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GWR Class 800

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broadgage

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Broadgauge Railways also has his “mix of shorter sets” with a massive buffet and two full first class coaches proving 40 members of staff.

If broadgage was running the operation, the majority of the fleet would consist of 10 car sets, with about 78 first class seats, and a full sized hot buffet car. These full length, inter city trains to be the norm on busy and long distance services, especially those previously worked by HSTs. Also to be considered for long distance commuter services such as Bristol, if demand warranted this.
A lesser proportion of the fleet would consist of 5 car units with about 36 first class seats and no buffet. These to be used primarily on secondary routes or services that don't justify an intercity train. Especially on services that were not previously worked by HSTs.

Enough spare units to cover for training and breakdowns. A larger proportion of spare 10 car intercity sets and a lesser proportion of interurban 5 car sets. A 10 car intercity set could "at a pinch" be used in place of a dead 5 car unit, but not the other way around unless there was no alternative.
 
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jimm

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Maybe not, but you do feel an almost compulsive need to defend them from criticism at every opportunity.

I feel an almost compulsive need to point out the nonsense that people keep posting about these trains.

No wonder when people keep on treating us to stuff like this one yesterday

So much for the 802`s ability to cope with Dawlish. All services cancelled passing there this afternoon.

Never mind that, er, the 802s were still running at the time, while Voyagers had been stopped, and that anyone taking a cursory glance at the weather forecast yesterday could see there was every chance that no trains at all would be passing through Dawlish at some stage - like they aren't now.

Perhaps this is a comment on the storm-proofing of the Night Riviera's Class 57s, or maybe it's just a commonsense safety precaution in case there's another washout.

The other day we were told, apparently in all seriousness, that some short-forming of IET services was deliberate.

And so on, going back years.

I only partially agree.
Many people dislike the seats, the colour scheme, the number and volume of the on board announcements, and other internal features.
These are relatively easy to change and hopefully will be changed. They are also subjective, some people like the seats, others like the colour scheme.
My objections are more fundamental.
Too many services are short formed. Advocates of the IETs will claim that such short formations are not "regular" nor "frequent" however whatever the terminology used, anyone who has had to stand to Cardiff or Bristol on a 5 car DMU will consider this to be a backward step over sitting on a proper intercity train.
This is not subjective, virtually no one considers a shorter train to be an improvement.
Secondly these new units have no buffet. Very few people consider "no buffet" to an improvement. A limited trolley service that might or might not reach ones seat is not a proper alternative.

Whilst the ability to lengthen 5 car units to full length 9 car is an "essential requirement" I doubt that anyone really expects this.
The ability to add a buffet is also an "essential requirement" but it seems unlikely that we will see a proper hot buffet. A microbuffet perhaps, otherwise known as a static trolley.

To return to the house buying analogy above, the IET is comparable to purchasing a house that is too small, and then wondering if it can be extended.

Too short and without buffet, are more fundamental objections than colour schemes.

Yesterday morning my train to Reading was short-formed, a five-car instead of a nine-car on the 06.42 from Hereford. But being a Friday, when far fewer people from places west of Oxford go into London, everyone using this service got a seat and no one was standing all the way to Reading - and even then there looked to be enough seats available for those boarding at that stop.

Such a set swap could cause problems most other mornings of the week, but if a five-car stand-in arrived at Oxford on this service overloaded, passengers trying to join there would have to wait all of seven minutes for the following 09.01 IET, which is nice and empty, as it starts from Oxford.

I assume what had happened was that one set for a 2x5 due to work a service out of Bristol was not available, so the nine-car meant to go to Hereford was swapped for the other five-car.

Net result, the Bristol passengers got the nice big train they apparently simply cannot live without at any time of the day or night - even when there are only a couple of hundred of them actually travelling - and the Cotswold Line passengers still got a train.

Wind the clock back 12 months and a failed HST at the depot in Bristol of a morning would most likely have resulted in no train at all leaving Hereford at 06.42.

Whereas yesterday a five-car train ran, which is a distinct improvement on no train, and on me arriving at work the best part of an hour late.

Or have a mixture of shorter trains and longer ones, but enough of these that virtually every service is full length.

