GWR short train lengths

[geoffk]

GWR is now running six trains a day to/from Carmarthen - perhaps this should have been delayed until the stock situation had improved. Hindsight is great though.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

GWR is now running six trains a day to/from Carmarthen - perhaps this should have been delayed until the stock situation had improved. Hindsight is great though.

Sometimes you have to bring a problem to a head to get a solution - this maybe the case here with hitachi.

 

[cactustwirly]

GWR is now running six trains a day to/from Carmarthen - perhaps this should have been delayed until the stock situation had improved. Hindsight is great though.

I don't understand the rationale for this, as they are hardly busy services west of Swansea

 

[Miken]

This shows that your MP is not that interested in following up communications (or your issue) and it seems any communication to the Ministry will just get lost. I have the same problem when writing to my MP, the standard answer is that "I will forward it to the minister concerned". You should chase your MP for a reply, if you still don't get a response start embarrassing them on social media for what it is worth.

I wrote to my (Tory safe seat) MP last year about the complete failure of the DFT to provide an effective, reliable and safe railway transport network (at 30,000+ miles per anum on business the railway is an integral part of my safe, effective and sustainable business plan). I was answered by a PR person who referred me to the Transport Secretary. I was forwarded his reply some weeks later and it was the most patronising, slippery and unhelpful correspondence I have ever been sent. From chair it just reinforces my view that politicians and civil servants couldn't care less about the public they are supposed to serve. My empathy and support goes out to the staff on the railway who I know try their best to run a railway they don't actually control. I do hope that a change of government might do some good but wouldn't bet on it...

 

[Bluejays]

I wrote to my (Tory safe seat) MP last year about the complete failure of the DFT to provide an effective, reliable and safe railway transport network (at 30,000+ miles per anum on business the railway is an integral part of my safe, effective and sustainable business plan). I was answered by a PR person who referred me to the Transport Secretary. I was forwarded his reply some weeks later and it was the most patronising, slippery and unhelpful correspondence I have ever been sent. From chair it just reinforces my view that politicians and civil servants couldn't care less about the public they are supposed to serve. My empathy and support goes out to the staff on the railway who I know try their best to run a railway they don't actually control. I do hope that a change of government might do some good but wouldn't bet on it...

In fairness. I suppose at least by being patronising, slippery and unhelpful he was being his true self. A rare truthful politician.

Being serious, I completely agree with your message and understand your frustration. So many let downs from the railway at the moment, such as the constant short forms from GWR. Seemingly no desire or plan to do anything about it from those in control of the industry.

 

[Falcon1200]

The issue with which I revitalised this topic (on Monday 26th, 1118 Paddington -Cardiff cancelled and 1148 Paddington - Carmarthen 5 cars only) was not AFAIK down to Control, or even the DfT; the 1118 was a planned cancellation (not appearing in Real-time Trains, while there was an ECS to Castle Cary leaving at the same time!) , but simply that no-one has considered the impact of cancelling one train and short forming the next, so nothing other than poor planning.

 

[irish_rail]

In fairness. I suppose at least by being patronising, slippery and unhelpful he was being his true self. A rare truthful politician.

Being serious, I completely agree with your message and understand your frustration. So many let downs from the railway at the moment, such as the constant short forms from GWR. Seemingly no desire or plan to do anything about it from those in control of the industry.

And that last bit is what worries me. There really does seem no light at the end of the tunnel with this one. Dft are preoccupied with Trans pennine and all the pressure being heaped on it by northerners, meanwhile GWR goes unnoticed. I guess the trouble is most of the time the service does run, just not with the correct number of coaches and so the media don't really care and no one kicks up a stink. But if there where ever a time when additional coaches where needed to be built for some GWR 5 car sets , then this is it. Just a shame that isn't going to happen , and when someone finally does decide to do it Hitachi will probably have shut the production line. Of the 20 or so GWR IETs I've seen today, 4 were "big" the others all 5 car.

