GWR Class 800

[59CosG95]

Re: Bedwyn DOO, I've just read this article in Newbury Today, and I can't believe it! Talk about misinformed!?!

Local rags are hardly ever "misinformed", they've probably jotted everything down shorthand and translated into an article which creates a stir in Middle Englanders who buy it.

Because...that's how local rags stay afloat in the digital era. Sensationalism.

 

[JN114]

Re: Bedwyn DOO, I've just read this article in Newbury Today, and I can't believe it! Talk about misinformed!?!

Unless they’ve edited it since you originally posted it isn’t actually that bad - It’s modifications to CCTV, not fitting CCTV, but it’s otherwise factual.

 

[jimm]

Of course, I've posted a great deal about that as have many others here. The seating debate was reopened by that propaganda piece appearing in the Telegraph.

That propaganda piece being about LNER - not GWR.

The moderators created separate threads about the trains for each route, so why are people blethering on about LNER seat covers in this thread, rather than this one?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-azuma-class-800-801.170436/page-14

or this one

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/telegraph-article-azuma-seats.174906/

or even this one, from earlier in the year

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/seating-and-comfort-on-the-ieps-vs-hsts.160789/

We established a long time ago that some people do not like the type of seats fitted in Class 800s and 802s.

Many other threads on this forum about other types of seat on other trains have also established that someone, somewhere, has got it in for just about every type of seat currently in use on the British railway network.

Seating comfort is entirely subjective and a matter of personal preference. People endlessly repeating their own preferences here will not change that - nor get the DfT to change the seats.

Perhaps further discussion about LNER's fabric choices and related spin, and seats in Class 80x trains generally, could be confined to one or other of the threads I have linked to, so the rest of us get a rest from the same people saying the same things about seats over and over in this thread?

 

[Rob F]

That propaganda piece being about LNER - not GWR.

The moderators created separate threads about the trains for each route, so why are people blethering on about LNER seat covers in this thread, rather than this one?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-azuma-class-800-801.170436/page-14

or this one

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/telegraph-article-azuma-seats.174906/

or even this one, from earlier in the year

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/seating-and-comfort-on-the-ieps-vs-hsts.160789/

We established a long time ago that some people do not like the type of seats fitted in Class 800s and 802s.

Many other threads on this forum about other types of seat on other trains have also established that someone, somewhere, has got it in for just about every type of seat currently in use on the British railway network.

Seating comfort is entirely subjective and a matter of personal preference. People endlessly repeating their own preferences here will not change that - nor get the DfT to change the seats.

Perhaps further discussion about LNER's fabric choices and related spin, and seats in Class 80x trains generally, could be confined to one or other of the threads I have linked to, so the rest of us get a rest from the same people saying the same things about seats over and over in this thread?

Maybe it’s because the class 800 is a ‘passenger train’ and, to use the awful terminology of the day, the seat is the primary interface between the passenger and the train. All the technology in the world won’t make this a good ‘passenger train’ if the passenger is subjected to a terrible seat. I know it is subjective and that some people like them but they seem to be vastly outnumbered by those that think they are poor. It really is a counsel of despair to suggest that people don’t want or need comfort and that they should be grateful just to sit down. The interior of these trains could so easily have been so much better and that is what I find the saddest aspect of this saga. Of course now we will get the usual GWR/LNER/DaFT aoplogists telling us how discussions about seats are boring, not as boring I would suggest, as those try to stifle discussion on what is the biggest factor on how the users will ultimately judge these trains.

 

[Japan0913]

That propaganda piece being about LNER - not GWR.

The moderators created separate threads about the trains for each route, so why are people blethering on about LNER seat covers in this thread, rather than this one?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-azuma-class-800-801.170436/page-14

or this one

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/telegraph-article-azuma-seats.174906/

or even this one, from earlier in the year

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/seating-and-comfort-on-the-ieps-vs-hsts.160789/

We established a long time ago that some people do not like the type of seats fitted in Class 800s and 802s.

Many other threads on this forum about other types of seat on other trains have also established that someone, somewhere, has got it in for just about every type of seat currently in use on the British railway network.