What does this mean? There there should be about a dozen five-cars to replace the five 180s and some Turbos and GWR should have got 80 nine-car sets? Oh sorry, I mean 10-cars with a hot buffet... and never mind the portion of the HST fleet that was deployed on services that could perfectly well be worked by a five-car IET - services that were often worked by a 180 during the period when FGW had all 14 of them on the books.

What exactly is a 'hot' buffet anyway?

If you mean something able to offer a Travelling Chef style service, dream on.

Or do you mean something like a Voyager shop, with a microwave oven to heat up bacon baguettes? Somehow, I can't see the East Coast sets having anything more than that in the buffet/shop.

Enough spare units to cover for training and breakdowns. A larger proportion of spare 10 car intercity sets and a lesser proportion of interurban 5 car sets. A 10 car intercity set could "at a pinch" be used in place of a dead 5 car unit, but not the other way around unless there was no alternative.

And what do you think will be the situation when it comes to spares once the entire fleet of GW 800s and 802s is actually available for passenger traffic? A point which has yet to be reached.

As for training, how many more times do you need to be told that GWR lost several months of the time that this was supposed to be happening last year due to the issues with signalling kit between Reading and Didcot? If that time had not been lost, then 800001 and 002 would not still be needed for training runs at this stage. Maybe the DfT should have ordered a couple of extra sets just on the off-chance that they might be needed for training, or perhaps not...

Why do you think GWR is sometimes operating five-cars in place of 2x5 and nine-car trains at the moment? Maybe because there is no alternative to doing that - unless you regard just cancelling a service as an alternative.
 
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JN114

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To stamp on the never ending circle of whining before it goes around again.

First IET west of Carmarthen due to run on Monday night for platform validation.
 

Goldfish62

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I'd be shocked if it's a regular occurrence for a train to remain standing room only all the way between paddington and Penzance considering it's certainly way to far to be a commuter town for London
It's a fairly regular occurrence at peak holiday times for there to be standing room only on HSTs well into Cornwall.
 

404250

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I don't know much about the whole system and who is to blame, but like the majority of paying customers think these trains should have been much better than they are in many ways. Such a wasted opportunity and no quick fix.
 

F Great Eastern

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Indeed, I came across a few customers who were saying it would never happen if the service was nationalised. That's what happens when the Tory government have spent years engineering a system based on nationalising the praise and privatising the blame, rather than sticking to the facts of the matter.

Note how the department were very much hands on when the trains were procured, and as they entered into service and posing for many photo opportunities about how great they are. Notice how they went missing the moment that people started criticising them, leaving GWR to take the flack.

It's very easy to take unpopular decisions or do things that people won't like if you know that you will never be held accountable to them and you can shift the blame to someone else who had no choice in the matter.

This is Tory mantra all over, cutting beds in hospitals in 3 digit figures in some places, and when a single figure increase in migrants use hospital beds, coming out and then blaming the migrants which had very little impact, to distract from the savage cuts.

Can't say I like Corbyn or the SRA, but this Tory government and the departments of it are despicable and couldn't care less about the people of this country and the Department of Transport is a fine example of that. A body that takes the public for the ride again and again and is never held to account.
 
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cactustwirly

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I only partially agree.
Many people dislike the seats, the colour scheme, the number and volume of the on board announcements, and other internal features.
These are relatively easy to change and hopefully will be changed. They are also subjective, some people like the seats, others like the colour scheme.
My objections are more fundamental.
Too many services are short formed. Advocates of the IETs will claim that such short formations are not "regular" nor "frequent" however whatever the terminology used, anyone who has had to stand to Cardiff or Bristol on a 5 car DMU will consider this to be a backward step over sitting on a proper intercity train.
This is not subjective, virtually no one considers a shorter train to be an improvement.
Secondly these new units have no buffet. Very few people consider "no buffet" to an improvement. A limited trolley service that might or might not reach ones seat is not a proper alternative.

Whilst the ability to lengthen 5 car units to full length 9 car is an "essential requirement" I doubt that anyone really expects this.
The ability to add a buffet is also an "essential requirement" but it seems unlikely that we will see a proper hot buffet. A microbuffet perhaps, otherwise known as a static trolley.

To return to the house buying analogy above, the IET is comparable to purchasing a house that is too small, and then wondering if it can be extended.

Too short and without buffet, are more fundamental objections than colour schemes.

