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GWR short train lengths

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Master29

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Tempers fraying (fortunately in a repressed British sort of way) on the 2249 Neath out of Paddington tonight. Not mine as I'm adopting a zen-like resignation to being wedged in a vestibule again as this is now par for the course and I arrived expecting it. (One of) the guard(s) was actively encouraging anyone who could take a different service to do so. This situation is the routine now this service has been dropped to 5 car by design.
That TOC's are actively asking people to take other services sometimes with another operator is in itself disgraceful.
The government is saying that income is down (it is) and that the railway is unsustainably expensive to run
They say whatever they want whenever it suits them. The railways are routinely dubbed unsustainably expensive by this crowd. Strange how the rest of Europe seem to manage it.
We are in a situation where the railway is nudging past pre-pandemic passenger numbers but only getting around 80% of the revenue, while costs are rising too. That is why the government is asking operators to reduce their overheads.
Yes but specifically where might be closer to the point.
 
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HamworthyGoods

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They say whatever they want whenever it suits them. The railways are routinely dubbed unsustainably expensive by this crowd. Strange how the rest of Europe seem to manage it.

Comparing with Europe is like comparing apples with pears. UK has a very different funding system - 50% of funding comes through the fare box, so has been hit to a greater extent by the loss of season ticket holders compared to most European countries which its at 25%.

UK has different priorities to fund from tax, for example the NHS which is pretty unique to the UK where you don’t need your own health insurance etc.
 

43066

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Comparing with Europe is like comparing apples with pears. UK has a very different funding system - 50% of funding comes through the fare box, so has been hit to a greater extent by the loss of season ticket holders compared to most European countries which its at 25%.

UK has different priorities to fund from tax, for example the NHS which is pretty unique to the UK where you don’t need your own health insurance etc.

But the comparisons are relevant, because all of the above are the results of decisions that have been taken in this country over the past few decades. In the case of adopting the NHS as a healthcare model, very poor decisions indeed.

The fundamental problem is that successive governments have failed to prioritise good quality public services. That situation could be changed if the political will was there to do so.
 
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Annetts key

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The problem is that successive governments have preferred to boast about tax cuts rather than reducing debt. So, when government does have really good reasons to borrow more (COVID19), we end up with even more debt.

Then with the economy not doing well (a combination of things), the government decides that reducing spending on important infrastructure and important services is the answer!

It was blindly obvious to me, that the increase in the cost of energy due to the Russian war in Ukraine would lead to a rise in inflation. And that we desperately needed reform of the UK energy markets.

But the government didn’t do this. Hence if/until the price of energy plummets, prices will continue rising, and hence inflation will not fall away.

Not that I think the current government would have funded the railways (and other services such as the NHS, schools etc.) properly even if Russia had behaved itself.

The Great Western (Western and Wales) really needed the OLE to have continued going up. And as more lines were electrified, electric trains could displace the existing DMUs to the the remaining un-electrified lines.

Instead, it’s back to make do and mend. You know, something that was supposed to have gone in the bin with privatisation.

And, what’s worse, even the “new” stock (80X) is make do and mend, what with the various problems that are being found with them.

It’s almost enough to start chanting that phase that Marvin The Paranoid Android likes to say…
 

Master29

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Comparing with Europe is like comparing apples with pears. UK has a very different funding system - 50% of funding comes through the fare box, so has been hit to a greater extent by the loss of season ticket holders compared to most European countries which its at 25%.

UK has different priorities to fund from tax, for example the NHS which is pretty unique to the UK where you don’t need your own health insurance etc.

Bringing in the NHS as a justification is poor reasoning. Like I said before, the government seem to magic money out of thin air when they need to but since we have a crony and gangster style economy, railways are always going to be treated as a poor relation.
It was blindly obvious to me, that the increase in the cost of energy due to the Russian war in Ukraine would lead to a rise in inflation. And that we desperately needed reform of the UK energy markets.