 

[Krokodil]

Also keeping 800's coupling to 800's and 802's to 802's, as they are still not permitted to couple.

For goodness sake, we never had this trouble with 15x.

 

[Annetts key]

The current government is not going to provide funding for any more trains, as it’s mantra is that there are less people travelling by train. Hence the railways should be able to get by with less funding.

And they don’t appear to want to acknowledge or care that the reality in the real world, may not be the same as what is written down in their documents and spreadsheets.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The issue with which I revitalised this topic (on Monday 26th, 1118 Paddington -Cardiff cancelled and 1148 Paddington - Carmarthen 5 cars only) was not AFAIK down to Control, or even the DfT; the 1118 was a planned cancellation (not appearing in Real-time Trains, while there was an ECS to Castle Cary leaving at the same time!) , but simply that no-one has considered the impact of cancelling one train and short forming the next, so nothing other than poor planning.

Mistakes happen, GWR planning is usually very adept and I’m sure will pick up on this for the future. The pressure the planning teams have been under since the start of Covid has been well documented on this forum and sadly from time to time things will get overlooked or there not be the time to resolve - it’s been commented on here a several times a plan is better than no plan.

 

[Snow1964]

I wrote to my (Tory safe seat) MP last year about the complete failure of the DFT to provide an effective, reliable and safe railway transport network (at 30,000+ miles per anum on business the railway is an integral part of my safe, effective and sustainable business plan). I was answered by a PR person who referred me to the Transport Secretary. I was forwarded his reply some weeks later and it was the most patronising, slippery and unhelpful correspondence I have ever been sent. From chair it just reinforces my view that politicians and civil servants couldn't care less about the public they are supposed to serve. My empathy and support goes out to the staff on the railway who I know try their best to run a railway they don't actually control. I do hope that a change of government might do some good but wouldn't bet on it...

I had a reply in March from my MP about GWR short forms and this is part of the reply letter that was forwarded from Rail Minister.

To help reduce the number of short formations, GWR has recently confirmed plans to bring four-car Class 158 trains onto the Portsmouth to Cardiff route from the May 2023 timetable change. I am sure that you and your constituents will join me in welcoming this move from GWR.
From time to time, it is necessary to short form services rather than cancel the services altogether. GWR and the Department prioritise safety and will not allow excess boarding when a train is full; GWR staff are trained on this and if a train reaches capacity, they will prevent further boarding. This might be through removing station stops, or by refusing to allow customers to join a train. This can cause inconvenience for passengers, but passenger safety must be prioritised. Where this does occur GWR staff do everything they can to support those inconvenienced passengers.

So now you know official DfT line with GWR short forms, inconvenienced passengers will be supported by GWR staff. Bit of a pain for a guard when passengers can't get on at unmanned stations, but DfT thinks it's ok.

Also note DfT was expecting 4car trains on Cardiff-Portsmouth from May, not the mix of 3car and 4car which GWR currently doing.

 

[Anonymous10]

I had a reply in March from my MP about GWR short forms and this is part of the reply letter that was forwarded from Rail Minister.



So now you know official DfT line with GWR short forms, inconvenienced passengers will be supported by GWR staff. Bit of a pain for a guard when passengers can't get on at unmanned stations, but DfT thinks it's ok.

Also note DfT was expecting 4car trains on Cardiff-Portsmouth from May, not the mix of 3car and 4car which GWR currently doing.

worth noting that even 4 carriages is less than the previous 5

 

[Mag_seven]

Numerous short forms (i.e. 5 cars vice either 9 or 10) on IET operated services reported on GWR journey check this evening with at least one service reported as "full and standing" as a result.

 

[SWT_USER]

Are the Paddington to Didcot stoppers diagramed as 4 cars? Saw a couple yesterday - seems surprising given the fragility of the Elizabeth line on the western section.

 

[The exile]

I had a reply in March from my MP about GWR short forms and this is part of the reply letter that was forwarded from Rail Minister.



