some of them were in the wrong place for start of service. Without going deep into the contract and the exclusions Hitachi can apply (bent sets, wrongly delivered sets, etc), the result was a shortage at the London end and the 387 solution was applied to an Oxford circuit to get GWR at least one extra set for crucial longer distance diagrams.

So, Control have their work cut out again to not only try to get things right today but also to get them in the right place tonight to help prevent a repeat tomorrow. Not helped by the odd incident of course, such as 800005 smacking into a tree today in West Wales.

I knew a tree went down didn't know a unit hit one. Is it likely to be out service long?

 

[800301]

Unless it’s a poor design or implementation (okay, of course it’s likely to be both), the ATP should not be a problem. The ATP needs to know which train formation is in use. As this affects the way the ATP supervises the operation of the train (ATP needs to know the breaking performance as well as the train length). But as there are ONLY two normal configurations (five car or ten car), this SHOULD not be difficult.

ATP is not required to be in full supervision mode during shunting anyway. Hence it should not affect coupling or uncoupling. After this operation, if the Hitachi system was designed well, it “should” take less than a minute for the driver to configure the ATP system.

Maybe a driver can tell us how long it actually takes?

I’m unaware of what issues there with coupling as I’ve not had any issues, it takes about a min maybe a bit longer for the TMS to reconfigure, ATP set up in the leading cab is no different to if you were in a fixed unit other than changing the formation from 5 to 10 but that’s part of the set up process

 

[Krokodil]

The use of short 5-car trains is treated here as if some sort of novelty. In fact my experience of GWR has been shortened formations right from day 1

Indeed, I remember the jokes at the expense of the advertising campaign: "Five-vice-ten stand in a vestibule"

I do wonder if the 9car should be increased to 10car

Can't be done, 80x units can only be formed of odd numbers of vehicles.

Assuming that there isn't an increase in capacity by this time next year, would it be possible to consider the idea of making some of the busiest services pick up/set down only at some stations? So for example at Reading, try and persuade those who travel between London and Reading only onto Class 345 operated services.

Given that one of the trains was still so full departing Reading that it left people behind there, making it pick up only won't be much help.

 

[Anonymous10]

Indeed, I remember the jokes at the expense of the advertising campaign: "Five-vice-ten stand in a vestibule"


Can't be done, 80x units can only be formed of odd numbers of vehicles.


Given that one of the trains was still so full departing Reading that it left people behind there, making it pick up only won't be much help.

Why do they need to have an odd number of vehicles?

 

[Master29]

West of England services already are pick up only at Reading in the down direction at busiest times.

Yeah, and GWR police that one well....Not.

That sounds like a ridiculous idea, Reading - London non-stop is 20-25 minutes, Reading-London on the Elizabeth Line is nearly an hour stopping everywhere.

What do you suggest then? Getting on already overcrowded trains from Reading? The East Coast doesn't have a Reading issue.

And the regulars still know the train stops there,you only have to watch 20 or 30 of them alighting at Reading!

Absolutely. GWR even announce it to passengers on the train before they reach Reading. GWR never bother with this.

 

[Essexman]

I often used to use the 12:03 or 13:03 to get to Torquay changing at Abbot and always found the Penzance to be a particular nightmare. I aim for the fairly new 14:36 direct nowadays which is an absolute godsend. Okay it gets you there a bit later but just start your holiday onboard with a couple of beers. Perfect!!

I regularly make the same journey and avoid Penzance trains.
I use the direct trains if possible but there's a long gap from 9.37 to 14.36.
I have used Exeter terminators but they are now often five car and busy.
Hence I regularly catch a Bristol train, which aren't so busy and change to the 12.45 from Bristol Temple Meads (Edinburgh - Plymouth), which is still an HST. I doesn't take much longer than the direct route and generally there's more space.

I've noticed that 5 cars have been appearing on Paignton trains this week which is unusual.
Last Sunday I travelled to London on a 9 car which was still very busy.
Hoping the morning train tomorrow is 9 not 5.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Why do they need to have an odd number of vehicles?

Electrical pairing, I’m told. So, if you are buying Hitachi 80x, they come in 5, 7 or 9 car variants only.