But the government didn’t do this. Hence if/until the price of energy plummets, prices will continue rising, and hence inflation will not fall away.
The Ukraine/ Russia war is not very good reasoning. We seem to have more than enough for defending our non existent territories overseas. Plenty of magic money there.
 

Clarence Yard

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With load 12 on a Turbo, you used to get some interesting through control issues if you went pass (they were tested specifically for this), so 9 became the limit very early in their careers.

Today the fleet disposition has tested Control. It was out of balance overnight and with the train crew shortages in the west today, coupled with the odd failure (and a unit hitting a tree), Control have been earning their money today.

The out of balance issue has also affected the IET fleet and some of the formations but there also has been a shortage of 9 cars.
 

Snow1964

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Will be cosy on Portsmouth-Cardiff this morning, 1F04, 1F06, 1F08 all cancelled with a mere 3car unit doing 4th train
 

Mark J

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I too get annoyed with the GWR short formations.

From Reading:

To Oxford can be a nine car IET, or a five car. It is pot luck as to whether the Oxford only train you get will be five, or nine cars.

To Worcester/Hereford - Always a five car unit, which is utter madness. Not only is this five car set expected to carry all the usual London/Reading to Oxford traffic, but the extra people going to Worcester/Hereford.

I now actively avoid any train listed as Worcester/Hereford as I know it will be five cars and heavily overcrowded.

XC are just as bad. Running four/five car sets from Bournemouth all the way through to Manchester.

I had reservations about five car sets even before they entered service, questioning why more nine unit sets weren't procured for use on popular and busy routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

What's the longest formation turbos can work in? Presumably this is close to the max.
I miss the Turbos on mainline operation in the Thames Valley. A decent unit with good capacity. At least you weren't standing in a stuffy vestibule if the train was busy.

Luckily the 23:05 from Oxford (on weekdays) is still a class 165/166 operated service. Stopping only at Didcot on the way to Reading.
 
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Horizon22

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I too get annoyed with the GWR short formations.

From Reading:

To Oxford can be a nine car IET, or a five car. It is pot luck as to whether the Oxford only train you get will be five, or nine cars.

To Worcester/Hereford - Always a five car unit, which is utter madness. Not only is this five car set expected to carry all the usual London/Reading to Oxford traffic, but the extra people going to Worcester/Hereford.

I now actively avoid any train listed as Worcester/Hereford as I know it will be five cars and heavily overcrowded.

XC are just as bad. Running four/five car sets from Bournemouth all the way through to Manchester.

I had reservations about five car sets even before they entered service, questioning why more nine unit sets weren't procured for use on popular and busy routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


I miss the Turbos on mainline operation in the Thames Valley. A decent unit with good capacity.

Luckily the 23:05 from Oxford (on weekdays) is still a class 165/166 operated service. Stopping only at Didcot on the way to Reading.

Anything going via Oxford is always rammed - I’ve seen 9-cars full and standing and then over half the train gets off.

Ultimately not electrifying to Oxford has had significant consequences.
 

Mark J

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Anything going via Oxford is always rammed - I’ve seen 9-cars full and standing and then over half the train gets off.

Ultimately not electrifying to Oxford has had significant consequences.
I too have seen nine car units full and standing. Indeed, as was the nine car unit on my last visit during Saturday last week.

Which makes the case of running five car units as utter lunacy, when even nine car units are usually full and standing.

All trains should be at least nine cars to major destinations such as Oxford, Worcester, Bristol, Swansea, Cardiff, Exeter and Plymouth.

Especially at busy times and during the increasingly busy weekends.

I also do not understand why many 'fast' services to Oxford now have to stop at Didcot - and in some cases Radley - when this wasn't the case previously. This also adds to the issue of an already overcrowded train coming from Reading.
 

irish_rail

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I too have seen nine car units full and standing. Indeed, as was the nine car unit on my last visit during Saturday last week.

