What flight is the "young family friend" catching down in Paignton then?
Which station was the 16-17 Saver railcard bought at? How many of the "young people" are there? Do they all live in London?
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Which station was the 16-17 Saver railcard bought at? How many of the "young people" are there? Do they all live in London?
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anonymousdxb
Member
Yes I have everything, they only sent one email which was today.
They don't remember which station they bought a railcard from in July 2023!
On the occasion with the inspector, it was just the one, but I'm sure I've bought tickets for other cousins and family friends.
Good grief, they had arrived from Heathrow and then were travelling back to Heathrow after our trip to Devon, so we chose to take different trains so I could stay longer in Devon. It was a big group of us including their parents, I have photos and it was the summer.
But it was definitely at a station?
So why are we trying to find only one railcard?
anonymousdxb
Member
I believe so, since it was a physical and isn't in their railcard account, so I think the only way they could have purchased it is at a station.
Well, I was trying to find the one for the day that I was flagged by the inspector. And this is also the family friend who I purchased the vast majority of the tickets for, but obviously also my mother and other individuals. To be honest, I don't want to run around asking loads of people for a rail card from 2023, especially if GWR accept my explanation.
16-17 Savers aren't available at stations.
You're going to have to. This is what GWR will accept as proof. Introducing lots of random 16-17 year olds into the story has hugely complicated matters for you, whether that is true or not.
Are you saying that your friend no longer has the 16-17 railcard? Given that it only lasts a year, and the offence was in May 2024, then that is quite likely.
However, if your friend has now turned 17or 18, did they purchase an 18-25 railcard, and did you continue to buy them tickets between the same two stations. If so, this might help turn the balance of probabilities in your favour.
The OP has ceased buying all discounted tickets after they were stopped, as per the spreadsheet which lists all the discounted fares.
anonymousdxb
Member
Sorry, just Googled, it must have been via the telephone then. Perhaps that makes more sense regarding the bank transaction being to Railcard directly.
I'm sorry to have made things more complicated; perhaps I should just stick to this one individual.
Yes, they no longer have the railcard, it was valid July 2023 - July 2024. Not likely to be purchasing the same tickets as that was a trip to Devon that we did twice, but not since then.
Yep, now I only buy the 25-30 discounted tickets for myself for which I have a railcard.
Egg Centric
Established Member
What was the nature of this incidentally? Do you remember everything you said?
anonymousdxb
Member
Nope, it was so long ago, and I had a splitting headache and was so panicked.
Egg Centric
Established Member
Ok - is there a realistic possibility you said something inconsistent with the tickets being bought for your 16 year old friend(s)? If so what's the probability of them being prepared to testify on your behalf? I would imagine they're pretty erudite 17 or 18 year olds for an adult over 25 to be pally with them so it should be ok?
Must have been? Why must have been? I reckon they sell a tiny handful of these railcards over the phone. They pretty much all get sold online. The good news for you is that there will be an email confirmation of this, so I think it would be better to ask this person or whoever paid for it for the email confirmation. This will conclusively prove a railcard was held.
Well no, because that screenshot is not of a tranaction from 2023, but we'll let that one go.
Well no, you've *already* sent an email to GWR giving a very far fetched story that you buy loads of half price tickets for only people aged 16-17 years old, none of whom are named or evidenced in any way. A lot of those tickets are within the London contactless area, and undercut the adult contactless fare. A 16-17 year old in London will have a 16+ Zip Photo Oystercard anyway and wouldn't need someone else to buy them tickets for this and that short journey.
The good news for you is the forum can help you vastly reduce the amount owing to GWR, as a portion of what they are claiming is outside their jurisdiction, as well as charging penalties which they cannot claim in a court. But if we are going to do that we need to know exactly what happened. Your correspondence to GWR wasn't wise and anyone reading the tone of it will be able to draw their own conclusion as to what happened.
So, please tell us what happened. Buying half price tickets is not the crime of the century, but this is a civil matter, meaning a court does not even have to be sure you owe the money, just on the balance of probabilities (51% certainty basically). Put frankly, I don't think it is reasonable for you to expect GWR or a court to believe your unevidenced version of events.
anonymousdxb
Member
Good grief, this is a little accusatory. I've been quite honest about what has happened! I admitted that 90% of the 16-17 fares were used by this individual, and that I used the others. I cannot prove the existence of their expired railcard because I trusted that they had one and never checked for myself, and now it seems that they have not got any proof of it. I'm trying to liaise with my auntie regarding transactions from years ago, but I am struggling to get anywhere. They do not live in London and therefore did not have an Oyster card. And I wouldn't say loads, I would say a couple of times a month for this one individual teenager, and he had access to my Trainline app on his phone, so he would buy them himself on my account.
