GWR short train lengths

[Snow1964]

The issue is GWR only has so much power; the way that the (utterly mad) IET contract works with Hitachi is they have a lot of say over things, many of which are not in the slightest passenger-friendly. This comes particularly to a head on Saturday & Sunday - with the latter also impacted by GWR's Sunday overtime situation - as they simply aren't flexible enough to cope with the growth of leisure travel.

The problem is partly that GWR have to jump through many hoops to be in a position to say, we have done conditions A, B, C, D & E as required by the contract, therefore we expect 80 (whatever the number is) fully working trains tomorrow morning.

The reality is if your legal team doesn't support the operational team, telling them exactly what they need to do, then can't fully enforce the contract.

The way contract is written (from what I have heard, as never seen it), would really need a batch of lawyers at the depot each morning with their micrometers and cameras finding a fault and saying, to Hitachi, no that train isn't good enough, supply us now with another. It's not good enough to keep saying missed contract amount again today, then do nothing heavy handed about it.

What is often forgotten when people moan, they forget that contracts are 2 way street, have to meet your requirements if want other side to meet theirs as well. If both sides let things slip then the contract becomes seen a vague aspiration or loose target, not the minimum standard that it is supposed to be.

 

[Anonymous10]

Regarding the 22:00, what a lame excuse given. I've never encountered this reason before.

This is a usually on the tfw network or resource availability, it's sad to see the problem becoming so bad on the gwr network though

 

[Benjwri]

What train was cancelled due to it running out of fuel? This happened to a 175 with tfw a few weeks / months ago

1F20, cancelled at Bristol Temple Meads because it wouldn't have enough fuel to reach Cardiff.

 

[Anonymous10]

1F20, cancelled at Bristol Temple Meads because it wouldn't have enough fuel to reach Cardiff.

One better then tfw then when they cancelled due to lack of fuel the 175 physically ran out of fuel in Bridgend blocking the south Wales main line.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The problem is partly that GWR have to jump through many hoops to be in a position to say, we have done conditions A, B, C, D & E as required by the contract, therefore we expect 80 (whatever the number is) fully working trains tomorrow morning.

The reality is if your legal team doesn't support the operational team, telling them exactly what they need to do, then can't fully enforce the contract.

The way contract is written (from what I have heard, as never seen it), would really need a batch of lawyers at the depot each morning with their micrometers and cameras finding a fault and saying, to Hitachi, no that train isn't good enough, supply us now with another. It's not good enough to keep saying missed contract amount again today, then do nothing heavy handed about it.

What is often forgotten when people moan, they forget that contracts are 2 way street, have to meet your requirements if want other side to meet theirs as well. If both sides let things slip then the contract becomes seen a vague aspiration or loose target, not the minimum standard that it is supposed to be.

The faults are graded in the contract so GWR is limited in what it can reject a set for. The contracts are structured so that you get % rebates for certain faults, not an automatic right to reject if it isn’t perfect.

The last person I would let anywhere near a set is a lawyer - you need someone who knows what he or she is looking at!

When you have to cancel a service because a set could run out of fuel for the remainder of its diagram or you have to use the universal “too many sets out of service requiring maintenance (or repairs)” statement, it shows that Control have had an “interesting” day.

I suspect the MD is not at all happy and someone at Hitachi will be getting a call, if they haven’t already received one.

 

[irish_rail]

The fact we don't hear of half of these problems on LNER does show the value of a predominantly 9 car fleet, something GWR can only dream of.

 

[Krokodil]

What is often forgotten when people moan, they forget that contracts are 2 way street,

In the case of the Agility contract, it's more like this sort of street:

 

[FGW_DID]

Regarding the 22:00, what a lame excuse given. I've never encountered this reason before.

Nothing lame about it at all. It happens, above what’s stopped for scheduled maintenance, trains break, things go wrong! You may start the day with a number of spare sets, they can soon get eaten up with a whole smorgasbord of failures.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The fact we don't hear of half of these problems on LNER does show the value of a predominantly 9 car fleet, something GWR can only dream of.

No, it’s nothing to do with that - they operate at a much lower availability target, despite the contract saying it should be more. If they had to run out the same percentage as GWR, there would be plenty of cancellations, even allowing for a largely electric fleet on LNER.

As a taxpayer, I’m not at all happy about the IEP contracts and how they have gone since inception. It’s something that someone will dig into, at some point in the future.

 

[Taunton]

Long family experience was that picking up a service at Taunton through from Penzance in the summer was always a challenge for seats. One used to peruse the timetable for which were the main services from Cornwall, which had portions from Torbay added at Newton Abbot (which normally had more seats left), to which end of the train, and which came from the Torbay line only, the best. Of course, one of the issues nowadays is it is more difficult to spot this easily, with dumbed-down timetable extracts which only show your own station's departures.