So now you know official DfT line with GWR short forms, inconvenienced passengers will be supported by GWR staff. Bit of a pain for a guard when passengers can't get on at unmanned stations, but DfT thinks it's ok.

Also note DfT was expecting 4car trains on Cardiff-Portsmouth from May, not the mix of 3car and 4car which GWR currently doing.

“We are going to reduce short-forming by shortening the length of the trains from 5 to 4 coaches” George Orwell’s Ministry of Truth would be proud!

 

[43055]

It's a complicated balancing act for GWR controllers at the moment as Carmarthen and some Penzance services have to be 10 / 5 cars making swaps at Paddington much more difficult.

Also keeping 800's coupling to 800's and 802's to 802's, as they are still not permitted to couple.

I thought 800's and 802's could be worked in multiple now?

 

[800301]

Are the Paddington to Didcot stoppers diagramed as 4 cars? Saw a couple yesterday - seems surprising given the fragility of the Elizabeth line on the western section.

Quite a few split and join at Reading/Pad but there are more 4 cars diagramed in the current timetable and some 12’s thrown in for good measure

 

[JN114]

Are the Paddington to Didcot stoppers diagramed as 4 cars? Saw a couple yesterday - seems surprising given the fragility of the Elizabeth line on the western section.

There are now 3 fewer 387s in the GWR fleet now, that “pain” is shared between the Didcot and Newbury lines with circuits on both now formed as 4 cars for much of the day instead of 8 cars as the vast majority were a year ago or so.

More peak-only strengthening happens now though, and I’m 99% sure nothing is diagrammed shorter than 8 in the peak direction to/from London.

 

[Parallel]

GWR is now running six trains a day to/from Carmarthen - perhaps this should have been delayed until the stock situation had improved. Hindsight is great though.

I think I read that the Carmarthen extensions only utilise one 5-car IET due to the splitting and attaching at Swansea. The 5 car IETs need to go somewhere, they already see wide use on the North Cots line and the Paddington - Cheltenham services via Stroud. 10 cars can't be ideal for the West of England due to all the short platforms beyond Plymouth. It's unfortunate that unit availability is seeing so many short forms but I'd suspect that cancelling the Carmarthen extentions isn't going to make much difference to overall unit availability.

 

[father_jack]

“We are going to reduce short-forming by shortening the length of the trains from 5 to 4 coaches” George Orwell’s Ministry of Truth would be proud!

A bit like notoriously late running trains getting a few more minutes running time in the next timetable so they're now "less" late or trains with frequently missed connections having their connection time made not valid any more......

 

[Krokodil]

“We are going to reduce short-forming by shortening the length of the trains from 5 to 4 coaches” George Orwell’s Ministry of Truth would be proud!

I have genuinely had "due to more trains than usual requiring repairs, X will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 4"

Despite the fact that it seems bizarre that being short of stock would mean a longer train, there was logic behind it.

 

[vicbury]

Three coaches yet again for me this morning between Cardiff and Bristol on the Portsmouth Harbour service. It's absurd that we are going back to the situation that was meant to have been resolved years ago.

 

[The exile]

A bit like notoriously late running trains getting a few more minutes runni g time in the next timetable so they're now "less" late or trains with frequently missed connections having their connection time made not valid any more......

At least in all 3 cases future passengers know where they stand. In the case of shortened trains, it’s on the platform because they can’t get on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2023 ==

I have genuinely had "due to more trains than usual requiring repairs, X will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 4"

Despite the fact that it seems bizarre that being short of stock would mean a longer train, there was logic behind it.

The irony being that (assuming it was IET vice HST) the most important difference - that fewer bicycles could be carried - is not mentioned! I say most important because unlike 5 coaches instead of 4 it will actually inconvenience people.

