GWR Class 800

[Marlo36]

I appreciate that the further west you go the electrification becomes less relevant, as of course down the Thames Valley electric running for local trains has become the norm with the electrostars (well assuming we don't end up losing some of them) But down here it's almost a completely different railway and what we should have had, what 20/30 years ago. I don't appreciate trains with electric capability belching out their dirty diesel fumes unnecessarily in our urbanised environment. I'm not so sure about keeping perfect time under diesel mode, that's not the impression I've been left with as a passenger but obviously bow to anyone with operational knowledge.

Yes, electrification would be far too dangerous down in the Southwest especially around Teignmouth & Dawlish.Sea water &

 

[Marlo36]

The prices aren`t much different in there I`m afraid.

But at leas I would get a bigger selection to choose from.

 

[Marlo36]

I'd leave the station if I were you. As an example, Upper Crust (not a good marker of low prices I admit) serve the same thing on Paddington concourse for £9 as they do on Liverpool Street concourse for £7.50 and even the latter is vastly more than an out-of-station equivalent. I don't know if the rent is higher at Paddington or what but I remember having the same experience the last time as well - food there is astonishingly expensive.

Far cheaper in Sainsbury's . B.L.T x2 2.25 ( GBP) & egg & cress x2 1.00

 

[Grumbler]

They can be a nightmare as they lock themselves out very easily; mostly they’re quite simple to reset, I managed to get four working again the other day. Sadly not many TMs know how to/ can be bothered to fix them

The trains should not be in service without working lavatories. People who rely on working facilities being available will have "accidents" which will be unpleasant for everybody and an expensive clean-up and may well lead to lawsuits.

 

[JamesT]

That might be true on the line to Penzance where, west of Exeter, the line speed is fairly low and the stops closer together. There is no way that a diesel IET can match an HST from Reading to Swindon or Swindon to Bristol Parkway.

Yesterday I had a textbook HST run from Paddington to Swindon where I dropped back onto the 20:15 Swansea. The HST got to Swindon in 56 minutes, the pair of 800s took 62 minutes with the same stopping pattern. I strongly suspect they were running on diesel. Both trains were very busy, the HST was rammed to Reading and still full and standing to Didcot. I expect the 20:15 was equally busy for the first part of the journey but there was no clear advantage in terms of station dwell times. No time was made up at any point on the journey to Cardiff.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C54306/2018/12/20/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C58057/2018/12/20/advanced

.

Errm, you suspect they were running on diesel and this is the cause of the 800s running slower? That seems a bit of a leap. How do you know there wasn’t something ahead that got in the way of 800s? Without being at the pointy end, there’s no way of knowing if the train can’t go any faster, or the driver is not using all the available power for some reason.

 

[jayah]

And as @JN114 said, very soon there will (hopefully!) be no need for them to match HST performance in diesel mode on the stretches you've mentioned.

They don't seem to have a problem as there is. The last example seems to be clear evidence that under certain conditions (802?) they comfortably beat a HST time unlike the actual HSTs which invariably clocked up delays to slam doors.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57477/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57475/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57472/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57471/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57465/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57457/2018/12/22/advanced

 

[Wychwood93]

They don't seem to have a problem as there is. The last example seems to be clear evidence that under certain conditions (802?) they comfortably beat a HST time unlike the actual HSTs which invariably clocked up delays to slam doors.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57477/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57475/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57472/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57471/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57465/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57457/2018/12/22/advanced

You have no evidence with regard to slam doors - given that with electric on the down and up to Swindon the IET dwell times are even longer than the HSTs as they can get there quicker! I assume the above trains - the last yet to get to PAD - are all 800's? The schedules are a tad padded - to not make it into PAD on time with electric from Swindon would be a dereliction of duty, barring late stuff ahead etc. As has been discussed (to death) many times before - an IET (800) on diesel is not on par with an HST - I have yet to see enough data on the 802's, with more 'diesel grunt', to make a true comparison. I like them both and look forward to the New Year and electric to Parkway - and GWR having the ability to do panto work at Stoke Gifford as well as North Pole - the restrictions with the latter I was unaware of until a few posts above. Which probably explains a few runs that I have had. I am sure that it will come together in the end.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, electrification would be far too dangerous down in the Southwest especially around Teignmouth & Dawlish.Sea water &

Somebody best tell Scotrail to withdraw their EMU services and Network Rail Scotland to take these wires down then!

