GWR Class 800

[59CosG95]

This certainly won't win any photographic awards, but 800311 (fully stickered up) is en route from Doncaster to Acton Main Line - and probably thence to Eastleigh. (5X80)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Don’t forget that it’s Hitachi that determines the number of units to build. They’re contracted to cover diagrams and only get paid for the ones that they do cover. The situation with the 800s is different from other trains where numbers of units are specified in the contract.

I don't think that is true: the fleet size is specified in the contract and feeds through into the diagram fees.
Hitachi have to produce a level of reliability to meet the diagram targets, but they are not going to be able to whistle up an extra IEP or two if they don't.
It's a bit like BA's shuttle service which promised a seat however many people turned up to fly, but soon went back to fixed allocations when the promise couldn't be met.

 

[3973EXL]

This certainly won't win any photographic awards, but 800311 (fully stickered up) is en route from Doncaster to Acton Main Line - and probably thence to Eastleigh. (5X80)

5X82 to Eastleigh Caped, ran from Acton to N Pole.

 

[swt_passenger]

Don’t forget that it’s Hitachi that determines the number of units to build. They’re contracted to cover diagrams and only get paid for the ones that they do cover. The situation with the 800s is different from other trains where numbers of units are specified in the contract.

But that decision is made between invitation to tender and contract award stage. It simply means DfT ask in the ITT for an unspecified number of trains to meet a planned number of diagrams. Once the manufacturers works out how many trains that is, that number is ordered. It’s pretty much an academic point from there on.

The train fleet is still described as X number of trains, not X number of diagrams.

 

[Railperf]

Any 802s out of Paddington this evening?

 

[JN114]

Any 802s out of Paddington this evening?

1633 Exeter is due to be 802006 and 802011

 

[3973EXL]

5X81 ran from Eastleigh to N Pole today. Re-timed from AM to PM 800319 I think.

Poor photo, Sonning Cutting.

 

[Railperf]

1633 Exeter is due to be 802006 and 802011

Well done that man ...802 006 at the london end. Arrived in diesel mode. Seat reservation indicator working too. Hoping it can depart in electric mode.

 

[59CosG95]

Well done that man ...802 006 at the london end. Arrived in diesel mode. Seat reservation indicator working too. Hoping it can depart in electric mode.

Any joy in that regard?

 

[Railperf]

Any joy in that regard?

Yes..departed in electric mode..power is so apparent. Shame we had to crawl into Reading ...in 26 mins !!

 

[Railperf]

Any other 802's out today? If so..which diagrams? Looking for Reading inbound to Padd. ..

 

[Railperf]

How is it a Bristol to London service is formed of a packed 5 car 800, while a Hereford to London service is an emptyish 9 car? ??

 

[JN114]

How is it a Bristol to London service is formed of a packed 5 car 800, while a Hereford to London service is an emptyish 9 car? ??

The packed Bristol is booked to be a 10 car, and has lost its playmate (or never came out with one in the first place this morning). They very well could have come from different depots this morning, one depot being short of units and the other not. It may have been the same depot and on the balance of the whole day that was the "best" diagram to short form of the ones to choose from.

Without knowing the exact services involved I couldn't speculate further as to exactly why, but some combination of all the above.

The only thing I can say for absolute certain is that it's only been done because somewhere there's a shortage of available units; and that if the rolling stock were available it wouldn't be short-formed.

 

[43096]

The packed Bristol is booked to be a 10 car, and has lost its playmate (or never came out with one in the first place this morning). They very well could have come from different depots this morning, one depot being short of units and the other not. It may have been the same depot and on the balance of the whole day that was the "best" diagram to short form of the ones to choose from.

Without knowing the exact services involved I couldn't speculate further as to exactly why, but some combination of all the above.

The only thing I can say for absolute certain is that it's only been done because somewhere there's a shortage of available units; and that if the rolling stock were available it wouldn't be short-formed.

It is still an utter shambles on Hitachi's part: 1752 Worcester, 1822 Hereford, 1845 Swansea and 1900 Bristol off Paddington tonight are all short-formed.

Add to that the on-going issues with the fleet being reported elsewhere where there is an endemic fault with them that sees sets lose half their engines and brakes are only "off" or "full service", and where the fix appears to be to unplug the OTMR. You have to seriously question whether the fleet is actually fit for service currently - what sort of a fault is it that means unplugging a monitoring system is a resolution?