On the day of the 'offence', I actually did have my own ticket. I don't think I said anything about the family friend in the bodycam footage. I tried to write the email to GWR based what @WesternLancer had said:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter
At this stage, I would love any real advice regarding how I go forward. I am hoping that this will get settled outside of court, and therefore, the probability will not be relevant. However, I would love to be able to negotiate regarding what they are claiming that is 'outside of their jurisdiction' and charging penalties which would not be recoverable in court.
WesternLancer
Veteran Member
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Slight Problem here is that is advice aimed at securing out of court settlements for criminal prosecution of fare evasion or travel without a valid ticket cases but that’s not what you are faced with aiui now. They missed their chance to do that.
But they’ve calculated what they think you owe them and are now asking for that. If you can demonstrate you don’t owe it they probably can’t realistically obtain it at a court.
The threat you are facing though now is a civil action to recoup money from you.
So that’s rather different scenario really.
Tho probably not a bad guide to a co operative structure for a reply.
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anothertyke
Member
Let's see what GWR say in response to your message. I think it is quite likely they will say that unless you can produce solid evidence in the form of railcards, one or more teenagers who corroborate your statement etc, which cause them to revise or drop their claim, they intend to pursue court action if you do not settle in full. Let's see what happens, but what you would love to do and what you are able to do may be two different things. You may face a tough choice.
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Sorry, which person is this now? There are others as well, are there not? They will have an email confirmation of the purchase because every purchase made of a 16-17 Saver will generate one.
Why do all their fares originate in the London area then which is where you live? These are questions GWR will have, and a court will have about the numerous mysterious 16-17 year olds who don't live in London but whose fares all originated there. A court will want to know who these people are and it will massively help your case if you get them to vouch for you.
Your contention is that you owe GWR nothing, is it not?
Not relevant as you are saying you owe them nothing.
If you owe them nothing then you need to explicitly say so, deny any wrongdoing, retract the apology you gave them, and tell them to go whistle basically.
Your email to them is basically grovelling to settle but simultaneously saying everything is above board. That makes no sense at all.
You will have to wait and see what GWR say to your email first but there is nothing in it which will likely make them cease civil action.
tram21
Established Member
If this family friend did not hold a valid railcard when travelling, that is on them, and not on you, as you just bought tickets and didn't use them. Therefore, while you may not want to do this, you could pass on this person's details to GWR as they may have committed an offence and if you or they have proof they travelled then it'd be on them to recoup the costs of their wrongdoing.
Assuming this story is all true, and I have no reason to suspect its not, I do sympathise with your situation, but you do need to find some concrete evidence that it wasn't you using the tickets.
Assuming this story is all true, and I have no reason to suspect its not, I do sympathise with your situation, but you do need to find some concrete evidence that it wasn't you using the tickets.
@sabrina I think the point that others are making is that in a civil case, it is not about what GWR can prove beyond all reasonable doubt. It is about whose version of events a judge believes more.
With the greatest of respect, I am not sure your current explanation of events is necessarily going to convince a judge. That is why independent evidence (e.g. of 16-17 Saver Railcards from the people you bought tickets for) is going to be vital.
That's not to say that GWR will necessarily be awarded the £1100 they are asking for now. As with many things, it's effectively a starting point to the negotiations - they will say you owe the undiscounted Anytime Single for any journey made without a valid ticket, and you say that you didn't make those journeys or that you did have a valid ticket. The end result will probably be somewhere in the middle unless you are willing to fight it in Court (which it sounds like you'd prefer not to).
The threads that others have linked to are useful in terms of giving you an idea of the arguments against GWR's approach on the Anytime tickets and more generally.
With the greatest of respect, I am not sure your current explanation of events is necessarily going to convince a judge. That is why independent evidence (e.g. of 16-17 Saver Railcards from the people you bought tickets for) is going to be vital.
That's not to say that GWR will necessarily be awarded the £1100 they are asking for now. As with many things, it's effectively a starting point to the negotiations - they will say you owe the undiscounted Anytime Single for any journey made without a valid ticket, and you say that you didn't make those journeys or that you did have a valid ticket. The end result will probably be somewhere in the middle unless you are willing to fight it in Court (which it sounds like you'd prefer not to).
The threads that others have linked to are useful in terms of giving you an idea of the arguments against GWR's approach on the Anytime tickets and more generally.
Just to add I personally don't give a toss for GWR, who the forum recently helped beat down a massive claim to a much smaller one. They are claiming for other train companies and charging penalties they are not entitled to do in a civil case. And of course they can go and do one here. But you do also have to have a convincing and evidenced story for the ones they *can* get you for. You need to he absolutely across the facts and be truthful and a reliable witness, and understand a court does not suppose you are truthful because you say so. You need to evidence your claims.
anonymousdxb
Member
Hi everyone,
Thanks for all the advice.