 

[ValleyLines142]

9 car out today, running diagrams between Plymouth and Penzance, Penzance and Gloucester, and Gloucester to temple meads. If there is a reason for this I don't understand it, you'd think that 9 car would be a lot more useful elsewhere

The Gloucester diagram was a 9 car because of a fatality at Cam & Dursley on Tuesday. It was restarted from Bristol but swapped out on the return (I was on it!).

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Three coaches yet again for me this morning between Cardiff and Bristol on the Portsmouth Harbour service. It's absurd that we are going back to the situation that was meant to have been resolved years ago.

Unfortunately the funding profile from Treasury has changed since this was resolved a few years ago, since then GWR has had to introduce extra services to Okehampton (2 units) and Metro West (5 units?) from within the existing fleet base, which itself is reduced due to 2 units in for return at a time. So it’s not exactly surprising working the fleet harder is taking its toll!

Metro West: 5 units - 2 units for the extra Gloucester half-hourly, 1 unit for the hourly Worcester, 1 unit for half-hourly Severn Beach and 1 unit for extra Westbury services.

 

[43096]

Unfortunately the funding profile from Treasury has changed since this was resolved a few years ago, since then GWR has had to introduce extra services to Okehampton (2 units) and Metro West (5 units?) from within the existing fleet base, which itself is reduced due to 2 units in for return at a time. So it’s not exactly surprising working the fleet harder is taking its toll!

Metro West: 5 units - 2 units for the extra Gloucester half-hourly, 1 unit for the hourly Worcester, 1 unit for half-hourly Severn Beach and 1 unit for extra Westbury services.

And have also lost a unit from the Salisbury Tunnel accident.

 

[Snow1964]

Unfortunately the funding profile from Treasury has changed since this was resolved a few years ago, since then GWR has had to introduce extra services to Okehampton (2 units) and Metro West (5 units?) from within the existing fleet base, which itself is reduced due to 2 units in for return at a time. So it’s not exactly surprising working the fleet harder is taking its toll!

Metro West: 5 units - 2 units for the extra Gloucester half-hourly, 1 unit for the hourly Worcester, 1 unit for half-hourly Severn Beach and 1 unit for extra Westbury services.

You don't need to be a genius to work out if work units harder, they wear old faster, and need more maintenance, then get more problems with units unavailable due to maintenance.

All the new Bristol area Metrowest enhancements seem to be based on 5car platforms, but many of the services are mere 2car as that is all that can be mustered with the stretched fleet.

To operate 5car trains need identical numbers of 2car and 3car units that can couple together. GWR fleet is miles away from this.

As far as I can work out, current short term plan is to continue with 31-34 year old 158, 165, 166 fleet (nearer 36 years old for 150s), and (try to) keep them going until June 2028, but for time being not order any replacements.

Yes people are being left behind at times as GWR Bristol and West Country regional & local services are at about 130% of pre-covid levels (no official published numbers but sources seem to vary from 125-140%), however you look at it the local west fleet size is nowhere near 130% of pre-covid

 

[Krokodil]

The irony being that (assuming it was IET vice HST)

It wasn't GWR

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As far as I can work out, current short term plan is to continue with 31-34 year old 158, 165, 166 fleet (nearer 36 years old for 150s), and (try to) keep them going until June 2028, but for time being not order any replacements.

I think you’re well aware of the short and medium term fleet strategy as directed by the dft as you’ve quoted it elsewhere on this forum so yes they do have to keep going with what they have.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2023 ==

And have also lost a unit from the Salisbury Tunnel accident.

Yes and no, that was the reason behind GWR withdrawing from Brighton so although they lost a unit they lost a unit diagram. So that ended up equal.

 

[Kingham West]

Cotswold Line Oxford Padd, we’re very busy last Saturday with 5 cars , clearly, it was truly awfull post Oxford .
This situation is “poising the well for rail travel “, very depressing and upsetting .
i do wonder if cl 175 units at a lower Least cost may be a way forward , for Cdf -Bristol -Portsmouth