I'd like to invite you to travel on a London - Sheffield train.
Which is a planned 5 car DMU, with no hot buffet!
Then I think you'll realise how good the IETs are!
 

Thunderer

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All they need is padding but even then I don’t mind them. We don’t need higher seats that feel squashed.

How is the IET depressing? The nice lighting, leg room and options to comfort greatly improves the welcoming feel of the train.
Its very depressing when you see a platform full of people (Like I did yesterday at Cardiff Central) try to squeeze on a single 5 car unit (800005) working the 12:45 Padd-Swansea. It was standing room only from Cardiff (and at 14:50, it wasn't even the rush hour) I managed to grab the last available seat in First Class. The service offered at this moment in time is a de-improvement with regards to overall capacity. Every time I go to catch Swansea or London bound trains within South Wales over the last few months, I'm practically guarenteed a short formed 5 car set full to the rafters. Im sure they will eventually sort this out (he says with optamism) but thats no good to passengers who currently have to suffer overcrowded short formed services. Now the train itself, yes it is depressing. Its like a sterile mobile office with seats as comfortable as sitting on an orange/bananna box. First Class is not much better and is certainly not worth paying the premium for comfort, although on the other hand it is if you want to enjoy peace and quiet away from the masses, it is worth it (just). Cue all the people to moan about me mentioning seats, short formed services etc
 
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CMRail

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Its very depressing when you see a platform full of people (Like I did yesterday at Cardiff Central) try to squeeze on a single 5 car unit (800005) working the 12:45 Padd-Swansea. It was standing room only from Cardiff (and at 14:50, it wasn't even the rush hour) I managed to grab the last available seat in First Class. The service offered at this moment in time is a de-improvement with regards to overall capacity. Every time I go to catch Swansea or London bound trains within South Wales over the last few months, I'm practically guarenteed a short formed 5 car set full to the rafters. Im sure they will eventually sort this out (he says with optamism) but thats no good to passengers who currently have to suffer overcrowded short formed services. Now the train itself, yes it is depressing. Its like a sterile mobile office with seats as comfortable as sitting on an orange/bananna box. First Class is not much better and is certainly not worth paying the premium for comfort, although on the other hand it is if you want to enjoy peace and quiet away from the masses, it is worth it (just). Cue all the people to moan about me mentioning seats, short formed services etc

It is not a moan, it’s the statistics of the realities. For those who travel often but not more than 2,3 times a week it seems a lot more frequent and some luckier than others on short formation. But it has dramatically calmed do and will now as 800001 and 800002 are accepted into passenger use.

March-July were the peak months of short services and have substantially decreased since then. However to some people who travel on every train on the network and have experience of every role in Milford House, they are on 100% of the services that GWR provide.

If I had time in my life to stand at Paddington all day and write all the busy services I would but no one without anything other than nothing to do would proceed with doing that.

Today there were a whopping two short formed services in the middle of the day, where it wouldn’t be as crammed as 700 passengers. In broadgage’s perfect railway his two memebers of staff at control would be able to finance the addition of a long hot buffet. Most people don’t care and would rather remain seated continuing reading, writing and not having to move the kids than walk four coaches to a buffet car and wait 10 minutes for a microwaved bacon baguette. GWR are currently planning use of their fabulous kitchens more efficiently and plan to introduce an improved trolley offering alongside it by purchasing better trolleys.

Comparing my quote of a good ambiance on the Intercity Express Trains and comparing it to a under 1% of GWR services experiance is certainly unfair.

What some users fail to understand is the concept of money, introduction and plans. On broadgages IET there would be more tables; even though I easily get one as of present. More first class meaning less standard and the buffet would provide less capacity. Unnecessary capacity on lines such as Cotswolds and Oxford Fasts, Cheltenham’s, Bristol fasts and Bedwyn services as well as all the Exeter semi-fasts and Plymouth to Penzance. But as members of this forum have been through every rank that Network Rail has their Chief Accountant would obviously approve of this and GWR, DfT and Network Rail have no experiance and have sat watching CCTV having a laugh. Also Mr broadgage has a couple of hundred sets around just incase or failure.

The main reason for the short forms on the trains are because of delayed electrification leading to further delays etc.. and the HSTs had to go having been given time extensions to the maximum possible. As GWR loose a couple of HSTs then more IETs need to run in half.

