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GWR Class 800

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Phil G

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Well on my first 802 journey, must say they ate better than 800s. First time for me on 07:00 Paddington to Bristol TN. Nice shiny green paint job instead of dull vinyls, much better seat fabric, acceleration is so much better, doesn't cut off once doing about 40 but just keeps on going (in diesel). Think much less criticism if 800s had been like this.
 
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SamYeager

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Track Circuit failure ahead of the train in the Acton West area, causing signal to revert from Green to Danger in front of the train, train passed the signal at danger as a result.

After such an event the on-train safety systems take a few minutes to recover; driver is checked with to see if they’re happy to continue or need a moment to collect themselves etc. 10-15 minutes to get on the move again is wholly not unreasonable.
Do on-train safety systems on all trains have this issue or is this something exclusive to the 80x series?
 
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Do on-train safety systems on all trains have this issue or is this something exclusive to the 80x series?
If it was ATP or TPWS Gen 4 (80x & 387) that brought the train to a stand after the SPAD, then they would take a minute to reset to allow brake release. This time is probably negligible compared to the Driver ringing the signaller and his Control, the situation being assessed - genuine SPAD or track circuit blip and the Driver having a phone duty of care check, before being met at his next stop.
 

Goldfish62

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Yes, there was definitely more padding and didn't notice any discomfort at all.

Just the lights to dim a bit now and it's going in the right direction.

Unfortunately the 800 I'm on now back to London has the original concrete seating.
All we need now is a buffet counter to replace the trolley. ;)
 

Reliablebeam

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They seem to keep perfect time under diesel so does it particularly matter? Personally I can't tell if it is diesel or not .

It would be nice to use the wires where they exist but the GW electrification west of Didcot has become pretty irrelevant other than closing the line for months on end.

I appreciate that the further west you go the electrification becomes less relevant, as of course down the Thames Valley electric running for local trains has become the norm with the electrostars (well assuming we don't end up losing some of them) But down here it's almost a completely different railway and what we should have had, what 20/30 years ago. I don't appreciate trains with electric capability belching out their dirty diesel fumes unnecessarily in our urbanised environment. I'm not so sure about keeping perfect time under diesel mode, that's not the impression I've been left with as a passenger but obviously bow to anyone with operational knowledge.
 

samuelmorris

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I appreciate that the further west you go the electrification becomes less relevant, as of course down the Thames Valley electric running for local trains has become the norm with the electrostars (well assuming we don't end up losing some of them) But down here it's almost a completely different railway and what we should have had, what 20/30 years ago. I don't appreciate trains with electric capability belching out their dirty diesel fumes unnecessarily in our urbanised environment. I'm not so sure about keeping perfect time under diesel mode, that's not the impression I've been left with as a passenger but obviously bow to anyone with operational knowledge.
Yeah I disagree with the perfect time on diesel comment. I think 'good enough in most but not all cases' is probably closer to the mark. Generally speaking, due to allowances in various places, with a clear run 800s on diesel that should be on electric can match the timetable but that's in much the same way that on electric they would make up time / arrive early. That diesel mode offers sufficient performance to match the timetable exactly east of Didcot I think has been soundly debunked. Nonetheless, there are so many other delays around, be it unit faults or infrastructure issues that the time lost by the reduced speed often pales into insignificance day to day.
 

jayah

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I appreciate that the further west you go the electrification becomes less relevant, as of course down the Thames Valley electric running for local trains has become the norm with the electrostars (well assuming we don't end up losing some of them) But down here it's almost a completely different railway and what we should have had, what 20/30 years ago. I don't appreciate trains with electric capability belching out their dirty diesel fumes unnecessarily in our urbanised environment. I'm not so sure about keeping perfect time under diesel mode, that's not the impression I've been left with as a passenger but obviously bow to anyone with operational knowledge.
There isn't much urban environment between Didcot and Cardiff. They certainly don't belch these days, just like the planes, cars, taxis and lorries without which modern life wouldn't exist as we know it.
 

jayah

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Yeah I disagree with the perfect time on diesel comment. I think 'good enough in most but not all cases' is probably closer to the mark. Generally speaking, due to allowances in various places, with a clear run 800s on diesel that should be on electric can match the timetable but that's in much the same way that on electric they would make up time / arrive early. That diesel mode offers sufficient performance to match the timetable exactly east of Didcot I think has been soundly debunked. Nonetheless, there are so many other delays around, be it unit faults or infrastructure issues that the time lost by the reduced speed often pales into insignificance day to day.