Seating comfort is entirely subjective and a matter of personal preference. People endlessly repeating their own preferences here will not change that - nor get the DfT to change the seats.

Perhaps further discussion about LNER's fabric choices and related spin, and seats in Class 80x trains generally, could be confined to one or other of the threads I have linked to, so the rest of us get a rest from the same people saying the same things about seats over and over in this thread?

I'm sorry. I have picked up an article of LNER.
if LNER is successful,
I believe in GWR may be improved

@FainsaUK
The Leading European Passenger Seat Manufacturer
https://twitter.com/fainsauk

 

[bastien]

Maybe it’s because the class 800 is a ‘passenger train’ and, to use the awful terminology of the day, the seat is the primary interface between the passenger and the train. All the technology in the world won’t make this a good ‘passenger train’ if the passenger is subjected to a terrible seat. I know it is subjective and that some people like them but they seem to be vastly outnumbered by those that think they are poor. It really is a counsel of despair to suggest that people don’t want or need comfort and that they should be grateful just to sit down. The interior of these trains could so easily have been so much better and that is what I find the saddest aspect of this saga. Of course now we will get the usual GWR/LNER/DaFT aoplogists telling us how discussions about seats are boring, not as boring I would suggest, as those try to stifle discussion on what is the biggest factor on how the users will ultimately judge these trains.

We're not 'stifling discussion', we're just trying to get it in the correct thread.

 

[samuelmorris]

That propaganda piece being about LNER - not GWR

Correct, that post ought to have been in the LNER thread. Since it was here, I replied to it.

Generally I think the seating debate has run its course as far as the 800s are concerned. The DfT clearly aren't going to change matters, especially if there are almost no viable certified alternatives. I personally think the seat on the 800 is objectively unfit for purpose, even if how uncomfortable it is in practice is a matter of personal opinion, which of course it is. The reason people are complaining so much is simply that seat comfort is really important. If you physically ache from using a train or are at least uncomfortable for the whole journey, any of the train's positives attributes are going to be become insignificant. Fury about the lack of buffet or the colour of the interior is going to be far less memorable if the journey is otherwise pleasant. Apart from reliability of the train itself (also poor but at least improving), appropriate seating really is very high on the priority list. It wouldn't be discussed ad nauseum on here if that weren't the case.

 

[FGW_DID]

Apart from reliability of the train itself (also poor but at least improving)

Poor reliability, do you have the factual stats for that claim or is it just anecdotal?

 

[irish_rail]

Poor reliability, do you have the factual stats for that claim or is it just anecdotal?

I really don't think anyone is denying that they are unreliable, even their biggest fans, with or without the statistics.....

 

[43096]

Poor reliability, do you have the factual stats for that claim or is it just anecdotal?

Last month's Modern Railways quoted them for P7 as:
Class 800 7,140 MTIN (5,701 annual)
Class 802 6,144 MTIN (6,610 annual)

For comparison, using the Golden Spanners data back in January, other selected IC fleets were (all annual):
Anglia 90+Mark 3: 56,312
EMT 222: 50,589
XC 220: 30,433
XC 221: 25,392
GC HST: 23,133
VT 390: 21,404
LNER HST: 19,300
LNER 91: 14,867
Hull 180: 14,665
GWR HST: 6,578

 

[Japan0913]

Last month's Modern Railways quoted them for P7 as:
Class 800 7,140 MTIN (5,701 annual)
Class 802 6,144 MTIN (6,610 annual)

For comparison, using the Golden Spanners data back in January, other selected IC fleets were (all annual):
Anglia 90+Mark 3: 56,312
EMT 222: 50,589
XC 220: 30,433
XC 221: 25,392
GC HST: 23,133
VT 390: 21,404
LNER HST: 19,300
LNER 91: 14,867
Hull 180: 14,665
GWR HST: 6,578

You don't like Hitachi so that I understand.
However, if you continue to ride the Class800
You should look for good information as much as possible.

If you are a gentleman...

 

[hexagon789]

However, if you continue to ride the Class800
You should look for good information as much as possible.