(Image shows a 380 getting drenched by waves at Saltcoats)

 

[samuelmorris]

That's an impressive shot - but I can only see it in email, I've lost the ability to see any images/attachments etc. since the forum upgrade - sorry if this is a bit of a thread hijack, but where would I go about re-enabling that?

 

[jayah]

You have no evidence with regard to slam doors - given that with electric on the down and up to Swindon the IET dwell times are even longer than the HSTs as they can get there quicker! I assume the above trains - the last yet to get to PAD - are all 800's? The schedules are a tad padded - to not make it into PAD on time with electric from Swindon would be a dereliction of duty, barring late stuff ahead etc. As has been discussed (to death) many times before - an IET (800) on diesel is not on par with an HST - I have yet to see enough data on the 802's, with more 'diesel grunt', to make a true comparison. I like them both and look forward to the New Year and electric to Parkway - and GWR having the ability to do panto work at Stoke Gifford as well as North Pole - the restrictions with the latter I was unaware of until a few posts above. Which probably explains a few runs that I have had. I am sure that it will come together in the end.

The constant accumulation of delays to HSTs going overtime at stations has been seen for years.

When IETs run late you can see how quickly they can get out of platforms and it is far quicker than a HST.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57469/2018/12/22/advanced

 

[Wychwood93]

The constant accumulation of delays to HSTs going overtime at stations has been seen for years.

When IETs run late you can see how quickly they can get out of platforms and it is far quicker than a HST.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57469/2018/12/22/advanced

Schedules have been slack for years - let's be honest! Even I would agree that dwell times are somewhat longer than they should be for HSTs. On the run that you highlight there are 7 minutes recovery from Swindon to Paddington - assuming that the service was an 800, then that plus the electric operation and HST timings would see the result as no real issue. A net gain of four minutes. No real comparison. Yes, on diesel, they are quicker to start - like the 444/450's down here (I know - third rail - but modern kit) - zero to about 40 ish at 1 mph/sec - after that they drift away (450's better - more power/weight) - gain a few seconds and then, comp to HST, lose it once the HST is in it's stride. I welcome the forthcoming electrification to Stoke Gifford - in actual operation - so that the pantograph servicing can be done there and not solely at North Pole. Diesel only running should be reduced. All I, and many of us, want after that is to have the timings actually tweaked - very little chance before December?

 

[Bikeman78]

They don't seem to have a problem as there is. The last example seems to be clear evidence that under certain conditions (802?) they comfortably beat a HST time unlike the actual HSTs which invariably clocked up delays to slam doors.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57477/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57475/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57472/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57471/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57465/2018/12/22/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57457/2018/12/22/advanced

The 11:29 from Swansea is an HST. I can remember when they departed from Swansea at xx:32 but still departed Cardiff at xx:25. It will be interesting to see if they tighten up the schedules again.

 

[Bikeman78]

Errm, you suspect they were running on diesel and this is the cause of the 800s running slower? That seems a bit of a leap. How do you know there wasn’t something ahead that got in the way of 800s? Without being at the pointy end, there’s no way of knowing if the train can’t go any faster, or the driver is not using all the available power for some reason.

Nothing obvious on opentraintimes and nothing arrived at Swindon close in front. I noticed the engines on the Worcester train start up in the platform but I didn't notice that on the Swansea train so they were probably already running.

 

[broadgage]

I agree that the performance of the IETs when under diesel power, at least broadly comparable to an HST and often better. Under electric power it is significantly better.
My objections to them are not due to performance, but to the internal design, facilities and fit out.

I will let others argue over seconds or even whole minutes gained or lost under different conditions, by HSTs versus IETs. My concerns are more about what feels like a local, or at best, a regional DMU and not an inter-city service, rather than about the possibility of arriving marginally quicker.

 

[cactustwirly]

I agree that the performance of the IETs when under diesel power, at least broadly comparable to an HST and often better. Under electric power it is significantly better.
My objections to them are not due to performance, but to the internal design, facilities and fit out.

I will let others argue over seconds or even whole minutes gained or lost under different conditions, by HSTs versus IETs. My concerns are more about what feels like a local, or at best, a regional DMU and not an inter-city service, rather than about the possibility of arriving marginally quicker.

