GWR Class 800

[MizzyMoo]

The avoiding of use of a second driver to take a set on/off Stoke Gifford is currently a useful by-product of the software issue but split/join ceased when Hitachi requested GWR to stop it, pending a software solution. You just couldn’t electrically couple/uncouple in service properly.

The 10 cars stay off the North and South Cots because of infrastructure issues and the DfT contract has the 5 cars receiving the majority of their maintenance at Stoke Gifford. There are strict downtime and concurrence rules with these 5 car sets so the split and join moves allow the 9 and 7 hour statutory maintenance window rules at Stoke Gifford to be complied with. The 5 cars will, as a result, always tend to gravitate/cycle towards Bristol starts and finishes.

The choice of introduction services has not been done for any commercial reason and wasn’t done by Swindon train planners. The Suduko puzzle that is the IEP TARA contract means that the sets have to be diagrammed for maintenance compliance first and foremost and only on the lines where they can run in formation. Also the phased loss of roads at OOC and HST/180 hand back dates had to be factored in so a maintenance specialist (who can also do a bit of train planning) had to work it all out (SX) first, diagram by diagram, train by train!

Once the software issue has been finally nailed, I expect Agility to require GWR to adhere to the contracted maintenance windows so I suspect we will see a reversion to 5 car working west of Bristol in due course. Where possible 9 cars will work some of those services in future but there aren’t enough 9 cars to do this on every train.

Thanks Clarence Yard & JN114, all interesting stuff, and at least some partial comfort/reassurance if not complete...

Think you're saying that the second 5 car set is locked out because of crew shortages, not because of the short platforms?

Given that the signals are a long way off the platform ends to account for 'wrong-way round' HSTs, has platforming the middle of a 2x5 car set (with first class off the front and back) been looked at so part of both 5 car sets can be platformed under SDO?

Whilst understanding why modern trains now come in fixed sets, its difficult to see why the 5 car sets are in the majority, where/what are the bulk of the 9 car sets intended for?

Splitting-off a 5 car set off the evening services to return to Stoke Gifford sort of makes sense (if you like playing sardines), but doing the reverse on the morning services (i.e. half a BTM-PAD from Exeter/Plymouth, and the other half from Stoke Gifford) sounds like a recipe for trouble, is that the plan?

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, the 5 cars on the WSM/Tauntons are diagrammed LTP to split and join at Bristol because of the short platforms west of Bristol. There are PRM restrictions on how you SDO at stations so you need a good proportion of a 10 car on a platform to comply, more than is currently possible at some of the stations.

The order for the GWR under the IEP banner was done by the DfT on the basis of a theoretical timetable and theoretical loads so it involved 5 cars whenever possible and a minimum number of 9 cars to deal with certain peak loads. There was a large amount of splitting and joining.

GWR have, to put not too fine a point on this, torn that all apart to produce something that meets current (longer train) requirements and introduces more operational robustness into that theoretical timetable. Also more 9 cars have been ordered under the cl.802 banner for core GWML workings, not just the W of E services.

The plan for the W of E services in the morning is to attach at Plymouth, not Bristol.

 

[FGW_DID]

I noticed that the main lines were closed last night, and this morning I have seen an 800 heading West with pan up between Reading and Didcot, so perhaps the problem's been fixed now.

I haven’t seen anything to say it has been resolved. It was on this mornings late notices and states UFN. Nothing in the regular updates.
It only applies to the Down Main so any Westbound 800s should be ‘pan down’ between Reading & Didcot.

The westbound 800 I’m on at the moment certainly ‘panned down’ at Reading. I heard the engines rumble into life whilst in the platform.

 

[43096]

I think it's citing this page:
http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/products/projects/at300-west-england

Subsequent to that First have ordered 7 x 9-car (GWR), 19 x 5-car (TPE) and 5 x 5-car (Hull), total 183 cars. So by my reckoning that option has been used up.

 

[samuelmorris]

Ah of course, I forget that all three TOCs the 802s are running with are FirstGroup, that would make sense.

 

[Master29]

My first journey on an IEP today 800013 1L51. Rather than go through all my views which are similar to most posts quite honestly, I do keep hearing that they are worthy successors to the HST. I`d have to say no. Not a bad train overall but a successor to the HST. They need at least 3 decades of reliable service first to get that title and to be honest, they are more of a sideways move rather than a progressive one. Look at the difference between class 52`s and their eventual HST replacement. 35mph more. though not over all the journey granted. The 52 would have been progressive from it`s predecessor. It`s taken 40+ years and just seems a bit of a let down when one considers the whole. Still, an enjoyable ride though.

 

[jyte]

My first journey on an IEP today 800013 1L51. Rather than go through all my views which are similar to most posts quite honestly, I do keep hearing that they are worthy successors to the HST. I`d have to say no. Not a bad train overall but a successor to the HST. They need at least 3 decades of reliable service first to get that title and to be honest, they are more of a sideways move rather than a progressive one. Look at the difference between class 52`s and their eventual HST replacement. 35mph more. though not over all the journey granted. The 52 would have been progressive from it`s predecessor. It`s taken 40+ years and just seems a bit of a let down when one considers the whole. Still, an enjoyable ride though.