Even buying extra cars is now problematic - apart from the cost, Hitachi are hinting at certain obsolescence factors which means they couldn’t now do a like for like insert. For another company, I’m on the case on that one at the moment.

In the medium term, the solution to putting more 802 back on the core routes is to sub them out of the Cardiff-Penzance workings by 158 units surplus from elsewhere. But that means the DfT playing ball and hopefully not allocating them elsewhere.

 

[dk1]

I regularly make the same journey and avoid Penzance trains.
I use the direct trains if possible but there's a long gap from 9.37 to 14.36.
I have used Exeter terminators but they are now often five car and busy.
Hence I regularly catch a Bristol train, which aren't so busy and change to the 12.45 from Bristol Temple Meads (Edinburgh - Plymouth), which is still an HST. I doesn't take much longer than the direct route and generally there's more space.

I've noticed that 5 cars have been appearing on Paignton trains this week which is unusual.
Last Sunday I travelled to London on a 9 car which was still very busy.
Hoping the morning train tomorrow is 9 not 5.

Oh, luckily the 14:36 has always been 9 when I’ve used it. Another good move is the 10:14 XC Manchester off Paignton changing Temple Meads for Paddington.

 

[Anonymous10]

Electrical pairing, I’m told. So, if you are buying Hitachi 80x, they come in 5, 7 or 9 car variants only.

Even buying extra cars is now problematic - apart from the cost, Hitachi are hinting at certain obsolescence factors which means they couldn’t now do a like for like insert. For another company, I’m on the case on that one at the moment.

In the medium term, the solution to putting more 802 back on the core routes is to sub them out of the Cardiff-Penzance workings by 158 units surplus from elsewhere. But that means the DfT playing ball and hopefully not allocating them elsewhere.

I've also seen rumours about the class 175s going to gwr so maybe that's the short term plan?

 

[Horizon22]

About 20 units (800/802) are not in service today (although most wouldn’t be running anyway). It’s got so bad buses have been ordered between Didcot - Oxford.

 

[Pete_uk]

Hitachi need a kick up the rear.

This class 800 project isn't faring very well, is it.

 

[Falcon1200]

The use of short 5-car trains is treated here as if some sort of novelty. In fact my experience of GWR has been shortened formations right from day 1 when they could; my first ever experience of the 800s was such, Cardiff to London, and likewise has continued ever since, from long before Covid, various cracks, passenger loss, and whatever.

The logic of ordering 5-car sets was presumably to allow through services to places which could not justify a full length train, Carmarthen being a (recent) example. But it was inevitable from Day 1 that trains needing more capacity would end up with a 5-car.

 

[Annetts key]

In the medium term, the solution to putting more 802 back on the core routes is to sub them out of the Cardiff-Penzance workings by 158 units surplus from elsewhere. But that means the DfT playing ball and hopefully not allocating them elsewhere.

The trouble is, although 158s are fairly nice. Some of the windows leak when it’s raining. I got a wet arm earlier this week, as I leaned against the window and got a very wet shirt sleeve in return. And unless a lot are found, two car formations will run full and standing for some scheduled services.

And 158s are fairly old themselves.

Thanks to a combination of government micromanaging and a failure to properly invest in West Country railways, both lack of OLE and no new rolling stock apart from the 80X, the service will continue to be poor. And likely not get any better until after whenever new trains are ordered and delivered at some point in future.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I've also seen rumours about the class 175s going to gwr so maybe that's the short term plan?

There have been rumours of them going just about everywhere. Nobody that has any knowledge of their “ways” wants anything to do with them and it would cost a fortune in train crew training for GWR to take them. Wouldn’t surprise me if the DfT mandated someone to take them though!

Just a word about unit shortages - if you bend them, Hitachi aren’t liable for any shortfall, neither are Hitachi liable if you don’t get them back to the right depot at the right time.

The 5 car order of 800 units was because the late Stuart Baker devised a timetable that had splitting and joining going on everywhere. He also got the number of sets wrong, having completely underestimated passenger demand at various locations, which is why the 802 9 car order was as high as it was. It saved the DfT from major embarrassment.