Hmm? You've got some funny ideas about regional trains!
The design of the interior is an intercity train, but I wish they'd chosen better seats, and built them properly (the build quality is pretty poor!)

 

[spark001uk]

They can be a nightmare as they lock themselves out very easily; mostly they’re quite simple to reset, I managed to get four working again the other day. Sadly not many TMs know how to/ can be bothered to fix them

I was only saying to my mate the other day while we were travelling stood by one of the disabled toilets (5 car, no seats), it was locking itself out after every use, and whenever we hit a bend it came back into operation! My guess is wash basin water level was just on the min limit? If that locks them out that is. We also joked about how worn the manual override switch looked already.

 

[wils180]

I was only saying to my mate the other day while we were travelling stood by one of the disabled toilets (5 car, no seats), it was locking itself out after every use, and whenever we hit a bend it came back into operation! My guess is wash basin water level was just on the min limit? If that locks them out that is. We also joked about how worn the manual override switch looked already.

According to a fitter it’s more to do with the big swooping door coming off, and then going back on the runners. They’re far too sensitive - If it’s locking out just due to the door (as opposed to flush not working etc) generally if you just shove it closed it fixes itself- give it a try next time and receive a singular bonus nectar point!*

*T&Cs apply

 

[physics34]

The trains should not be in service without working lavatories. People who rely on working facilities being available will have "accidents" which will be unpleasant for everybody and an expensive clean-up and may well lead to lawsuits.

exactly.. rubbish considering there were two toilets per coach on mk3s. Another reduction in the passenger experience.

 

[jimm]

Schedules have been slack for years - let's be honest! Even I would agree that dwell times are somewhat longer than they should be for HSTs. On the run that you highlight there are 7 minutes recovery from Swindon to Paddington - assuming that the service was an 800, then that plus the electric operation and HST timings would see the result as no real issue. A net gain of four minutes. No real comparison. Yes, on diesel, they are quicker to start - like the 444/450's down here (I know - third rail - but modern kit) - zero to about 40 ish at 1 mph/sec - after that they drift away (450's better - more power/weight) - gain a few seconds and then, comp to HST, lose it once the HST is in it's stride. I welcome the forthcoming electrification to Stoke Gifford - in actual operation - so that the pantograph servicing can be done there and not solely at North Pole. Diesel only running should be reduced. All I, and many of us, want after that is to have the timings actually tweaked - very little chance before December?

The whole point of the new timetable is to take best advantage of the performance of the new trains. With all the other freight and passenger services that GWR trains interact with in various places, it has to be the full package. It needs a bit more than tweaks to get robust paths through places like Reading, Didcot, the junctions around Bristol Parkway and Cardiff.

Most of what has been said back up the thread about station dwell times for IETs compared with HSTs was not about locations with dispatchers. It was about the places where the train manager was the only person around to make sure that HST doors were shut before restarting the train - an extra minute at each stop could build up into a big delay by the end of a journey on some routes. The improvement since IETs took over in places like the Cotswold Line is clear - but the time penalty imposed by slam doors was obvious for years when dwell times were compared to the Turbos and 180s that shared the route.

exactly.. rubbish considering there were two toilets per coach on mk3s. Another reduction in the passenger experience.

Well we've been having a reduced experience on express trains for a very long time then - since Mk4s first entered service in 1989, to be followed by Pendolinos and 22x sets. From what has been said above, it sounds as though most issues with IET toilets can be dealt with by some work at the depots and increased staff familiarity with what to do.

 

[MatthewRead]

Yes, electrification would be far too dangerous down in the Southwest especially around Teignmouth & Dawlish.Sea water &

But the Ayshire Coast line is electric and that is like the sea wall in Devon so I don't see any danger in electrifying it.

 

[Bikeman78]

exactly.. rubbish considering there were two toilets per coach on mk3s. Another reduction in the passenger experience.

In fact the number of toilets on IETs is good by modern standards, five on a five car set and 10 on a nine car set. The Northern 333s only have one per four car set. On my recent trip to Leeds I found two of them with the toilet out of use. Ironically every Pacer toilet I used worked perfectly; flush worked, soap available and tap produced warm water.