I understand the concept of probabilities and judges in a civil action rather than a criminal. I did not mean to muddy the waters with my semi-apology, but as @WesternLancer said, I was trying to create a collaborative discussion. As many other threads state, both GWR and myself are incentivised to stay out of court, and at this stage, we are both negotiating out-of-court settlements and there is no judge yet. However, I am obviously hedging my bets somewhat because I would rather pay the claim than go to court, but I don't want to pay it without at least disputing some of the facts.
Everyone is right that the fact that I cannot produce the expired 16-17 railcard is an issue, but there is little else I can do on this. I don't know truthfully whether they held one or not, since my auntie is unable to produce any proof now that I've asked. However, I would rather pay the claim than throw my auntie and her family under the bus. (@AlterEgo people visit London and take trains from London sometimes without living there!).
My question is 1) can I give GWR other evidence, such as flights taken and photos which prove I was not able to take the disputed fares.
2) What are the ways in which I can reduce my liabilty e.g. jurisdiction, and claiming penalties, etc. ? @AlterEgo How did you manage to reduce your claim?
Thanks for all the advice.
I understand the concept of probabilities and judges in a civil action rather than a criminal. I did not mean to muddy the waters with my semi-apology, but as @WesternLancer said, I was trying to create a collaborative discussion. As many other threads state, both GWR and myself are incentivised to stay out of court, and at this stage, we are both negotiating out-of-court settlements and there is no judge yet. However, I am obviously hedging my bets somewhat because I would rather pay the claim than go to court, but I don't want to pay it without at least disputing some of the facts.
Everyone is right that the fact that I cannot produce the expired 16-17 railcard is an issue, but there is little else I can do on this. I don't know truthfully whether they held one or not, since my auntie is unable to produce any proof now that I've asked. However, I would rather pay the claim than throw my auntie and her family under the bus. (@AlterEgo people visit London and take trains from London sometimes without living there!).
My question is 1) can I give GWR other evidence, such as flights taken and photos which prove I was not able to take the disputed fares.
2) What are the ways in which I can reduce my liabilty e.g. jurisdiction, and claiming penalties, etc. ? @AlterEgo How did you manage to reduce your claim?
Egg Centric
Established Member
(Out of interest, as a trainee lawyer, if I understood you correctly - given this is civil court could it actually be "good for you" to go to court for "practice"? Or would you have to declare it to future regulators etc?)
anonymousdxb
Member
Haha I think the prevailing consensus is that lawyers should stay out of court for personal matters, especially regarding honesty and integrity....
That's partly why I am tempted to just pay it to make it go away. I feel emotionally drained by the whole thing and embarrassed to be in this mess. I so badly wanted to just resolve this issue when it came up, which is why I reached out to them in the first place to explain. I think the level of digging that could happen in court would make me nervous.
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anothertyke
Member
One category is exemplified in the Thread 'Urgent advice re a fine of £1800' In this case, from memory, the person was able to demonstrate that the company had conflated two cases and that he/she could not credibly have made some of the trips. I think this is the main category--- evidence that the company had got their spreadsheet or their facts wrong. Your airline tickets might possibly come in this category.
Jurisdiction-- no, the TOCs operate on behalf of each other, can't see a win there.
Admin costs-- not before you get to court and once you get there, if you lose, their reasonable costs may be higher.
Jurisdiction-- no, the TOCs operate on behalf of each other, can't see a win there.
Admin costs-- not before you get to court and once you get there, if you lose, their reasonable costs may be higher.
anonymousdxb
Member
so you see no way for me to reduce my claim amount? apart from emphasising the couple of tickets with my mum's railcard, and perhaps sending over some flight details?
Egg Centric
Established Member
I think taking a 30 000ft view if you're not both willing and able to backup the 16/17 year old stuff then you have to be aware how it might look to others and decide how you move forward taking that into account. I think you already get this given how strongly you're pushing back against challenges here to the veracity of your story. Bear in mind that (to the first approximation) we're on your side while a court ought to be neutral and GWR are of course on their own.
In the 90s it was fine for someone your age (or much older - see Peter Stringfellow and Helen Benoit for example) to have a 16 year old boy or girlfriend but these days that's verboten in the UK and it's intrinsically very unlikely to have such a friend at your age unless they are incredibly precocious. It is however very common to fare evade with a 16/17 year old railcard. The way your appeal email is written (sadly had you just never sent it likely nothing would have happened) just screams "I dunnit but you can't prove it lol". None of this means you did do it but what it does mean is that you're starting on the backfoot. Trust me (and everyone else!) as a partial* observer.