 

[irish_rail]

It is still an utter shambles on Hitachi's part: 1752 Worcester, 1822 Hereford, 1845 Swansea and 1900 Bristol off Paddington tonight are all short-formed.

Add to that the on-going issues with the fleet being reported elsewhere where there is an endemic fault with them that sees sets lose half their engines and brakes are only "off" or "full service", and where the fix appears to be to unplug the OTMR. You have to seriously question whether the fleet is actually fit for service currently - what sort of a fault is it that means unplugging a monitoring system is a resolution?

Being one of the drivers involved who has had this fault I have a funny feeling it is one rogue unit 802101 each time, though I stand to be corrected. I think it's a case of not having time to take it out of traffic to fix the issue.

 

[irish_rail]

In fact 802101 may soon earn the nickname "Damien" as it seems to have so many varying faults. I've driven it 3 times with each occasion having had serious faults.

 

[Railperf]

Interesting to see how many 800's are now running in service compared to HST's. It appears that somewhere between 2/3 to 3/4 of all services are now 80X formed. Performance under 25KV is stunning on the 802's - there is a real 'shove in the back' when full power is applied.
It has been a while since i travelled on an '800' and i have to say, i had been getting fed up with the comments about 'ironing boards' But in all fairness - those seats are firmer than an old school German saloon car. My buttocks were aching after 20 mins!!! I reckon my ironing board has more cushioning on it!.

So anyone contemplating a long journey - one word of advice - bring a cushion to sit on!! Lol. Having sampled a MK4 LNER set, EMT ex GC MK3 and 800/802 on the same day, i can honestly say the Mk4 offered the best ambience and seat comfort. The ex GC HST interiors are terribly outdated in comparison - a real let down, but seats that line up perfectly with the windows are a bonus.

We did have a laugh at the 800 retractable pop down coat hangers - which line up with each window, but shame the seats don't. So in some cases, you might be lucky to have 2 coat hangers but not so much window, or generous viewing area and no coat hangers. I wonder how many millions they could have saved deleting this option, it really does seem a waste of time, and they do look very flimsy!!

The 800 interior is bright and clean, but almost too sterile - like a dentist surgery!

Biggest plus point of the 800's is its ride and stability!. This train definitely felt the most stable of all - and that was being sat directly over the bogie. Aboard the Mk4, i had to move towards the middle of the coach because there was way too much movement below and the ride can be described as being very jiggly. The EMT Ex GC MK3's have lost their legendary ride due to the older dampers being obsolete and having been retrofitted by a modern replacement!

MY only other worthwhile observation -sitting in the leading coach - was the amount of wind noise seemingly being generated overhead due to the less than streamlined roofline. I cannot put this down solely to the Bracknell Willis pantograph - even though that might be partly the cause. Without a sound meter, i reckon the 800 is definitely noisier in terms of rail, aerodynamics /air con / other electronics noises. The MK4 and MK3 seem pretty equal - the Mk4 might be slightly quieter in terms of track noise, but the air conditioning seemed noisier than the MK3.

Has anyone measured interior noise?

 

[Railperf]

The packed Bristol is booked to be a 10 car, and has lost its playmate (or never came out with one in the first place this morning). They very well could have come from different depots this morning, one depot being short of units and the other not. It may have been the same depot and on the balance of the whole day that was the "best" diagram to short form of the ones to choose from.

Without knowing the exact services involved I couldn't speculate further as to exactly why, but some combination of all the above.

The only thing I can say for absolute certain is that it's only been done because somewhere there's a shortage of available units; and that if the rolling stock were available it wouldn't be short-formed.

I was waiting at Didcot Parkway waiting to return to Paddington. It was 1A25 as this was 'full and standing' 5-car 800 and running 17 late. I think the 'emptyish' 9 car (passing non-stop) was 1L80 from Cheltenham - not Hereford as previously stated - apologies. Fortunately 1A26 was a 9-car 800 - so worth the wait!

 

[TractiveEffort]

It is still an utter shambles on Hitachi's part: 1752 Worcester, 1822 Hereford, 1845 Swansea and 1900 Bristol off Paddington tonight are all short-formed.

Add to that the on-going issues with the fleet being reported elsewhere where there is an endemic fault with them that sees sets lose half their engines and brakes are only "off" or "full service", and where the fix appears to be to unplug the OTMR. You have to seriously question whether the fleet is actually fit for service currently - what sort of a fault is it that means unplugging a monitoring system is a resolution?

