GWR Class 800

[superalbs]

Ride quality was much better on this unit than the newer one I used previously, and there were no rattles from the interior trim and window blinds this time.

And that one was built in Japan?

 

[samuelmorris]

It was, but I didn't consider that at the time.

 

[43096]

Believe there was another Hitachi failure yesterday... A sense of humour failure from Hitachi people at the “Golden Spanners” awards after Roger Ford pointed out that Pacers are more reliable.

 

[Railperf]

First run through Didcot towards Swindon. All this changeover to diesel and then back to electric again beyond Steventon is nonsense...why not pan down a mile or so before the bridge and pan up again afterwards? It also seems to add a level of additional unreliability starting and stopping engines.

 

[Railperf]

Believe there was another Hitachi failure yesterday... A sense of humour failure from Hitachi people at the “Golden Spanners” awards after Roger Ford pointed out that Pacers are more reliable.

Plenty of 800's running today. Feels weird to be at Bristol T.M and see only 800's..not a single HST in sight. The end is nigh!!

 

[trebor79]

Did Paddington to Bristol. I couldn't honestly say where the engines started or stopped. Only time I was (barely) aware of them was when pulling away from stops.

Even bought a cup of tea from the trolley.

Train goes like a rocket compared to HST.

Budget seats aside, a good train.

 

[DidcotDickie]

First run through Didcot towards Swindon. All this changeover to diesel and then back to electric again beyond Steventon is nonsense...why not pan down a mile or so before the bridge and pan up again afterwards? It also seems to add a level of additional unreliability starting and stopping engines.

I agree.

I asked the question in another forum frequented by GWR drivers/managers and didn't get a reply. I don't understand why they don't pan down before the A34 bridge on the down line, coast for a mile or so, then pan up after Causeway Crossing? Non-stop trains will be doing line speed then, and will lose little speed, while those stopping at Didcot will have gained enough speed by then to carry them though without slowing too much and losing time. On the up line IETs will be doing line speed or near enough by Causeway Crossing and could probably coast to Didcot. There must be a suitable location for them to pan up between the A34 bridge and Milton Junction.

 

[irish_rail]

I agree.

I asked the question in another forum frequented by GWR drivers/managers and didn't get a reply. I don't understand why they don't pan down before the A34 bridge on the down line, coast for a mile or so, then pan up after Causeway Crossing? Non-stop trains will be doing line speed then, and will lose little speed, while those stopping at Didcot will have gained enough speed by then to carry them though without slowing too much and losing time. On the up line IETs will be doing line speed or near enough by Causeway Crossing and could probably coast to Didcot. There must be a suitable location for them to pan up between the A34 bridge and Milton Junction.

Can only pan up at linespeed in designated areas where the ohle is strengthened. Otherwise must be doing below 20mph to pan up

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Can only pan up at linespeed in designated areas where the ohle is strengthened. Otherwise must be doing below 20mph to pan up

I believe this was debunked for the GWML, the wiring is strengthened for it, it’s just they have specific areas for line speed pan up (closest east of Swindon would be Moreton Cutting) so they can monitor OHL wear.

A driver on here did say before that trains do lose a bit of speed while panning down and turning engines on; drivers could theoretically slow to 60mph and take the EMU only PSR on electric.

Would it be worth doing that if the IET’s were derestricted on acceleration?

 

[Railperf]

I believe this was debunked for the GWML, the wiring is strengthened for it, it’s just they have specific areas for line speed pan up (closest east of Swindon would be Moreton Cutting) so they can monitor OHL wear.

A driver on here did say before that trains do lose a bit of speed while panning down and turning engines on; drivers could theoretically slow to 60mph and take the EMU only PSR on electric.

Would it be worth doing that if the IET’s were derestricted on acceleration?

From Didcot starting on diesel you are only doing 80mph through there anyway. I'm not sure what is worse - extra brake wear to slow to 60mph - the pan up / pan down scenario or extra brake wear slowing to 60mph. or the extra diesel used. On an 802 - that is six 21-litre engines running at 940hp for around 5 minutes. Probably pan up and pan down is best. It uses less fuel and brake pads.

 

[samuelmorris]

I agree.

I asked the question in another forum frequented by GWR drivers/managers and didn't get a reply. I don't understand why they don't pan down before the A34 bridge on the down line, coast for a mile or so, then pan up after Causeway Crossing? Non-stop trains will be doing line speed then, and will lose little speed, while those stopping at Didcot will have gained enough speed by then to carry them though without slowing too much and losing time. On the up line IETs will be doing line speed or near enough by Causeway Crossing and could probably coast to Didcot. There must be a suitable location for them to pan up between the A34 bridge and Milton Junction.

As far as I know there isn't power available to run the train from neither power source for that length of time? Pan down without switching to diesel power for more than 30 seconds and I'd imagine you'd be on emergency lighting and no A/C for that duration, no good during winter when it's dark for so much of the day.

 

[Railperf]

Did Paddington to Bristol. I couldn't honestly say where the engines started or stopped.

Train goes like a rocket compared to HST.
.

When sitting in first or last coach of a 9-car you cannot hear the engines at all. That applies to coaches A, E, F and J of a double 800 consist.
In the other coaches it is very clear where when engines are in use.
Performance wise - on electric the 800's are a step up from HST's. The 802's are even better. Astonishing - 0 to 125mph in 3.5 minutes or less.