 

[jayah]

I was only saying to my mate the other day while we were travelling stood by one of the disabled toilets (5 car, no seats), it was locking itself out after every use, and whenever we hit a bend it came back into operation! My guess is wash basin water level was just on the min limit? If that locks them out that is. We also joked about how worn the manual override switch looked already.

Has anyone yet designed an accessible toilet that works?

The regular ones on IET are well built. My only gripe being the narrow sink which tends to result in lots of water on the floor.

 

[jayah]

Schedules have been slack for years - let's be honest! Even I would agree that dwell times are somewhat longer than they should be for HSTs. On the run that you highlight there are 7 minutes recovery from Swindon to Paddington - assuming that the service was an 800, then that plus the electric operation and HST timings would see the result as no real issue. A net gain of four minutes. No real comparison. Yes, on diesel, they are quicker to start - like the 444/450's down here (I know - third rail - but modern kit) - zero to about 40 ish at 1 mph/sec - after that they drift away (450's better - more power/weight) - gain a few seconds and then, comp to HST, lose it once the HST is in it's stride. I welcome the forthcoming electrification to Stoke Gifford - in actual operation - so that the pantograph servicing can be done there and not solely at North Pole. Diesel only running should be reduced. All I, and many of us, want after that is to have the timings actually tweaked - very little chance before December?

Schedules aren't slack in that HSTs routinely fail to achieve them. SDO and CDL require more station time but that doesn't make the times slack.

There are ways of getting 25KV into the Swansea depot without electrification through from London.

 

[D.K.TAYLOR]

The trains should not be in service without working lavatories. People who rely on working facilities being available will have "accidents" which will be unpleasant for everybody and an expensive clean-up and may well lead to lawsuits.

Afraid the last 3 800s l have been on only one toilet out of the lot not swishing about with full and smelling on the bowl

 

[PHILIPE]

800015 working 1400 Cardiff Cen to Taunton and 1608 Taunton to Cardiff Cen today, replacing 150002 in the diagram due to traincrew problems. By this, I should assume that the shortage is no Regional crew member available and being covered by a HSS driver

 

[swtandgw]

Yes, electrification would be far too dangerous down in the Southwest especially around Teignmouth & Dawlish.Sea water &

It's not impossible. The Ayrshire Coast Line on the Saltcoats section is electrified along the sea wall, but it necessitated more substantial OHLE that could withstand seawater, so the possibility is still there.

The regular ones on IET are well built. My only gripe being the narrow sink which tends to result in lots of water on the floor.

I didn't like how shallow the sink was, and the hand dryers were surprisingly not powerful enough, yet the older Class 390s have turbojet dryers, so why Hitachi decided that the lavatories should have wheezy hand dryers, I'll never know.

 

[samuelmorris]

As much as I mention 395s' superiority over 800s for travelling experience, the 395 toilets have weedy hand dryers too. Not as bad as the ones in older stock as they do eventually dry your hands, but usually I'm mindful of the fact that there's probably someone else waiting, so I don't leave it the full 2 minutes it requires to dry your hands fully with them.

 

[swtandgw]

As much as I mention 395s' superiority over 800s for travelling experience, the 395 toilets have weedy hand dryers too. Not as bad as the ones in older stock as they do eventually dry your hands, but usually I'm mindful of the fact that there's probably someone else waiting, so I don't leave it the full 2 minutes it requires to dry your hands fully with them.

I've had worse on the Turbos, though mind you, it was on the units that have yet to receive PRM-TSI compliant lavatories.

 

[47271]

Ugh, train handdryers generally are hopeless. I had a rant on another thread recently about using one on a Transpennine 350, which otherwise must be the closest to total German smooth running efficiency that we have on the network. You would think that with 25kV to play with they could run a bit faster. Only joking...

So whatever the sins of the IET, at least their dryers are no better or worse than anyone else's.

 

[swtandgw]

Ugh, train handdryers generally are hopeless. I had a rant on another thread recently about using one on a Transpennine 350, which otherwise must be the closest to total German smooth running efficiency that we have on the network. You would think that with 25kV to play with they could run a bit faster. Only joking...

So whatever the sins of the IET, at least their dryers are no better or worse than anyone else's.

I was very surprised as I thought that all new builds would have turbojet dryers by now.