The OTMR’s are currently under a campaign to be replaced. The power and brake control revert from PWM to old fashioned switches in the event of a PWM failure, at least it can keep going.

 

[samuelmorris]

MY only other worthwhile observation -sitting in the leading coach - was the amount of wind noise seemingly being generated overhead due to the less than streamlined roofline. I cannot put this down solely to the Bracknell Willis pantograph - even though that might be partly the cause. Without a sound meter, i reckon the 800 is definitely noisier in terms of rail, aerodynamics /air con / other electronics noises. The MK4 and MK3 seem pretty equal - the Mk4 might be slightly quieter in terms of track noise, but the air conditioning seemed noisier than the MK3.

Has anyone measured interior noise?

I find the inverter noise quite significant in Mk4s, inaudible in Mk3s, but the A/C noisier in Mk3s than Mk4s, when the train is under power. Since the, what I can only assume is cabin fan speed is a function of the power car engine speed in an HST, when pulling away from a station you really notice how noisy it is (example here:

, but at idle it's fairly quiet and of course at speed you don't hear it over the track/wind noise. A/C noise is probably loudest of the three on 800s but not by that much. It's certainly far quieter than, say, a Desiro UK. I have not travelled in a leading car of an 800 yet so can't comment on how that compares.

 

[Melancholia]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V00160/2018/11/13/advanced

5Z33 2142 London Paddington - Kennington Goods Loop, and its next working:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V00050/2018/11/14/advanced

5Z43 0105 Kennington Goods Loop - North Pole

Reported as 800 012. However, any reason for this test run? Could it be DOO test runs to all local stations, and testing of ASDO at short platform stations (Appleford & Culham)?

 

[Railperf]

Does anyone know why 1C89 - a pair of 802's lost time from Reading to Taunton yesterday (13/11/18) . I was on this as far as Reading - the usual delays entering Reading meant we took 27 mins. But it seems this train got steadily later ending up 13 late at Taunton according to RTT. Were some engines out?
This was bad enough taking 8 minutes passing Twyford to stopping at Reading!!!. All those millions spent on remodelling Reading and its approaches and still it seems to be a major bottleneck. The reality is - we should have thought continental style and been forming double 8-car sets, to increase capacity that way, and increase headways to 4 or 5 minutes instead of 3 minutes. Three minutes is too tight a headway to work with because it allows no buffer for anything to go wrong!!

 

[fgwrich]

In fact 802101 may soon earn the nickname "Damien" as it seems to have so many varying faults. I've driven it 3 times with each occasion having had serious faults.

It's interesting that you mention this, as it isn't the first time I've heard of stock with varying faults coming out of the Pistoia & Naples factories. The first Ansaldo-Breda built stock for the UK were the T69 trams for the Midland Metro, which became pretty infamous for arriving riddled with faults, leaking and having wiring looms like spaghetti. Perhaps Hitachi have picked the poison chalice of factories to launch their European built stock from? The 802s do seem to be the worst of the bunch for construction / faults and the Ansaldo name never really acted as a byword for Quality!

I find the inverter noise quite significant in Mk4s, inaudible in Mk3s, but the A/C noisier in Mk3s than Mk4s, when the train is under power. Since the, what I can only assume is cabin fan speed is a function of the power car engine speed in an HST, when pulling away from a station you really notice how noisy it is (example here:

, but at idle it's fairly quiet and of course at speed you don't hear it over the track/wind noise. A/C noise is probably loudest of the three on 800s but not by that much. It's certainly far quieter than, say, a Desiro UK. I have not travelled in a leading car of an 800 yet so can't comment on how that compares.

To be honest, I've never really noticed the inverter noise that much in the Mk3s other than in the Buffets and converted Buffets (425xx). They always seemed noise under the buffet vehicles, perhaps in part to provide more power for the Buffet / Kitchen facilities?

As for the wind noise in the leading vehicles, I noticed this fairly early on into service. I did question at the time if it had anything to do with the roof layout - some of it is fairly streamlined, however there are the odd and completely square "Boxes" as well.

 

[JN114]

Does anyone know why 1C89 - a pair of 802's lost time from Reading to Taunton yesterday (13/11/18) . I was on this as far as Reading - the usual delays entering Reading meant we took 27 mins. But it seems this train got steadily later ending up 13 late at Taunton according to RTT. Were some engines out?
This was bad enough taking 8 minutes passing Twyford to stopping at Reading!!!. All those millions spent on remodelling Reading and its approaches and still it seems to be a major bottleneck. The reality is - we should have thought continental style and been forming double 8-car sets, to increase capacity that way, and increase headways to 4 or 5 minutes instead of 3 minutes. Three minutes is too tight a headway to work with because it allows no buffer for anything to go wrong!!