Which makes the case of running five car units as utter lunacy, when even nine car units are usually full and standing.

All trains should be at least nine cars to major destinations such as Oxford, Worcester, Bristol, Swansea, Cardiff, Exeter and Plymouth.

Especially at busy times and during the increasingly busy weekends.

I also do not understand why many 'fast' services to Oxford now have to stop at Didcot - and in some cases Radley - when this wasn't the case previously. This also adds to the issue of an already overcrowded train coming from Reading.
I agree. Sadly the money isn't there and we will struggle on until the Hitachi production is closed down and it will be too late to order additional coaches. These short formed trains are here to stay i reckon for the life of the trains unless someone starts putting pressure on the Dft to throw some money at extending some 5 cars to 9s. Sadly there doesn't seem to be any political will.
 

74A

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Oxford route has a number of problems

I believe originally all Worcester/Hereford services were planned to be 10 car with 5 detaching at Oxford. Then the cracking issues came along so not enough units to do that.

Also Chiltern are no longer providing a competitive option if you travel from Marylebone. Prior to covid there wasn't much difference in journey time compared to Paddington.

Now however with the DfT cuts journey time from Marylebone takes longer. About 1h22m compared to 52 minutes from Paddington. So most people travel from Paddington making the services even busier.
 

Clarence Yard

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No - the North Cots was to be a mix of 5 and 9 cars west of Oxford. The cracking issue has nothing to do with unit availability because nominally only one set is away for repairs at any one time and none are stopped on depot awaiting works.

The simple fact is that the fleet is being stretched to cover some of the services the GTi sets used to cover but the general availability from Hitachi is poor, for a number of reasons. GWR have been up to 10 IET sets short on their daily requirement but recently it has varied between 3 and 5, with odd days less than that.

Any failure or any imbalance of sets at start of day and there will usually be short forms somewhere during the day, mostly depending on where the imbalance starts from and where, if any, spare sets can be found.
 

Sleepy

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1203 Paddington to Penzance had over 1000 on board today with people left behind at Reading - can't imagine how that would be if a 5 car was on it !!
 

irish_rail

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1203 Paddington to Penzance had over 1000 on board today with people left behind at Reading - can't imagine how that would be if a 5 car was on it !!
This isn't a surprise this week they seem crazy busy, especially past couple of days, if only a relief train or two could be magiced up
 

HamworthyGoods

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1203 Paddington to Penzance had over 1000 on board today with people left behind at Reading - can't imagine how that would be if a 5 car was on it !!

The challenges with the 12.03 Penzance especially on a Friday are well known and there’s plans to look at a solution for next summer.
 

Sleepy

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The challenges with the 12.03 Penzance especially on a Friday are well known and there’s plans to look at a solution for next summer.
Perhaps allowing Super Off Peak tickets to be used on 1004 Penzance on Fridays to stations beyond Newton Abbot would help ??
 

RPI

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Perhaps allowing Super Off Peak tickets to be used on 1004 Penzance on Fridays to stations beyond Newton Abbot would help ??
Making the 10:04 Super Off-Peak needs to happen anyway, everyone for Exeter now end up getting on the 10:35 which is now booked a 5 car. I worked it yesterday from Paddington (10:35) and it was full (not standing though) leaving Paddington.
 

Benjwri

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I believe originally all Worcester/Hereford services were planned to be 10 car with 5 detaching at Oxford. Then the cracking issues came along so not enough units to do that.
Even without cracking this was impossible because of the longer than expected times to couple units, which unfortunately Oxford cannot handle on the current two platforms without a frequency reduction.
 

Parallel

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Perhaps allowing Super Off Peak tickets to be used on 1004 Penzance on Fridays to stations beyond Newton Abbot would help ??
I caught the 10:04 a few weeks ago and there wasn’t a huge amount of room on board, I’m not sure there’s room for all those customers with super off-peak tickets. You’d end up with a worse example of the 12:04.
 
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