Given the amount of diesel running apparently going on I would like to see some evidence of this lost time?
 

samuelmorris

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There isn't much urban environment between Didcot and Cardiff. They certainly don't belch these days, just like the planes, cars, taxis and lorries without which modern life wouldn't exist as we know it.
No but there's a lot more to air pollution than the visible sooty exhaust, the point still stands. Every 10-car 800 formation running on diesel into the capital is the engine size equivalent of 60 road vehicles driving there. (I don't have the emissions figures but I don't expect they'll be much different to that) The answer to this is not 'well then electrification is pointless', it's to fix the problem causing diesel-only running in the first place. This will always come up to a certain small degree and is a potentially useful emergency measure where otherwise a unit would have to be detrained or be out of service, but it should be a very small proportion of the fleet. I'm sure they'll get there eventually, but it is taking longer than people would like.

Given the amount of diesel running apparently going on I would like to see some evidence of this lost time?
I'm not the best person to ask as I'm not a regular user of the line nor do I have access to data stating which services did/did not run diesel-only. I'm sure the rail performance society could give you some specific run times if you're that distrusting of general consensus on the issue. There are some useful reports on the RPS website that illustrate the issue fairly nicely on a general basis. There are also a lot of run time logs but I suspect most of these predate the power curve of 800s being modified.
 

jayah

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No but there's a lot more to air pollution than the visible sooty exhaust, the point still stands. Every 10-car 800 formation running on diesel into the capital is the engine size equivalent of 60 road vehicles driving there. (I don't have the emissions figures but I don't expect they'll be much different to that) The answer to this is not 'well then electrification is pointless', it's to fix the problem causing diesel-only running in the first place. This will always come up to a certain small degree and is a potentially useful emergency measure where otherwise a unit would have to be detrained or be out of service, but it should be a very small proportion of the fleet. I'm sure they'll get there eventually, but it is taking longer than people would like.


I'm not the best person to ask as I'm not a regular user of the line nor do I have access to data stating which services did/did not run diesel-only. I'm sure the rail performance society could give you some specific run times if you're that distrusting of general consensus on the issue. There are some useful reports on the RPS website that illustrate the issue fairly nicely on a general basis. There are also a lot of run time logs but I suspect most of these predate the power curve of 800s being modified.
It isn't desirable to use diesels when you have wires, but on train is worth 5-6 lorries and the don't move along main roads outside schools.

There are far cheaper and more effective ways to improve air quality in London than running wires through empty fields at great expense in the West Country.
 

Phil G

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Prior to electrification to Swindon going live my train from Chippenham initially was always late by several minutes at best then after a while started to arrive on time, now with electrification to Swindon they are arriving 2 or 3 minutes early so it does really seem to be making a difference.
 

td97

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The amount of diesel-only running is surely excessive? Granted, Stoke Gifford is not yet able to fully service electrics? But electric trains are *meant* to have reduced and cheaper maintenance. What is going so wrong day-in day-out that they cannot fully utilise the £bn GWML electrification? What would have happened if all electric 801s were introduced as originally intended? 10-25% of the fleet out of the service at any given time?

One of the major selling points to the public, for all the disruption endured during electrification works, was 'greener, cleaner, quieter, quicker trains'. It's plastered on every NR press release about electrification works. Diesel-only workings provide almost none of the promised improvements. It cannot be stressed enough how disruptive the works and never-ending overruns were, and continue to be, for rail users and lineside neighbours. Piling and construction works late at night or at weekends. Closures and diversions. And these new trains are still incapable of delivering the promised improvements.

Hitachi, at this point 14 months after introduction, have well and truly failed to deliver and upkeep a reliable train that is a genuine upgrade compared to the previous stock.

Edit: if anyone has more reliable figures for the % of diesel only workings then I will be happy to update the figures I used in my post.
 

jayah

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The amount of diesel-only running is surely excessive? Granted, Stoke Gifford is not yet able to fully service electrics? But electric trains are *meant* to have reduced and cheaper maintenance. What is going so wrong day-in day-out that they cannot fully utilise the £bn GWML electrification? What would have happened if all electric 801s were introduced as originally intended? 10-25% of the fleet out of the service at any given time?

One of the major selling points to the public, for all the disruption endured during electrification works, was 'greener, cleaner, quieter, quicker trains'. It's plastered on every NR press release about electrification works. Diesel-only workings provide almost none of the promised improvements. It cannot be stressed enough how disruptive the works and never-ending overruns were, and continue to be, for rail users and lineside neighbours. Piling and construction works late at night or at weekends. Closures and diversions. And these new trains are still incapable of delivering the promised improvements.

Hitachi, at this point 14 months after introduction, have well and truly failed to deliver and upkeep a reliable train that is a genuine upgrade compared to the previous stock.