Why should anyone deliberately look for information to paint a type of train in a positive light purely on the basis one rides them?

Surely if the figures show several other classes of train to be more reliable then there is no getting out of that other than by working to improve the reliability of said trains?

Indeed these figures should really be a wake-up call to Hitachi that they need to do better.

 

[FGW_DID]

Last month's Modern Railways quoted them for P7 as:
Class 800 7,140 MTIN (5,701 annual)
Class 802 6,144 MTIN (6,610 annual)

For comparison, using the Golden Spanners data back in January, other selected IC fleets were (all annual):
Anglia 90+Mark 3: 56,312
EMT 222: 50,589
XC 220: 30,433
XC 221: 25,392
GC HST: 23,133
VT 390: 21,404
LNER HST: 19,300
LNER 91: 14,867
Hull 180: 14,665
GWR HST: 6,578

Out of interest did MR have the P7 MTIN for the GWR HST?

 

[fgwrich]

802006/007 coupling issues on Laira.

I thought as much. Thankfully GWR managed to loop the Bedwyn to Padd Turbo at Newbury Racecourse to let us get a shot at getting into Reading a little quicker. Unfortunately that didn't manage to go to plan as it got caught up in the backlog of the fatality near Reading this morning.

Slightly turning the debate back to the seats for a moment, my colleague started talking to other members of the public on board an 802 this morning and they said exactly the same thing. The seats are uncomfortable and not up to scratch for an Intercity Train, So much so that they decided to stand between Reading and Newbury because they had had enough of them. Note - this is not myself or people with railway backgrounds saying this, as the two members of the public she was speaking to work in I.T. She herself is not from a railway background either and agreed that, while the space is a little nicer, the seats (especially in First Class) are hard. Throughout the conversation I said nothing, and while I did the trolley struggled to make it's way through catching the walls of the aisles as it did. So, whilst I may be returning the spotlight back to the attention of the seats, these were actually comments made by non railway people. It IS being noticed!

Im afraid, Gentleman or No Gentleman, I won't be looking for good information about Hitachi's products if they are frankly, not up to the levels of where they should be. I completely agree with the post above that, from the issues with the 802s to the issues with the LNER 800s, This needs to be a huge be a wake-up call to Hitachi that they need to do better, especially when there are other manufacturers out there offering a better quality product.

Also as noticed today, why does the door mechanism appear to "clunk" louder on the 802s as they pick up / reduce speed?

 

[samuelmorris]

Poor reliability, do you have the factual stats for that claim or is it just anecdotal?

As per 43096's post, factual. The Hull Trains 180s which seem to have rendered the TOC a bit of a laughing stock with unavailability are posting over double the figures posted by the 800s. The only consolation is that somehow the GWR HSTs are even worse, which really isn't much of a consolation.

 

[43096]

Out of interest did MR have the P7 MTIN for the GWR HST?

No, it's just the new trains.

Next issue of Modern Railways (end of the month) will have data for everything as it is Golden Spanners month.

 

[FGW_DID]

The only consolation is that somehow the GWR HSTs are even worse, which really isn't much of a consolation.

That’s what made me question it. The good old reliable HST yet worse reliability than the IET fleet!

How can the HT 180 fleet be scoring over double when their current unavailability is causing large cancellations to HT’s services? Is that not a flawed system of measurement?

 

[samuelmorris]

That’s what made me question it. The good old reliable HST yet worse reliability than the IET fleet!

How can the HT 180 fleet be scoring over double when their current unavailability is causing large cancellations to HT’s services? Is that not a flawed system of measurement?

Yeah, something that surprised me too, though I don't think I've referred to the HSTs as reliable either, certainly not the GWR ones.
I'm not honestly sure how a unit failure causing it to be out for weeks at a time affects matters. I presume the unit still being out of service but replaced by something else doesn't count as it doesn't cause a delay for the passenger, but if the service it cancelled it might? Would need someone who knows the system better to explain that.

 

[43096]

You don't like Hitachi so that I understand.
However, if you continue to ride the Class800
You should look for good information as much as possible.

If you are a gentleman...

What on earth are you on about?