When the new timetable is out then you’d be looking at substituting units being ready and five vice 9,10 would be rare thanks to the 93 units available.
 

404250

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The main reason for the short forms on the trains are because of delayed electrification leading to further delays etc.. and the HSTs had to go having been given time extensions to the maximum possible. As GWR loose a couple of HSTs then more IETs need to run in half.

A few went or are going to Scotland, but what about the rest of the HSTs? There are some still in use so what has happened to the rest of them, which must be the majority?
 

Geoff DC

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Most people don’t care and would rather remain seated continuing reading, writing and not having to move the kids than walk four coaches to a buffet car and wait 10 minutes for a microwaved bacon baguette. GWR are currently planning use of their fabulous kitchens more efficiently and plan to introduce an improved trolley offering alongside it by purchasing better trolleys.

Comparing my quote of a good ambiance on the Intercity Express Trains and comparing it to a under 1% of GWR services experiance is certainly unfair.

What some users fail to understand is the concept of money, introduction and plans. On broadgages IET there would be more tables; even though I easily get one as of present. More first class meaning less standard and the buffet would provide less capacity. Unnecessary capacity on lines such as Cotswolds and Oxford Fasts, Cheltenham’s, Bristol fasts and Bedwyn services as well as all the Exeter semi-fasts and Plymouth to Penzance.

Fair Enough for you CMrail - with an average 1h 54 minutes to London from Gloucester, The IETs must be perfection & hardly need seats except for the elderly & infirm.

What you fail to see is not everyone lives on a commuter line with such fast & short overall distance services
 

Pete_uk

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I don't know much about the whole system and who is to blame, but like the majority of paying customers think these trains should have been much better than they are in many ways. Such a wasted opportunity and no quick fix.

A camel is a horse designed by committee
 

JN114

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the majority of paying customers think these trains should have been much better than they are in many ways.

Have you got a source for that? On observation I would say there is a very vocal minority who dislike them, and a silent overwhelming majority who really don’t care - but that’s just my observation.
 

cactustwirly

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A few went or are going to Scotland, but what about the rest of the HSTs? There are some still in use so what has happened to the rest of them, which must be the majority?

Still in service....
The Powercars going to Scotland are roughly half the original HST fleet
 

404250

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Have you got a source for that? On observation I would say there is a very vocal minority who dislike them, and a silent overwhelming majority who really don’t care - but that’s just my observation.

No source. I've must have overheard many more negative comments than you have.
 

Clarence Yard

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The main reason for the short forms on the trains are because of delayed electrification leading to further delays etc.. and the HSTs had to go having been given time extensions to the maximum possible. As GWR loose a couple of HSTs then more IETs need to run in half.

When the new timetable is out then you’d be looking at substituting units being ready and five vice 9,10 would be rare thanks to the 93 units available.

Absolutely not. The short forms have nothing to do with late electrification. They have everything to do with Hitachi not being able to send enough units into traffic, according to their contract. The release of the HST sets has been co-ordinated with the IET sets going into traffic so the number of 10 car sets in service should always be 10 car.

There will never be 93 sets available to GWR. They only get 32 of the 5 car cl.800 sets and 17 of the 9 car cl.800 sets a day. The 800 and 802 sets are not fully interchangeable, due to the restrictive nature of the DfT/Agility contract.

If Hitachi can’t get the right number of cl.800 units off their depots in the morning, it will continue to be an issue.
 

Siemens Staines

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Apologies if I have missed it but I have not seen mention on this forum that 800306 has had vinyls attached to commemorate the centenary of the end of the First World War. The only online picture I can find is from GWR twitter;

https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1060848919226318848

There is a lot of detail spread across all 9 coaches. My only trivial comment is that you really need more time to take everything in than you ever get when a train is a passing through a station.
 

CMRail

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Fair Enough for you CMrail - with an average 1h 54 minutes to London from Gloucester, The IETs must be perfection & hardly need seats except for the elderly & infirm.

What you fail to see is not everyone lives on a commuter line with such fast & short overall distance services

Absolutely not. The short forms have nothing to do with late electrification. They have everything to do with Hitachi not being able to send enough units into traffic, according to their contract. The release of the HST sets has been co-ordinated with the IET sets going into traffic so the number of 10 car sets in service should always be 10 car.