If you really want to maintain the story then explanations for all the journies would be useful. What was the 16 year old doing going from London to York and back again a few hours later? That's practically county lines
*as I said we're on your side. You can assume an impartial one will see things worse.
anonymousdxb
Member
No, I had purchased both tickets on my account and then screenshotted the railcard tickets and sent to them via airdrop, which they then used. But both sets of tickets were on my Trainline app which is how I had got confused.
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Good grief, they're like a brother! I am from an Indian background where it is quite normal for people who are not your blood relations to take on a familial/sibling role. He is basically my godmother/auntie's son! He's not a 'friend', he's like a nephew/cousin/little brother. Please don't make it something grim.I think taking a 30 000ft view if you're not both willing and able to backup the 16/17 year old stuff then you have to be aware how it might look to others and decide how you move forward taking that into account. I think you already get this given how strongly you're pushing back against challenges here to the veracity of your story. Bear in mind that (to the first approximation) we're on your side while a court ought to be neutral and GWR are of course on their own.
In the 90s it was fine for someone your age (or much older - see Peter Stringfellow and Helen Benoit for example) to have a 16 year old boy or girlfriend but these days that's verboten in the UK and it's intrinsically very unlikely to have such a friend at your age unless they are incredibly precocious. It is however very common to fare evade with a 16/17 year old railcard. The way your appeal email is written (sadly had you just never sent it likely nothing would have happened) just screams "I dunnit but you can't prove it lol". None of this means you did do it but what it does mean is that you're starting on the backfoot. Trust me (and everyone else!) as a partial* observer.
If you really want to maintain the story then explanations for all the journies would be useful. What was the 16 year old doing going from London to York and back again a few hours later? That's practically county lines
*as I said we're on your side. You can assume an impartial one will see things worse.
I definitely felt compelled to respond because it would have been much worse for me to just receive court summons. As I've said, I would still rather pay the claim than go to court.
At this stage, I haven't refused to locate a Railcard, I just told them that I had been unable to locate it, given it had only been a day. Regarding journeys, I'd have to ask, but I've gone to York for a day trip so don't see that as being unusual - I went much further than York when I was 17! I was interrailing in Europe and further afield!
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If you are reluctant to actually go to Court, you are reliant on GWR being reasonable in their negotiations. A couple of previous threads have suggested that their investigators/staff are willing to negotiate on factual matters (e.g. which journeys were made, or made by you) but are generally unwilling to negotiate on legal matters (e.g. whether the Anytime fare is lawfully due even if disproportionate to the original fare paid).
If you cannot produce the Railcard itself then a witness statement from the person who you are saying travelled, or their parent/guardian, will be better than nothing. I don't think it is much use saying that you don't want to throw them under the bus - you went to the effort of buying them the ticket, so I think the least they can do is to help you out here when you are facing a potential 4-figure liability.
You can send them any evidence you like, the question is whether they will accept it and reduce the amount they're asking for. As above, our (limited) experience of these civil claims is that factual matters can sometimes be conceded by GWR if there is sufficient evidence that the journey wan't made. So it is an approach that might be worth taking.
I would refer to this email I drafted up for someone in a similar case. Obviously not all of the same arguments will apply to your case, but it is worth double checking that the Anytime fares demanded are actually correct (i.e. they aren't numerically wrong or overcharging you when a cheaper route of fare was applicable).
If that 'sanity check' passes then it leaves the issues of:
- The lack of legal basis for recovering an admin fee. NB - the fact that the industry is changing the NRCoT later this month to add in a clause, condition 9.3, which (purports to) give them this right suggests that they know they don't have a legal basis for admin fees at the moment.
- The lack of legal basis for recovering fares on behalf of other TOCs, in the absence of evidence of authority to do so. This covers the majority of the journeys made, and a substantial proportion of the £1100 figure they claim you owe, so it is not a point I would give way on readily.
anonymousdxb
Member
Thanks so much @Watershed.
1. How do I check whether the anytime fares are correct? There are a few which are out of whack.
2. There has been conflicting advice on whether the admin fee is applicable on this forum - not sure what to make of this and whether to make this argument to them.
3. Ditto regarding GWR recovering fares for other TOCs - some say they are and others say they're not. How do I find this out and whether to make this argument. I noted that we had some success in the post you linked on these 2 points.
4. Would of course make the points regarding HRCoT as eloquently as you did in your draft email.
Dai Corner
Established Member
- Joined
- 20 Jul 2015
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- 6,990
Is a screenshot a valid ticket?
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