1642 a Swan was reported on the line on the Down Main at Kennet Bridge Jn (East of Reading). The first train affected was 1K20 1606 Padd - Bedwyn. That went down the B&H late, which caused knock-on congestion.

As a result 1C89 was RT Southcote, 4L Bedwyn.

Having lost its path it was then regulated at Westbury for on time 1F27 - 2L arriving but 5L departing.

There is 1 minute auto-attributed to an ESR Blatchbridge - East Somerset Jn which left it 6L East Som.

There’s then 6 minutes loss between East Som and Cary due to a track circuit failure.

Peak delay was 13L at Somerton, although it did claw back 2 minutes to arrive Taunton 11L.

 

[Envoy]

Mention has been made of the coat hooks. I like them but put the window side arm rest up to create more space.

 

[Siemens Staines]

All those millions spent on remodelling Reading and its approaches and still it seems to be a major bottleneck.

To a casual observer like myself, the problems you mention at Reading seem to have become more apparent since the advent of 8-car 387s on Reading - Paddington stoppers. When these were turbo operated they could use the East end of one of the higher numbered platforms, while an XC service shared the West end of the same platform. Now more XC services have to use P7 or P8 than before. If everything is running fine then there is no issue, but the moment there are delays it can become a bottleneck impeding trains on the Down Main from Paddington. In the morning peak a XC unit sits in P8 0703-0746 so if two Down trains from Paddington end up close together, for whatever reason, the second one has to sit outside waiting for the first to depart P9 in Ye Olde tradition of Reading. Switching to P7 could be used, but rarely is because the amount of time it would take passengers to negotiate the overbridge and (often broken) escalators probably wouldn't save any time over leaving them on P9

 

[Railperf]

It is a great idea but badly implemented due to the way seats do not line up with window pillars. In this case somebody could politely ask you hang their coat there too, and then you potentially have 2 coats hanging half in your face like a giant curtain.

 

[Railperf]

The packed Bristol is booked to be a 10 car, and has lost its playmate (or never came out with one in the first place this morning). They very well could have come from different depots this morning, one depot being short of units and the other not. It may have been the same depot and on the balance of the whole day that was the "best" diagram to short form of the ones to choose from.

Without knowing the exact services involved I couldn't speculate further as to exactly why, but some combination of all the above.

The only thing I can say for absolute certain is that it's only been done because somewhere there's a shortage of available units; and that if the rolling stock were available it wouldn't be short-formed.

At least the passenger information systems at the station warned it would be full and standing. And running 15 late..there was only another 15 mins to wait for a 9-car with available seats.

 

[jimm]

It's interesting that you mention this, as it isn't the first time I've heard of stock with varying faults coming out of the Pistoia & Naples factories. The first Ansaldo-Breda built stock for the UK were the T69 trams for the Midland Metro, which became pretty infamous for arriving riddled with faults, leaking and having wiring looms like spaghetti. Perhaps Hitachi have picked the poison chalice of factories to launch their European built stock from? The 802s do seem to be the worst of the bunch for construction / faults and the Ansaldo name never really acted as a byword for Quality!

802101, the set referred to in irish_rail's post that you quoted, was built at Kasado in Japan, like the other 80x pre-series sets, including 802001 and 802002.

As for

The 802s do seem to be the worst of the bunch for construction / faults

do you have anything by way of evidence/statistics to back up this sweeping statement?

As part of Ansaldo and Ansaldo-Breda, Pistoia certainly did turn out some terrible trains - but do you really think that Hitachi has done nothing about quality control?

 

[jimm]

All those millions spent on remodelling Reading and its approaches and still it seems to be a major bottleneck.

To a casual observer like myself, the problems you mention at Reading seem to have become more apparent since the advent of 8-car 387s on Reading - Paddington stoppers.

So a swan wandering around on the main lines (as opposed to the reliefs where the 387 stoppers operate) becomes conflated into Reading still being a bottleneck.

You should try being on an Oxford route fast trying to get through Didcot East junction if you want a bottleneck on the GWML in the Thames Valley these days. Fingers crossed a flyover or diveunder there features in CP6 investment plans.