GWR daily cancellations

[Goldfish62]

Carnival related trespass and something thrown onto the OLE.

So the usual that happens every year with the carnival!

 

[geoffk]

RTT is only showing eight GWR cancellations at Paddington all day!

 

[Kite159]

RTT is only showing eight GWR cancellations at Paddington all day!

Have you clicked the "CAN" button to show all the planned cancellations?

 

[Horizon22]

So the usual that happens every year with the carnival!

Pretty much!

 

[800301]

When is this absurd situation, whereby Sunday service depends on how many staff volunteer to do overtime, going to be sorted out? Is there any other seven day industry that relies on voluntary overtime for standard operational days?

Your ‘absurd situation’ has actually been the case for many many years and has been well documented before whenever there is a bad spell at all the TOC’s that have it and yet the DfT hasn’t learnt that if they want people to work a day they are entitled to have off, they might as well incentivise it.

While at GWR new ‘GWR’ drivers have committed Sundays of which they can still ask to be made not available if they don’t want to work it and providing there is cover it’s not an issue, the ‘GWR’ drivers do not sign all the of the HSS routes and therefor aren’t always able to help the situation

It is also not solely to do with drivers, train managers and lead hosts are also quite sparse on weekends and while there maybe staff to run a service part of the way, the next/return working needs to be thought of as you can’t just have sets parked up all over the place with no one to take them anywhere

 

[dk1]

With something like 40% of train drivers nationally due to retire in the next decade, it can only get worse, can't it?

Depends on the operator. Here at GA we are well ahead of the game and have been continually even through the pandemic. Our only issue is on the West where we haemorrhage drivers to GN who pay better which is obvious.

 

[Horizon22]

I've been actively telling people to avoid GWR on Sundays for some time now, especially during the summer.

 

[GoneSouth]

That's good to know, thank you. Although seems a bit unfair if different employees at the same company are on different conditions?

That’s the market! The only thing that matters is do you want the job on the new rate/terms or don’t you. If not, plenty of others do.

 

[43066]

When is this absurd situation, whereby Sunday service depends on how many staff volunteer to do overtime, going to be sorted out? Is there any other seven day industry that relies on voluntary overtime for standard operational days?

Almost every seven day industry, NHS and the airline industry for two (and the NHS shuts many functions down at weekends as the consultants like Monday to Friday). The difference is the other industries know to incentivise their staff properly.

Depends on the operator. Here at GA we are well ahead of the game and have been continually even through the pandemic. Our only issue is on the West where we haemorrhage drivers to GN who pay better which is obvious.

Indeed. Not too bad where I am either, despite Sundays being outside for (most) guards.

GA will likely haemorrhage drivers in London once the back pay arrives, as their pay is now well off the pace. They pay similar to Southeastern and the two are now by far and away the lowest payers in London - both AIUI will be only just over £60k after the pay deal. I realise that will go a lot further on other parts of the network of course.

It’s interesting that both GA and SE have few problems resourcing Sundays! TL are probably the worst for it, with GWR at least hitherto not seeming to have many problems.

 

[43096]

Although seems a bit unfair if different employees at the same company are on different conditions?

Why? It’s perfectly normal for different people to have different T&Cs.

What astonishes me is that both this government and the last one have flunked the opportunity for reform.

 

[GoneSouth]

All new recruits have that on GWR….

How long do we think it will take to get all GWR crew on terms that include Sundays, presumably approx 40 years if somebody sticks around for their whole working life

 

[dk1]

How long do we think it will take to get all GWR crew on terms that include Sundays, presumably approx 40 years if somebody sticks around for their whole working life

Probably that unless an unbelievably good pay and conditions offer is put forward.

 

[vicbury]

Your ‘absurd situation’ has actually been the case for many many years and has been well documented before whenever there is a bad spell at all the TOC’s that have it and yet the DfT hasn’t learnt that if they want people to work a day they are entitled to have off, they might as well incentivise it.

While at GWR new ‘GWR’ drivers have committed Sundays of which they can still ask to be made not available if they don’t want to work it and providing there is cover it’s not an issue, the ‘GWR’ drivers do not sign all the of the HSS routes and therefor aren’t always able to help the situation

It is also not solely to do with drivers, train managers and lead hosts are also quite sparse on weekends and while there maybe staff to run a service part of the way, the next/return working needs to be thought of as you can’t just have sets parked up all over the place with no one to take them anywhere

I think you did a good job of summing up why it is an absurd situation!