Edit: if anyone has more reliable figures for the % of diesel only workings then I will be happy to update the figures I used in my post.
They are quicker but largely from the faster operation of the doors and swifter pulling away from stations.

I have posted logs of them beating HST times on almost every station to station leg from Penzance to Reading and holding to the booked departure times station after station in a way HSTs never do.
 

JN114

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The amount of diesel-only running is surely excessive? Granted, Stoke Gifford is not yet able to fully service electrics? But electric trains are *meant* to have reduced and cheaper maintenance. What is going so wrong day-in day-out that they cannot fully utilise the £bn GWML electrification? What would have happened if all electric 801s were introduced as originally intended? 10-25% of the fleet out of the service at any given time?

One of the major selling points to the public, for all the disruption endured during electrification works, was 'greener, cleaner, quieter, quicker trains'. It's plastered on every NR press release about electrification works. Diesel-only workings provide almost none of the promised improvements. It cannot be stressed enough how disruptive the works and never-ending overruns were, and continue to be, for rail users and lineside neighbours. Piling and construction works late at night or at weekends. Closures and diversions. And these new trains are still incapable of delivering the promised improvements.

Hitachi, at this point 14 months after introduction, have well and truly failed to deliver and upkeep a reliable train that is a genuine upgrade compared to the previous stock.

Edit: if anyone has more reliable figures for the % of diesel only workings then I will be happy to update the figures I used in my post.

For one the £bn GWML electrification is nowhere near finished.

For two until the wires are brought into service at Stoke Gifford (on December 30th) - only North Pole can do any work or examinations on the AC equipment on the train - a lot of the diesel-only running is because sets are running out of miles between mandatory pantograph exams, which until December 30th only North Pole can do. North Pole is a big depot but it can't maintain the entire fleet of 800s and 802s on its own. A bit of diesel only running - which at worst has a very marginal impact on performance as they're specified and evidently capable of keeping to HST timings on diesel - is a small sacrifice to keeping the fleet going at present.

I know the "jam tomorrow" argument is a bit thin but the project isn't finished yet. There's still electrification to Cardiff to introduce, there's still a number of 802s left to deliver, and there's a major new timetable change to unlock the capabilities the new fleet offers. Judging the success of the entire programme before it's even delivered is premature.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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I think seeing electric running both ways outpost of Swindon from January will be a major psychological breakthrough for GWEP. Getting electric trains to ‘nearly’ Bristol is a pretty massive achievement in itself.
 

Bikeman78

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They seem to keep perfect time under diesel so does it particularly matter? Personally I can't tell if it is diesel or not .

It would be nice to use the wires where they exist but the GW electrification west of Didcot has become pretty irrelevant other than closing the line for months on end.
The idea is to accelerate the schedules and then they definitely won't keep time on diesel. You are right about the diesel engines, very quiet both inside and outside the train. Much quieter than 180s or Voyagers.
 

td97

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For two until the wires are brought into service at Stoke Gifford (on December 30th) - only North Pole can do any work or examinations on the AC equipment on the train - a lot of the diesel-only running is because sets are running out of miles between mandatory pantograph exams, which until December 30th only North Pole can do. North Pole is a big depot but it can't maintain the entire fleet of 800s and 802s on its own.
Good to hear that improvements should be forthcoming. Hopefully, like everything 800-related, it should gradually improve. I'm glad that it's due to mandatory examinations and not because they're already falling to pieces!
They are quicker but largely from the faster operation of the doors and swifter pulling away from stations.
Yes, I know in diesel they (at least) keep to HST timings, and trounce HSTs on electric performance. It's just unfortunate that it's taking so long to get there (multiple culprits, not exclusively Hitachi or GWR)
 

Bikeman78

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They are quicker but largely from the faster operation of the doors and swifter pulling away from stations.

I have posted logs of them beating HST times on almost every station to station leg from Penzance to Reading and holding to the booked departure times station after station in a way HSTs never do.
That might be true on the line to Penzance where, west of Exeter, the line speed is fairly low and the stops closer together. There is no way that a diesel IET can match an HST from Reading to Swindon or Swindon to Bristol Parkway.