The IET timetable and unit workings that the late Roger Watkins and I devised for the GWR December 2018 scheme had very little 5 car working from London on the key routes and, up to COVID, that largely stuck but the move to put the 802 5 car fleet on the Penzance-Cardiff corridor has stretched the fleet. Together with the persistent lack of availability from Hitachi and it is a constant battle at GWR to match resources with demand.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The trouble is, although 158s are fairly nice. Some of the windows leak when it’s raining. I got a wet arm earlier this week, as I leaned against the window and got a very wet shirt sleeve in return.

I understand the window problem is known about and being looked at. When the seals leak water has occasionally found its way to the sockets below which is why some are isolated.

 

[Benjwri]

I realise that today has been a terrible day for GWR, but honestly how long can this mess carry on? Obviously what happened at Oxford and all the short forming today, but it has also been a mess in Bristol. Apparently Stoke Gifford released a 80X with no working track circuit actuators, and GWR taxied another driver for 3 hours to Bristol Parkway, only to realise they didn't sign to Paddington via Bath. To top it all off my train home from Cardiff this evening was cancelled because it 'ran out of fuel', which is I think the first time I've ever seen that excuse

 

[Horizon22]

I realise that today has been a terrible day for GWR, but honestly how long can this mess carry on? Obviously what happened at Oxford and all the short forming today, but it has also been a mess in Bristol. Apparently Stoke Gifford released a 80X with no working track circuit actuators, and GWR taxied another driver for 3 hours to Bristol Parkway, only to realise they didn't sign to Paddington via Bath. To top it all off my train home from Cardiff this evening was cancelled because it 'ran out of fuel', which is I think the first time I've ever seen that excuse

The issue is GWR only has so much power; the way that the (utterly mad) IET contract works with Hitachi is they have a lot of say over things, many of which are not in the slightest passenger-friendly. This comes particularly to a head on Saturday & Sunday - with the latter also impacted by GWR's Sunday overtime situation - as they simply aren't flexible enough to cope with the growth of leisure travel.

 

[Mark J]

It looks from journeycheck that an entire Oxford diagram, to and from Didcot, is 8-car 387 vice 9-car IET today although not all of them appear to have run.

08:20 London Paddington to Oxford due 09:15 will be terminated at Didcot Parkway.
10:00 Oxford to London Paddington due 10:54 will be started from Didcot Parkway.
11:22 London Paddington to Oxford due 12:16 will be terminated at Didcot Parkway.
13:00 Oxford to London Paddington due 13:55 will be started from Didcot Parkway.
14:22 London Paddington to Oxford due 15:16 will be terminated at Didcot Parkway.
16:00 Oxford to London Paddington due 16:52 will be started from Didcot Parkway.
17:22 London Paddington to Oxford due 18:16 will be terminated at Didcot Parkway.
19:00 Oxford to London Paddington due 19:54 will be started from Didcot Parkway.
20:22 London Paddington to Oxford due 21:21 will be terminated at Didcot Parkway.
22:00 Oxford to London Paddington due 23:09 will be started from Didcot Parkway.

Regarding the 22:00, what a lame excuse given. I've never encountered this reason before.

 

[Krokodil]

Regarding the 22:00, what a lame excuse given. I've never encountered this reason before.

Gets used so much around here that you wonder when "usual" should be redefined.

 

[irish_rail]

Other issues now include certain 9 car sets are effectively "banned" from the longer runs, ie London to Penzance , due to a new style of DSD pedal fitted that has been lets just say "unpopular" amongst drivers.

 

[Anonymous10]

I realise that today has been a terrible day for GWR, but honestly how long can this mess carry on? Obviously what happened at Oxford and all the short forming today, but it has also been a mess in Bristol. Apparently Stoke Gifford released a 80X with no working track circuit actuators, and GWR taxied another driver for 3 hours to Bristol Parkway, only to realise they didn't sign to Paddington via Bath. To top it all off my train home from Cardiff this evening was cancelled because it 'ran out of fuel', which is I think the first time I've ever seen that excuse

What train was cancelled due to it running out of fuel? This happened to a 175 with tfw a few weeks / months ago