GWR operating short 'HSTGTi' sets (see diagrams section for workings)

[Bletchleyite]

Because of the wasted space, you'd need a 5 car Voyager to provide the capacity of a 4-car HST.

 

[brel york]

I don’t think the seating is moving

 

[rebmcr]

Well, if they can’t do 125mph with 4 coaches but can with 5, why not make them 5 coach sets?

Because that would impact their ability to accellerate like a DMU.

 

[50031]

Because that would impact their ability to accellerate like a DMU.

And 125mph is simply not available on the routes they will be used. Max 100 except the 110 section between Weston-Super-Mare and Bridgwater.

I wonder if someone knows what their max speed in service will be.. presumably at least 90?

 

[43096]

Because that would impact their ability to accellerate like a DMU.

It wouldn't.
Class 150 8.0hp/t
Class 158 9.3hp/t
HST 2+4 15.6hp/t
HST 2+5 13.9hp/t

So still well in excess of Sprinter performance and still up around Voyager level.

And for those saying 2+4 sets can't do 125mph, please can you quote an authoritative source, as Interfleet say otherwise.

 

[bonzawe]

And 125mph is simply not available on the routes they will be used. Max 100 except the 110 section between Weston-Super-Mare and Bridgwater.

I wonder if someone knows what their max speed in service will be.. presumably at least 90?

Do these restrictions only effect max speed or does it impact on the ability to exploit any differential speed limits. Are any of these dependent on improved braking performance?

 

[bastien]

It wouldn't.
Class 150 8.0hp/t
Class 158 9.3hp/t
HST 2+4 15.6hp/t
HST 2+5 13.9hp/t

So still well in excess of Sprinter performance and still up around Voyager level.

And for those saying 2+4 sets can't do 125mph, please can you quote an authoritative source, as Interfleet say otherwise.

The Sprinters are geared for 75 and 90mph respectively, though, unlike the HST.

 

[47802]

The Sprinters are geared for 75 and 90mph respectively, though, unlike the HST.

Well yes but the point is these are effectively an alternate for a 4 car 158's, and as such they don't need 5 coaches, they don't need to change the seats, they don't need a buffet car, they don't need 1st class and they don't need to do 125mph.

 

[Spartacus]

I wouldn't simply go on a hp/t figure as how it puts the power down alters things, and that only a small percentage of wheels will be driver, however when short HSTs have run before they do seem to have quite rapid acceleration. They will likely have longer station dwell times, so it'll be good to have some time in hand.

 

[47802]

I wouldn't simply go on a hp/t figure as how it puts the power down alters things, and that only a small percentage of wheels will be driver, however when short HSTs have run before they do seem to have quite rapid acceleration. They will likely have longer station dwell times, so it'll be good to have some time in hand.

Why will they have longer Dwell Times with the new Powered Doors you would expect them to be similar to an end doored sprinter

 

[Spartacus]

True enough.

 

[47802]

True enough.

I suppose you can argue that the TGS might take longer on a busy service with only having Passenger Doors at one end, but suspect it will be fairly marginal overall

 

[158747]

And for those saying 2+4 sets can't do 125mph, please can you quote an authoritative source, as Interfleet say otherwise.

2+5 sets are permitted to do 125 mph, but 2+4 or less are unable to as with the reduced number of coaches they do not have sufficient brake force.

 

[43096]

2+5 sets are permitted to do 125 mph, but 2+4 or less are unable to as with the reduced number of coaches they do not have sufficient brake force.

Just repeating things parrot fashion doesn't necessarily make them correct. I asked for an authoritative source. As I said, Interfleet (now SNC-Lavalin) - who should know - say otherwise.

 

[brel york]

Big push to get first rake ready for end of month

 

[jimm]

Just repeating things parrot fashion doesn't necessarily make them correct. I asked for an authoritative source. As I said, Interfleet (now SNC-Lavalin) - who should know - say otherwise.

Why does this matter? The four-car sets with GWR and Scotrail won't be going anywhere near any 125mph-passed track in the course of their regular duties.

 

[43096]

List of returning short hst

A (somewhat belated) thanks for that. Do you have anything similar for which vehicles are involved for the ScotRail conversions?

 

[brel york]

You want the numbers that the rakes will go out in ,

 

[D2007wsm]

To match the layout of the 158s which have more tables and may still appear on the route. 150/2s or 153s which appear currently also have more tables than these. It is only the 150/1s wgich dont. So yes a sprinter replacement, but shouldnt the seating and layou sort of add up?

The High Density layout was introduced to provide extra seats between Bristol etc. and London. Even the current Low Density layout would be OK, but the mix of passengers may be different on these services.

I only said it's a 'shame' these won't have a buffet, but would be a good selling point for the services considering some may offer long distance offering proper catering.

 

[BlueGrey]

Just repeating things parrot fashion doesn't necessarily make them correct. I asked for an authoritative source. As I said, Interfleet (now SNC-Lavalin) - who should know - say otherwise.

Hi 43096,

I’m afraid I can’t give you an authoritative source however I think what Interfleet says is correct. Any Hst formation i.e. 2 + 9, 2 + 7, 2 + 4 or even 2 power cars back to back are allowed to operate at 125 mph. The confusion had arisen because individual TOCs own working instructions override this and introduce speed restrictions for short formed sets due to the reduced braking force.

 

[507021]

I saw something about these sets being designated as Class 255, is this correct?

 

[Ash Bridge]

I saw something about these sets being designated as Class 255, is this correct?

Wasn't that the intended designation for the Virgin XC Challenger 2+5 sets?

 

[jopsuk]

where did you see that? I wouldn't expect so, although that designation was proposed for the Virgin Cross Country short HST Challenger sets

 

[mullac30]

I saw something about these sets being designated as Class 255, is this correct?

The Wikipedia page does mention at the bottom that the shortened GWR sets will be designated as Class 255, but it doesn't cite any sources.
I wonder if the Scotrail sets will also be redesignated if this is true?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Classes_253,_254_and_255#Class_255_in_2017

 

[brel york]

Some of ScotRail vehicles are taking numbers in the 48000 range -APT numbers !

 

[507021]

Wasn't that the intended designation for the Virgin XC Challenger 2+5 sets?

I think so.

where did you see that? I wouldn't expect so, although that designation was proposed for the Virgin Cross Country short HST Challenger sets

To be fair, as mullac30 said, it was on Wikipedia article about the Class 43s rather than somewhere reputable. I just thought I'd ask about it as for once it did sound remotely feasible (unlike some of the total and utter garbage I've seen on published on there before).

 

[Class465fan]

Why is GWR shortening the HST sets to 2+5? Sounds like a dumb plan to me, and wouldn't that cause overcrowding problems?

 

[507021]

Why is GWR shortening the HST sets to 2+5? Sounds like a dumb plan to me, and wouldn't that cause overcrowding problems?

The short Class 43 sets are being kept in addition to the new A-Trains and will be deployed on local services, as far as I'm aware they aren't going to be used on intercity services like they are at the moment.

 

[Class465fan]

Fair enough.

 

[43096]

Hi 43096,

I’m afraid I can’t give you an authoritative source however I think what Interfleet says is correct. Any Hst formation i.e. 2 + 9, 2 + 7, 2 + 4 or even 2 power cars back to back are allowed to operate at 125 mph. The confusion had arisen because individual TOCs own working instructions override this and introduce speed restrictions for short formed sets due to the reduced braking force.

Thanks, that makes sense. As has been said it is a theoretical issue as the sets aren't planned for use on 125mph lines.