Almost every seven day industry, NHS and the airline industry for two (and the NHS shuts many functions down at weekends as the consultants like Monday to Friday). The difference is the other industries know to incentivise their staff properly.

I'm not sure that's correct, in the majority of retail and hospitality jobs, Sundays are not optional, and the NHS in recent years has been shedding staff not incentivising them.

 

[Horizon22]

I think you did a good job of summing up why it is an absurd situation!

It might be, but until someone throws a lot of money at the situation, it isn't going away.

A 7-day working week is in place at many TOCs for many roles and there are no issues.

 

[contrex]

Quite! Maybe an example for the thread about information systems ‘lieing’.

Lieing down? For a rest?

 

[geoffk]

Have you clicked the "CAN" button to show all the planned cancellations?

I have now. Thanks. A lot more CAN this evening but that's overhead line problems.

 

[Towers]

All new recruits have that on GWR….

Only on the driver side, no such agreement exists or is on the horizon yet for guards (unless the DfT are plotting something in the current pay talks!).

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Even for the ex-LTV and west drivers, Sundays are only ‘committed’. They’re not properly inside the week. So if it falls next to a week of annual leave they can throw it in too. Obviously in August more people are on leave and fewer people want to volunteer to work.

As I understand it, some ‘GWR’ drivers don’t work any Sundays because they never did in the past and so they’re allowed to continue that. Others will say they’re not coming in because it’s forced overtime, and nothing is done about that either, it can’t because it’s overtime.

Add to that the fact until the end of July a Sunday was paid about the same as rest day work. But to incentivise RDW GWR nearly doubled what they’ll pay for a RDW but nothing extra for a Sunday. So drivers will work a Tuesday instead of a Sunday because they’ll get a lot more money and not have to give up a weekend day.

 

[GoneSouth]

Only on the driver side, no such agreement exists or is on the horizon yet for guards (unless the DfT are plotting something in the current pay talks!).

Plotting? Not the best word as it makes it sound like something nefarious is going on. If you mean the DfT are looking at options to make a broken industry function on 7 days for the benefit of its customers, then I’d call that an plan, an action plan, an improvement plan etc, setting out something which will improve a desperately poor situation.

 

[Taunton]

When is this absurd situation, whereby Sunday service depends on how many staff volunteer to do overtime, going to be sorted out? Is there any other seven day industry that relies on voluntary overtime for standard operational days?

Presumably this is nothing new, and this approach to Sunday work has applied since time immemorial.

So how did the railway used to run the complete published service on Sundays. In fact on bank holiday weekends they used to run Sunday extras. What changed? And how does just about every other business (airlines, retail, etc) manage to operate what they plan on Sundays. Just not the railway.

 

[D6130]

Possibly because of the fact that in pre-privatisation days the salaries for rail staff were comparatively poor and most train crew relied on overtime and Sunday working to top-up their wages and achieve a moderately decent standard of living. Privatisation changed that because it created a competitive market among the different TOCs and FOCs for the finite number of available train crew - especially drivers - and as a result, salaries rocketed skywards. When the railways were privatised in the mid-1990s my basic driver's salary was around £11,000 per year. Now some drivers are earning close to £70,000 per year....which gives little incentive to work overtime or Sundays unless you have a lot of children, or massive debts.

 

[Harpo]

In the railway of the past almost no Sunday turn went uncovered but then basic pay was very low so 16 hours pay for an 8 hour Sunday was a coveted extra that was shared out fairly at most workplaces by most grades.

Removing/reducing enhancements on a (now) well paid role, then leaving Sundays ‘outside’ and killing off goodwill by trying to strip out hard earned T&Cs for free has had inevitable consequences.

 

[DMckduck]

When is this absurd situation, whereby Sunday service depends on how many staff volunteer to do overtime, going to be sorted out? Is there any other seven day industry that relies on voluntary overtime for standard operational days?

Have a word with whoever was in charge of the great western Post BR to Pre covid.

 

[Horizon22]

Have a word with whoever was in charge of the great western Post BR to Pre covid.

In reality it’s also every iteration of the DfT / government who have been happy with the status quo and the occasional “bad” Sunday rather than fronting up the cost to put Sunday into the working week.

Not doing so has been one of the largest missteps in T&C negotiations over the past 20-30 years - for those where it is not included - and at TOCs like GWR and Northern such widespread Sunday cancellations at peak times are the result.

 

[PLY2AYS]

The entire driver management situation at GWR is ludicrous.

I know for a fact they have tens of GWR drivers, all mainline qualified at various depots, chomping at the bit to do mainline driving as they were recruited to do, but instead they’re keeping them in depot links because they don’t want to pay them a full rate.