There will never be 93 sets available to GWR. They only get 32 of the 5 car cl.800 sets and 17 of the 9 car cl.800 sets a day. The 800 and 802 sets are not fully interchangeable, due to the restrictive nature of the DfT/Agility contract.

If Hitachi can’t get the right number of cl.800 units off their depots in the morning, it will continue to be an issue.

@Geoff DC I never once mentioned the seats.?! May I also add that sometimes in one day I travel to Cardiff and then out to London?

@Clarence Yard Apoliges for my misunderstanding, I did write this in a rush. My main point was that there should be enough sets for faults once all trains are accepted into traffic.

My main point is to justify the fact that people like jimm, JN114 etc are not kissing the IET, they are providing facts. People like broadgage are either copy and pasting the same post over and over again or simply unaware of the planned use of the five car units.
 
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CMRail

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Apologies if I have missed it but I have not seen mention on this forum that 800306 has had vinyls attached to commemorate the centenary of the end of the First World War. The only online picture I can find is from GWR twitter;

https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1060848919226318848

There is a lot of detail spread across all 9 coaches. My only trivial comment is that you really need more time to take everything in than you ever get when a train is a passing through a station.

I’m at Didcot on Tuesday, I’ll take a look if it comes through at 125mph ;)
 

anthony263

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To stamp on the never ending circle of whining before it goes around again.

First IET west of Carmarthen due to run on Monday night for platform validation.
It's running tonight to Pembroke dock. Gonna see how it copes with narbeth tunnel
 

F Great Eastern

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Apologies if I have missed it but I have not seen mention on this forum that 800306 has had vinyls attached to commemorate the centenary of the end of the First World War. The only online picture I can find is from GWR twitter;

https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1060848919226318848

There is a lot of detail spread across all 9 coaches. My only trivial comment is that you really need more time to take everything in than you ever get when a train is a passing through a station.

See video here:
 
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Absolutely not. The short forms have nothing to do with late electrification. They have everything to do with Hitachi not being able to send enough units into traffic, according to their contract. The release of the HST sets has been co-ordinated with the IET sets going into traffic so the number of 10 car sets in service should always be 10 car.

There will never be 93 sets available to GWR. They only get 32 of the 5 car cl.800 sets and 17 of the 9 car cl.800 sets a day. The 800 and 802 sets are not fully interchangeable, due to the restrictive nature of the DfT/Agility contract.

If Hitachi can’t get the right number of cl.800 units off their depots in the morning, it will continue to be an issue.

As with any TOC or maintainer and it’s depots, it’s all about availability, plenty of times the HST fleet hasn’t been fully available, the west fleet is continually minus balance, there will be days when circumstance means that will be the same with the Hitachi fleet. Pressure on depot staff to service trains (HST/DMU/EMU/Bi-mode, all equally affected) and carry out any repairs is relentless at all depots, the timescales are tight, it’s no wonder fleets are often short, the only answer is more sets/units, but who would pay and if there were spares over and above the daily fleet requirement met, someone would want to run extra services........
 

Goldfish62

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Have you got a source for that? On observation I would say there is a very vocal minority who dislike them, and a silent overwhelming majority who really don’t care - but that’s just my observation.
Yes, acceptance of mediocrity became they know no different. Very sad.
 

themiller

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As with any TOC or maintainer and it’s depots, it’s all about availability, plenty of times the HST fleet hasn’t been fully available, the west fleet is continually minus balance, there will be days when circumstance means that will be the same with the Hitachi fleet. Pressure on depot staff to service trains (HST/DMU/EMU/Bi-mode, all equally affected) and carry out any repairs is relentless at all depots, the timescales are tight, it’s no wonder fleets are often short, the only answer is more sets/units, but who would pay and if there were spares over and above the daily fleet requirement met, someone would want to run extra services........
Don’t forget that it’s Hitachi that determines the number of units to build. They’re contracted to cover diagrams and only get paid for the ones that they do cover. The situation with the 800s is different from other trains where numbers of units are specified in the contract.
 
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3973EXL

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800312 has moved from Doncaster to Eastleigh today.

5X82 Acton to Eastleigh leg passing Reading
DSC01575.JPG
 
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