I have posted facts. Don't get what your problem is, other than they show up Hitachi's junk for what it is.

 

[43096]

That’s what made me question it. The good old reliable HST yet worse reliability than the IET fleet!

How can the HT 180 fleet be scoring over double when their current unavailability is causing large cancellations to HT’s services? Is that not a flawed system of measurement?

Difference between reliability and availability I guess. Don't forget the Hull data is for P7 2017, so is 12 months out of date.

As for the HSTs, the GWR fleet is significantly worse than every other HST fleet by a wide margin. Saying the IEPs are better than GWR HSTs is a bit like saying Southampton are better than Fulham - it's true, but they're bottom and second bottom of the league!

 

[samuelmorris]

Difference between reliability and availability I guess. Don't forget the Hull data is for P7 2017, so is 12 months out of date.

As for the HSTs, the GWR fleet is significantly worse than every other HST fleet by a wide margin. Saying the IEPs are better than GWR HSTs is a bit like saying Southampton are better than Fulham - it's true, but they're bottom and second bottom of the league!

If only they were bottom of the league. I believe 345s are well behind the 800s, not sure about the 700s but they're not wonderful either.

 

[FGW_DID]

Saying the IEPs are better than GWR HSTs is a bit like saying Southampton are better than Fulham - it's true, but they're bottom and second bottom of the league!

 

[43096]

Yeah, something that surprised me too, though I don't think I've referred to the HSTs as reliable either, certainly not the GWR ones.
I'm not honestly sure how a unit failure causing it to be out for weeks at a time affects matters. I presume the unit still being out of service but replaced by something else doesn't count as it doesn't cause a delay for the passenger, but if the service it cancelled it might? Would need someone who knows the system better to explain that.

In short, every delay of 3 minutes and over generates a TIN (Technical Incident) on TRUST - so a cancellation automatically generates a TIN. TINs are then allocated to a cause using the delay attribution guide.

In the case of Hull's fleet, obviously the original TIN (say of the unit that caught fire) will count, but subsequent cancellations as a result of that TIN won't, I don't believe - you don't get penalised multiple times for one failure AFAIAA.

 

[43096]

If only they were bottom of the league. I believe 345s are well behind the 800s, not sure about the 700s but they're not wonderful either.

I was thinking only of the "InterCity" league!

 

[CMRail]

Surprise surprise, thanks for confirming. Time for some extensions to 9 cars methinks

One issue, complete redesign of the project. Great logic.


The issue is that people can’t get there heads around the fact that HSTs are not what the DfT and TOCs want in the 21st century, hence why the 800 is designed in a way to express less of a personality. Being young myself I like both trains equally, however I don’t feel the need to constantly prove a point that the HSTs are good and the IETs are unreliable because quite frankly it’s repetitive, annoying and useless as everyone tells me anyway.

You’d come to find that the general public like the IETs and the bright airy feel with a modern touch. However others pefer the old, darker more significant HSTs however some decide to pick on the Intercity Express every day.

Commuters are used to them, and I haven’t replied to this thread in ages as it’s constant moan and after a good day to come on here and watch people moan about the seats 14 months on it pees me off as it is certainly unnecessary and no one wants to hear it.. Surley you can accept that IETs have issues and that you pefer HSTs rather than constantly causing issue over it?

 

[samuelmorris]

Fair enough, I'll take that. Certainly when factoring in the much higher mileage the units cover in a day they are (along with GWR HSTs) basically rock bottom. Thanks for the info re: TIN assignment - presumably each delay is given some sort of unique cause ID, and all the resultant cancellations are attributed to the same fault ID (assuming that's the reason) and thus only one TIN is scored against the fleet's mileage?

CMRail - the public don't necessarily like new stock. I've heard quite a few complaints about 345s on my travels as they're the new stock in my area. Alright the seats are as hard as iron and make those on 800s seem plush, but otherwise I quite like 345s. I genuinely prefer travelling on them to their predecessors, yet I don't like 800s, certainly not at the moment based on my experiences. I'm sure a fair % of people that travel on them wouldn't give a damn, but I don't think that % is as high as many people think.