The Western out of Paddington has always had a geographical arrangement on its main lines which suited dropping off half the formation en route. In old loco-hauled days this extended to dropping off the refreshment car at that point as well, rather than taking it, unmanned, to the end. Hereford is a particular case, where half the train gets out at Oxford and many of the rest by Worcester. It would be a waste to drag 10 cars to Hereford and back. Likewise Swansea, Plymouth, and even (going back in history) Wolverhampton. It did seem that all the new 5-car trains were a good idea to handle this, but they seem to have fallen foul of a range of issues - their coverage being overextended, some lacklustre diagramming, along with similar timetabling of intermediate stops, the various mechanical and contractual issues described above, etc. Certainly when on the GWML west of Paddington I am really surprised at the number of single 5-car trains around.

 

[heathrowrail]

In a recent Modern Railways article about LNER its mentioned that from May they diagram 49 of 65 80X's so 75% availability which is pathetic, is GWR diagraming/achieving a similar level then?

Quote from Bedwyn Passenger Group

"GWR have got back to us with an explanation:

Currently we are seeing too many short notice short forms (e.g. five car IETs instead of ten cars). We have a train plan that allows for 13 IET sets to be out at any one time for maintenance, repair and regular required examinations. At the moment there are 19 sets out. This is a combination of higher than expected sets needing repair due to damage and vandalism and too many sets being out for heavy maintenance at the same time. We have spoken to Hitachi about this and the need for better planning."

 

[Snow1964]

Definitely up on London - Devon & Cornwall.

The problem is DfT doesn't seem to care about crowding away from the cities, or on rural branch lines. It has even issued a press update that this is coming

National statistics announcement

Rail passenger numbers and crowding statistics in several major cities in England and Wales during 2022.

These statistics will be released on 25 July 2023 9:30am

You don't need to be a genius to work out if you deliberately exclude the regional areas from your statistics, then clearly not going to realise if there is a crowding problem in these areas, and can play naive that it isn't showing up as busy. As for date of issue, just happens to have picked first week of summer recess.

Rail passenger numbers and crowding on weekdays in major cities in England and Wales: 2022 (revised)

Rail passenger numbers and crowding statistics in several major cities in England and Wales during 2022.

www.gov.uk

 

[Annetts key]

Yes, trains have been cancelled before due to “running out of fuel” and “running low on fuel” before. This has happened to me. The guard (senior conductor/train manager) walked through the set and informed the passengers to get off, as the service was now cancelled due to the driver refusing to take the train forward, as it would run out of fuel before reaching it’s scheduled destination.

The “This train has been cancelled because of more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time” is now a standard excuse. I heard a PA system announcing this yesterday when I was on a station. It’s related to Hitachi not making enough 80X sets available (for whatever reason).

 

[irish_rail]

Quote from Bedwyn Passenger Group

"GWR have got back to us with an explanation:

Currently we are seeing too many short notice short forms (e.g. five car IETs instead of ten cars). We have a train plan that allows for 13 IET sets to be out at any one time for maintenance, repair and regular required examinations. At the moment there are 19 sets out. This is a combination of higher than expected sets needing repair due to damage and vandalism and too many sets being out for heavy maintenance at the same time. We have spoken to Hitachi about this and the need for better planning."

So I read that as cleaning off the graffiti (of which there are several sets running about). Personally I'd worry less about graffiti and more about running the correct number of carriages. A bit of paint on the outside brightening up the set is really not the end of the world. Concentrate on stopping it happening in the first place with better security at depots then clean up the existing sets when time allows.

 

[3RDGEN]

Quote from Bedwyn Passenger Group

"GWR have got back to us with an explanation:

Currently we are seeing too many short notice short forms (e.g. five car IETs instead of ten cars). We have a train plan that allows for 13 IET sets to be out at any one time for maintenance, repair and regular required examinations. At the moment there are 19 sets out. This is a combination of higher than expected sets needing repair due to damage and vandalism and too many sets being out for heavy maintenance at the same time. We have spoken to Hitachi about this and the need for better planning."

So 80 from 93 giving 86% availability which is reasonably given its a full hybrid fleet and there will be units out for crack repairs for sometime to come. Hitachi have had plenty of time now to get on top of the mtce regime so they need to get closer to the planned numbers or they need to increase their fleet size to deliver the required number of sets.

(86% availability on LNER would be 5 or 6 sets more, enough to cover the MkIV diagrams)

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

So 80 from 93 giving 86% availability which is reasonably given its a full hybrid fleet and there will be units out for crack repairs for sometime to come. Hitachi have had plenty of time now to get on top of the mtce regime so they need to get closer to the planned numbers or they need to increase their fleet size to deliver the required number of sets.

(86% availability on LNER would be 5 or 6 sets more, enough to cover the MkIV diagrams)

Pigs will raise their pantographs and run under the GWEP wires before Hitachi build more trains for the GWR trainfleet I suspect.

 

[Cletus]

I imagine there will more problems today as I’ve been stuck at Taunton for nearly 2 hours.