 

[samuelmorris]

When sitting in first or last coach of a 9-car you cannot hear the engines at all. That applies to coaches A, E, F and J of a double 800 consist.
In the other coaches it is very clear where when engines are in use.
Performance wise - on electric the 800's are a step up from HST's. The 802's are even better. Astonishing - 0 to 125mph in 3.5 minutes or less.

Surely the 802s would perform the same as 800s on electric?

 

[Railperf]

No...the 802's were ordered by GWR and therefore are not subject to the DfT's performance limits for 800's - a specified rate of acceleration - probably to minimise energy consumption. They are also currently slightly faster in diesel mode - as again not subject to a specified performance or engine wear limit.

 

[samuelmorris]

Interesting, I don't ever recall reading the 800s' acceleration rate was capped on electric as well before now, well aware of the differences on diesel mode. Presumably various performance recordings have validated this.

 

[Railperf]

Yes..go the Railway Performance Society website and click on the IET menu. There is some freely available data recorded by members.

The difference is astonishing in electric mode - less noticeable in diesel mode. We knew the 800''s were being 'held back' in electric mode - to match the DFT acceleration curve quite accurately - but the 802's unrestricted performance really demonstrates the difference.

 

[Railperf]

802 vs 800 electric mode Reading start
0 to 60mph 48s v 53s
0 to 100mph 1 min 56s v 2 min 20s
0 to 124mph 3 min 19s vs 4 min 12s
Not much difference eh

 

[404250]

So an 802 would be quicker Paddington to Reading than an 800? Seems a ridiculous situation. Why would Dft want to limit acceleration on 800s when emissions are zero?

 

[samuelmorris]

So an 802 would be quicker Paddington to Reading than an 800? Seems a ridiculous situation. Why would Dft want to limit acceleration on 800s when emissions are zero?

As far as I know it was never done for emissions reasons but maintenance requirements - Agility would permit less intensive maintenance if the power units were worked less hard. That presumably includes electric operation too, I just never considered that. It also could potentially explain some (but not all) of the suspected reliability issues of the 802s by comparison.

 

[Mintona]

802 vs 800 electric mode Reading start
0 to 60mph 48s v 53s
0 to 100mph 1 min 56s v 2 min 20s
0 to 124mph 3 min 19s vs 4 min 12s
Not much difference eh

I’ve not had a go on a Class 802 on electric yet as far as I can remember. Looking forward to it.

 

[Railperf]

I’ve not had a go on a Class 802 on electric yet as far as I can remember. Looking forward to it.

Imagine how much faster they might be without all those extra engines - generators and fuel tanks to lug around eh.

 

[Railperf]

As far as I know there isn't power available to run the train from neither power source for that length of time? Pan down without switching to diesel power for more than 30 seconds and I'd imagine you'd be on emergency lighting and no A/C for that duration, no good during winter when it's dark for so much of the day.

That is crazy...surely there should be enough battery power to last at least 10 minutes!! What happens if the OLE power is discharged without advanced warning and time to switch to diesel?

 

[geoffk]

As far as I know it was never done for emissions reasons but maintenance requirements - Agility would permit less intensive maintenance if the power units were worked less hard. That presumably includes electric operation too, I just never considered that. It also could potentially explain some (but not all) of the suspected reliability issues of the 802s by comparison.

Penny pinching then. Micro-management by civil servants, the no. 1 problem with the railways today.

 

[Pete_uk]

When sitting in first or last coach of a 9-car you cannot hear the engines at all. That applies to coaches A, E, F and J of a double 800 consist.

No engines underneath means a quieter ride. The simpler bogies on the 9 carriage units are unpowered.

 

[Railperf]

No engines underneath means a quieter ride. The simpler bogies on the 9 carriage units are unpowered.

How many powered bogies are in a 5 / 9 car set?

 

[TractiveEffort]

That is crazy...surely there should be enough battery power to last at least 10 minutes!! What happens if the OLE power is discharged without advanced warning and time to switch to diesel?

The lights should stay on for more than 10 minutes, you wouldn’t have any aircon, the compressors wouldn’t be running, nor at seat sockets etc etc....

 

[TractiveEffort]

Well clearly not all drivers received it. I did , and have had no issues , others as u say where less fortunate

Thought I’d dig deeper and it is in the Drivers manual, section 9.2 Mobilisation, 9.2.5. Power mode selection. That’s for starting the engines on mobilisation.

For immobilising
Section 9.4 paragraph 3 says: Naviagte to the TMS logout screen and tap on either “Log Out Only” if the train is to continue in service immediately, or “Turnaround” if the train is not continuing in service immediately.

 

[hexagon789]

How many powered bogies are in a 5 / 9 car set?

Should be all axles on all the motor cars.

5-car: DPTS-MS-MS-MC-DPTF
9-car: DPTS-MS-MS-TS-MS-TS-MC-MF-DPTF

So 12 motors across 6 bogies on 5-cars, 20 motors across 10 bogies on 9-cars.

 

[TractiveEffort]

How many powered bogies are in a 5 / 9 car set?

6 / 5 car
10 / 9 car

 

[Bikeman78]

Can only pan up at linespeed in designated areas where the ohle is strengthened. Otherwise must be doing below 20mph to pan up

Then why not put a suitably strengthened section either side of Steventon?