The problem is, some issues like the seats, let's face it, aren't going to change. Other things, however, can and in some cases, like the reservation systems never operating and unit reliability being bottom-tier, definitely should be.

Complaining about literally anything on a forum not run by the TOC concerned is never going to change anything, but it doesn't make the points being discussed any less valid. That people are still complaining after all this time shows how long it's taking to put some of these things right.

 

[cactustwirly]

One issue, complete redesign of the project. Great logic.


The issue is that people can’t get there heads around the fact that HSTs are not what the DfT and TOCs want in the 21st century, hence why the 800 is designed in a way to express less of a personality. Being young myself I like both trains equally, however I don’t feel the need to constantly prove a point that the HSTs are good and the IETs are unreliable because quite frankly it’s repetitive, annoying and useless as everyone tells me anyway.

You’d come to find that the general public like the IETs and the bright airy feel with a modern touch. However others pefer the old, darker more significant HSTs however some decide to pick on the Intercity Express every day.

Commuters are used to them, and I haven’t replied to this thread in ages as it’s constant moan and after a good day to come on here and watch people moan about the seats 14 months on it pees me off as it is certainly unnecessary and no one wants to hear it.. Surley you can accept that IETs have issues and that you pefer HSTs rather than constantly causing issue over it?

Well if Hitachi had built something decent then maybe they wouldn't get so much criticism!
It's kinda embarrassing when a 40 year old train is superior to the 800s in pretty much every way (well except for the doors issues!)

 

[superalbs]

One issue, complete redesign of the project.

Yay!

 

[northernbelle]

I thought as much. Thankfully GWR managed to loop the Bedwyn to Padd Turbo at Newbury Racecourse to let us get a shot at getting into Reading a little quicker. Unfortunately that didn't manage to go to plan as it got caught up in the backlog of the fatality near Reading this morning.

Slightly turning the debate back to the seats for a moment, my colleague started talking to other members of the public on board an 802 this morning and they said exactly the same thing. The seats are uncomfortable and not up to scratch for an Intercity Train, So much so that they decided to stand between Reading and Newbury because they had had enough of them. Note - this is not myself or people with railway backgrounds saying this, as the two members of the public she was speaking to work in I.T. She herself is not from a railway background either and agreed that, while the space is a little nicer, the seats (especially in First Class) are hard. Throughout the conversation I said nothing, and while I did the trolley struggled to make it's way through catching the walls of the aisles as it did. So, whilst I may be returning the spotlight back to the attention of the seats, these were actually comments made by non railway people. It IS being noticed!

Im afraid, Gentleman or No Gentleman, I won't be looking for good information about Hitachi's products if they are frankly, not up to the levels of where they should be. I completely agree with the post above that, from the issues with the 802s to the issues with the LNER 800s, This needs to be a huge be a wake-up call to Hitachi that they need to do better, especially when there are other manufacturers out there offering a better quality product.

Also as noticed today, why does the door mechanism appear to "clunk" louder on the 802s as they pick up / reduce speed?

Once again another *anecdotal* tale. I too have overheard conversations like that, but I have also overheard people's liking of the train - either way doesn't prove a trend or a conclusion.

It's all so subjective; "I heard X talking to Y and they said Z" means very little if you want to understand the full story - I'm not really sure how many more times this needs to be said.

And as for a "wake up call" to Hitachi - the design is what the DfT have contracted. No amount of Hitachi arising from a slumber will change the design aspects of the train unless they are not meeting the spec. The seats meet the spec laid out.

As per the requests of others, could we keep the 'my opinion of the seats' discussion to the relevant thread please - it's boring sifting through it on here when trying to get to the interesting stuff.

 

[TractiveEffort]

Difference between reliability and availability I guess. Don't forget the Hull data is for P7 2017, so is 12 months out of date.

As for the HSTs, the GWR fleet is significantly worse than every other HST fleet by a wide margin. Saying the IEPs are better than GWR HSTs is a bit like saying Southampton are better than Fulham - it's true, but they're bottom and second bottom of the league!

So GWR are the common denominator..... maybe it’s the way they operate them, maybe they are more risk averse than other TOCS?