 

[Anonymous10]

I imagine there will more problems today as I’ve been stuck at Taunton for nearly 2 hours.

Also unable to run into Portsmouth Harbour today. Looks like another rough day for the gwr network

 

[Class15]

1F20, cancelled at Bristol Temple Meads because it wouldn't have enough fuel to reach Cardiff.

Isn’t most of that route electrified?! Not enough fuel to run to Bristol Parkway?

 

[Krokodil]

Isn’t most of that route electrified?! Not enough fuel to run to Bristol Parkway?

How many class 166s have pantographs?

 

[Master29]

The issue is GWR only has so much power; the way that the (utterly mad) IET contract works with Hitachi is they have a lot of say over things, many of which are not in the slightest passenger-friendly. This comes particularly to a head on Saturday & Sunday - with the latter also impacted by GWR's Sunday overtime situation - as they simply aren't flexible enough to cope with the growth of leisure travel.

It isn't like the growth in the leisure industry in Devon and Cornwall has been a surprise is it. It's been growing for years and for a while now it's not just from June to the end of August. Successive governments have had years to modernize the W of E but never bothered probably for electoral reasons and now we have a poor replacement for a train that was originally a stopgap when it was introduced 47 years ago but I digress.

Other issues now include certain 9 car sets are effectively "banned" from the longer runs, ie London to Penzance , due to a new style of DSD pedal fitted that has been lets just say "unpopular" amongst drivers.

That's interesting. We seem to see as many 800/3's going to Penzance as 802/1's though I`m guessing it isn't necessarily specific to either sub-class.

 

[Mark J]

XC are just as bad for short formations.

Currently on a more than full and standing service from Reading to Oxford.

Who on earth within XC thinks it is a smart or acceptable idea to run a five carriage train from Bournemouth all the way through to Manchester Piccadilly.

Regarding 'carting fresh air about' with longer formations. Seems to happen regularly with Thameslink and Elizabeth line services later in the evening.

 

[JonathanH]

Who ln earth within XC thinks it is a smart or acceptable idea to run a five carriage train from Bournemouth all the way through to Manchester Piccadilly.

Better than a four carriage train. It is hardly a new situation. It has been normal for 20 years.

 

[Clarence Yard]

So I read that as cleaning off the graffiti (of which there are several sets running about). Personally I'd worry less about graffiti and more about running the correct number of carriages. A bit of paint on the outside brightening up the set is really not the end of the world. Concentrate on stopping it happening in the first place with better security at depots then clean up the existing sets when time allows.

That’s a wrong read - it’s not graffiti, it’s damage due to hitting trees, animals and suffering broken windows. There were 6 units stopped yesterday for damage repairs of some description and that was before 800005 hit a tree, which has taken that one out of service as well.

 

[Pokelet]

XC are just as bad for short formations.

Currently on a more than full and standing service from Reading to Oxford.

Who ln earth within XC thinks it is a smart or acceptable idea to run a five carriage train from Bournemouth all the way through to Manchester Piccadilly.

Regarding 'carting fresh air about' with longer formations. Seems to happen regularly with Thameslink and Elizabeth line services later in the evening.

XC ran a 3 car 170 on a Bristol- Edinburgh this morning, swapped to a 4 car voyager at BHM

Realtime Trains | 1S41 0850 Bristol Temple Meads to Edinburgh | 16/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 1S41 0850 departure from Bristol Temple Meads to Edinburgh on 16/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder that this thread is about GWR not Cross Country

thanks

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

It isn't like the growth in the leisure industry in Devon and Cornwall has been a surprise is it. It's been growing for years and for a while now it's not just from June to the end of August. Successive governments have had years to modernize the W of E but never bothered probably for electoral reasons and now we have a poor replacement for a train that was originally a stopgap when it was introduced 47 years ago but I digress.

Devon and Cornwall wasn't even going to get IETs but life-extended HSTs thanks to Philip Hammond - the 802s were a GWR initiative.

 

[Class15]

How many class 166s have pantographs?

Oh. My mistake. I thought the discussion was about 800 problems so I assumed it was an IET.

 

[cactustwirly]

Assuming that there isn't an increase in capacity by this time next year, would it be possible to consider the idea of making some of the busiest services pick up/set down only at some stations? So for example at Reading, try and persuade those who travel between London and Reading only onto Class 345 operated services.

If you're willing to drop the fares to take into account the cattle class conditions and extended journey times.
Ignoring the fact that the Elizabeth is overcrowded anyway.

 

[Mark J]

So I read that as cleaning off the graffiti (of which there are several sets running about). Personally I'd worry less about graffiti and more about running the correct number of carriages. A bit of paint on the outside brightening up the set is really not the end of the world. Concentrate on stopping it happening in the first place with better security at depots then clean up the existing sets when time allows.

With many £tens of millions of train units sitting in a depot area, you would of thought security would be far better than it is, to allow trains to be vandalised in the first place.