The amount of cancelled services on that list that could have been avoided by implementing the drivers I mentioned (majority recruited and trained 2019-2022) is outrageous.

 

[43066]

I'm not sure that's correct, in the majority of retail and hospitality jobs, Sundays are not optional, and the NHS in recent years has been shedding staff not incentivising them.

But they are still examples industries that use overtime to cover work on standard working days (including Sundays), so it’s by no means uncommon. Just as in the railway industry, it tends to be harder to find people to work on Sundays, and of course the railway industry has spent decades recruiting people with Sundays specifically outside their contracts to save money.

Why? It’s perfectly normal for different people to have different T&Cs.

What astonishes me is that both this government and the last one have flunked the opportunity for reform.

Reform in the railway industry has happened for decades (including Sundays brought into the week), but it is achieved by consensus and negotiation. The opposite approach has been tried by the last government and they indeed achieved precisely nothing other than huge disruption and massive cost to the wider economy.

The current government is resetting the relationship and that will enable reforms to be negotiated going forward where it’s truly necessary and beneficial, but not where “reform” is a euphemism for blackmailing staff into accepting worse Ts and Cs during a cost or living crisis, attacking unions to score political points etc.

Possibly because of the fact that in pre-privatisation days the salaries for rail staff were comparatively poor and most train crew relied on overtime and Sunday working to top-up their wages and achieve a moderately decent standard of living. Privatisation changed that because it created a competitive market among the different TOCs and FOCs for the finite number of available train crew - especially drivers - and as a result, salaries rocketed skywards. When the railways were privatised in the mid-1990s my basic driver's salary was around £11,000 per year. Now some drivers are earning close to £70,000 per year....which gives little incentive to work overtime or Sundays unless you have a lot of children, or massive debts.

I’m not sure higher pay in and of itself makes a difference as people simply adjust to a higher income and take on correspondingly higher outgoings. Someone on any given salary will likely have commensurate mortgage, car payments etc. So they may still value overtime to pay for holidays, treats etc. Plus the profile of drivers has changed, many will have earned similar amounts or more in other roles prior to joining the industry, so may already have large outgoings - not everyone takes a huge pay rise when they join the grade.

£70k base salary is also hardly a fortune these days, especially in London and the south east, and especially for those with families, who are sole earners etc. There are drivers who regularly do £20-£30k extra in overtime to pay for nice cars etc. The mistake is becoming completely reliant on it - some are, but a minority.

Only on the driver side, no such agreement exists or is on the horizon yet for guards (unless the DfT are plotting something in the current pay talks!).

If drivers have Sundays inside I can see how guards on GWR would want Sundays inside the week, rather than committed Sundays.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The entire driver management situation at GWR is ludicrous.

I know for a fact they have tens of GWR drivers, all mainline qualified at various depots, chomping at the bit to do mainline driving as they were recruited to do, but instead they’re keeping them in depot links because they don’t want to pay them a full rate.

The amount of cancelled services on that list that could have been avoided by implementing the drivers I mentioned (majority recruited and trained 2019-2022) is outrageous.

So who then covers the depot driving?
Trains aren’t driven round depots for fun but for maintenance requirements.

Without a maintained train fleet you have cancellations…

 

[43066]

So who then covers the depot driving?
Trains aren’t driven round depots for fun but for maintenance requirements.

Without a maintained train fleet you have cancellations…

Depot drivers where I am at least also have to go through a mainline driving course (albeit AIUI with a few bits removed), so aren’t much different to off the street trainees in that respect.

 

[geoffk]

In the railway of the past almost no Sunday turn went uncovered but then basic pay was very low so 16 hours pay for an 8 hour Sunday was a coveted extra that was shared out fairly at most workplaces by most grades.

Removing/reducing enhancements on a (now) well paid role, then leaving Sundays ‘outside’ and killing off goodwill by trying to strip out hard earned T&Cs for free has had inevitable consequences.

Also most of the economy used to shut down on a Sunday. Shops were closed and there was no professional football played until 1974, for example. So demand for Sunday rail travel was correspondingly low and some lines had no service at all.

 

[DMckduck]

The current government is resetting the relationship and that will enable reforms to be negotiated going forward where it’s truly necessary and beneficial, but not where “reform” is a euphemism for blackmailing staff into accepting worse Ts and Cs during a cost or living crisis, attacking unions to score political points etetc.

This could change very quickly if the RMT don't get what they rightly feel entitled to. Could be a very different story in a couple weeks if both the TOC and NR don't have deals.