Yesterday I had a textbook HST run from Paddington to Swindon where I dropped back onto the 20:15 Swansea. The HST got to Swindon in 56 minutes, the pair of 800s took 62 minutes with the same stopping pattern. I strongly suspect they were running on diesel. Both trains were very busy, the HST was rammed to Reading and still full and standing to Didcot. I expect the 20:15 was equally busy for the first part of the journey but there was no clear advantage in terms of station dwell times. No time was made up at any point on the journey to Cardiff.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C54306/2018/12/20/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C58057/2018/12/20/advanced

In my opinion, the worst feature of the 800s is the lack of toilets. Yesterday, 800010 didn't have any working toilets at all, all the way from London to Swansea. Like an idiot, I actually waited outside the pair of toilets (IMX waiting for a toilet on an 800 is normal) for a while before realising they were broken. Only when I sat down did I overhear converations amongst other passengers stating that they were all broken. For the record, they weren't disgruntled HST enthusiasts; they were mainly young women or parents with kids walking up and down trying to find a working toilet.
 

td97

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There is no way that a diesel IET can match an HST from Reading to Swindon or Swindon to Bristol Parkway.
And as @JN114 said, very soon there will (hopefully!) be no need for them to match HST performance in diesel mode on the stretches you've mentioned.
 

Bletchleyite

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In my opinion, the worst feature of the 800s is the lack of toilets. Yesterday, 800010 didn't have any working toilets at all, all the way from London to Swansea. Like an idiot, I actually waited outside the pair of toilets (IMX waiting for a toilet on an 800 is normal) for a while before realising they were broken. Only when I sat down did I overhear converations amongst other passengers stating that they were all broken. For the record, they weren't disgruntled HST enthusiasts; they were mainly young women or parents with kids walking up and down trying to find a working toilet.

I don't see why that is so difficult to achieve given that even with CETs most toilets are in use on Pendolinos, Voyagers, 350s etc.

As for electric running - surely EMUs are more reliable than DMUs, so I'd have expected problems with diesel running, not electric!
 

47271

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In my opinion, the worst feature of the 800s is the lack of toilets.
In my experience not so much a lack of toilets but plainly blocked or otherwise unserviceable ones still letting people try to use them, they do seem to be quite sensitive to heavy use. I don't use IETs that often but the only two hair raising incidents that I've had with onboard wcs this past year have both been on this type of train.
 

Reliablebeam

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Just a quick thanks for viewpoints on the diesel running. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed this issue. It sounds from our insiders that some resolution for this is on the horizon so hopefully in the new year we have more electric running to look forward to. I will await with interest!
 

Marlo36

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I shall be travelling in February from PAD to NTA ON THE 10.33 1C77 and at the moment its a IEP 9-Coach.Always enjoyed the HST'S, but will go to Sainsbury's ( PAD) to get snacks and drink because cannot afford GWR's prices ( working on a tight budget ).
 

Master29

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I shall be travelling in February from PAD to NTA ON THE 10.33 1C77 and at the moment its a IEP 9-Coach.Always enjoyed the HST'S, but will go to Sainsbury's ( PAD) to get snacks and drink because cannot afford GWR's prices ( working on a tight budget ).
The prices aren`t much different in there I`m afraid.
 

Master29

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Well on my first 802 journey, must say they ate better than 800s. First time for me on 07:00 Paddington to Bristol TN. Nice shiny green paint job instead of dull vinyls, much better seat fabric, acceleration is so much better, doesn't cut off once doing about 40 but just keeps on going (in diesel). Think much less criticism if 800s had been like this.

They do accelerate well until they reach Devon and Cornwall. Coming out of Totnes the 802 seemed to struggle a bit but I suppose you only notice this where there is an engine underfloor.
 

-Colly405-

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Someone here did mention the iet trolley offering hot food actually, how does that work? Do they have a limited hot selection on the trolley, or do they have to go back to the kitchen and do it?
I was on 1L24 on Weds this week, and there was no hot food. The catering guy said they had stopped doing it as it took too long to go and sort it.
Coming back later on 1B76 the only catering on the 9-car set was the cold drinks trolley from First Class doing the whole train.
 

samuelmorris

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I shall be travelling in February from PAD to NTA ON THE 10.33 1C77 and at the moment its a IEP 9-Coach.Always enjoyed the HST'S, but will go to Sainsbury's ( PAD) to get snacks and drink because cannot afford GWR's prices ( working on a tight budget ).
I'd leave the station if I were you. As an example, Upper Crust (not a good marker of low prices I admit) serve the same thing on Paddington concourse for £9 as they do on Liverpool Street concourse for £7.50 and even the latter is vastly more than an out-of-station equivalent. I don't know if the rent is higher at Paddington or what but I remember having the same experience the last time as well - food there is astonishingly expensive.
 

wils180

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In my experience not so much a lack of toilets but plainly blocked or otherwise unserviceable ones still letting people try to use them, they do seem to be quite sensitive to heavy use. I don't use IETs that often but the only two hair raising incidents that I've had with onboard wcs this past year have both been on this type of train.


They can be a nightmare as they lock themselves out very easily; mostly they’re quite simple to reset, I managed to get four working again the other day. Sadly not many TMs know how to/ can be bothered to fix them
 
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