Thing is that until we get a new signalling system (oh boy) 125mph is the limit, so speed improvements have to be found in acceleration/deceleration performance. Something the 800s offer in electric mode in spades.

Though I agree with the 'mostly sideways' comment. If NR can get ERTMS working large scale then I suspect 140mph running will become more common - but then we run into the NEC Kingston problem.

 

[ainsworth74]

Something the 800s offer in electric mode in spades.

Still can't wait to see what one of them can do on the electrified portion of the ECML. It's going to be quite something if the sprints they've shown on the GWML are anything to go on.

 

[jyte]

Still can't wait to see what one of them can do on the electrified portion of the ECML. It's going to be quite something if the sprints they've shown on the GWML are anything to go on.

Definitely - but the Class 91's performance isn't something to sniff at. The don't take off like a rocket like the 387s/800s do (when the driver wants to/can) but they get up to speed deceptively quickly. I've gone over Colton Junction south from a standing start at York at over 110mph in a mk4/91 many a time - a distance of about 5 1/2 miles. An HST is a little more leisurely, crossing just over 100mph from personal experience. I think the factoid about the HST is that it takes 11 miles to reach 125? 5.5 miles for the first 100, and 5.5 for the last 25.....

 

[Envoy]

Are the 802’s for London > Devon/Cornwall going to have the same hard seats - and what about the ones for Virgin East Coast? I also think that the seats with no windows should really be luggage areas.

 

[superalbs]

Are the 802’s for London > Devon/Cornwall going to have the same hard seats - and what about the ones for Virgin East Coast? I also think that the seats with no windows should really be luggage areas.

Unbelievably, the no-window seats are often taken on Class 800s, even in an empty carriage.

 

[Sprinter153]

An HST is a little more leisurely, crossing just over 100mph from personal experience. I think the factoid about the HST is that it takes 11 miles to reach 125? 5.5 miles for the first 100, and 5.5 for the last 25.....

According to the traction manual, it's actually more like 17 miles 0-125mph!

 

[Master29]

Thing is that until we get a new signalling system (oh boy) 125mph is the limit, so speed improvements have to be found in acceleration/deceleration performance. Something the 800s offer in electric mode in spades.

Though I agree with the 'mostly sideways' comment. If NR can get ERTMS working large scale then I suspect 140mph running will become more common - but then we run into the NEC Kingston problem.

Theyre` excellent on acceleration in electric mode for sure. One of the positives. They remind me of a 158 in diesel though. As an aside I wonder if the reason they seem to tail off at a certain speed whilst accelerating in diesel may be more of a psychological thing. It may well be the case that they do accelerate slower but I`ve noticed a similar thing on voyagers. Much like accelerating from standstill in a car. Once you get over 50mph the acceleration effect seems less noticeable. I didn`t notice this so much in electric though. Could just be me. Anyone else notice this or otherwise?

 

[jj1314]

Unbelievably, the no-window seats are often taken on Class 800s, even in an empty carriage.

If you've got a glossy laptop screen, they can be handy!

 

[ooo]

How are they coping in the snow if there's any out?

 

[hassaanhc]

Theyre` excellent on acceleration in electric mode for sure. One of the positives. They remind me of a 158 in diesel though. As an aside I wonder if the reason they seem to tail off at a certain speed whilst accelerating in diesel may be more of a psychological thing. It may well be the case that they do accelerate slower but I`ve noticed a similar thing on voyagers. Much like accelerating from standstill in a car. Once you get over 50mph the acceleration effect seems less noticeable. I didn`t notice this so much in electric though. Could just be me. Anyone else notice this or otherwise?

For me the Class 165/166 DMUs always felt like they were going quite a bit slower than their actual speed.

 

[swaldman]

Theyre` excellent on acceleration in electric mode for sure. One of the positives. They remind me of a 158 in diesel though. As an aside I wonder if the reason they seem to tail off at a certain speed whilst accelerating in diesel may be more of a psychological thing. It may well be the case that they do accelerate slower but I`ve noticed a similar thing on voyagers. Much like accelerating from standstill in a car. Once you get over 50mph the acceleration effect seems less noticeable. I didn`t notice this so much in electric though. Could just be me. Anyone else notice this or otherwise?

Any vehicle's acceleration under constant power will reduce as speed increases. This is because as the speed increases, an increasing proportion of the engine power is used to maintain fight air resistance (drag), so less is available to increase the speed further.

AIUI things may be more complex than this on 800s (not 802s) because the available power isn't constant, but is reduced at high speeds - but others far more knowledgeable than I will probably comment on that

 

[shaun]

Are the 802’s for London > Devon/Cornwall going to have the same hard seats - and what about the ones for Virgin East Coast? I also think that the seats with no windows should really be luggage areas.

Seats will be the same, yes. Whether they will be as hard as current remains to be seen with the rumoured new seat covers. Personally I think the seats would be just fine with a bit more padding to make them more like the 395s.

Overall they do have the capability to be a true successor to the HST, its just a shame they've been bogged down with poorly designed seats and the lack of electric running. Once at full pelt, they are a fine machine.

 

[D365]

Unbelievably, the no-window seats are often taken on Class 800s, even in an empty carriage.

If you've got a glossy laptop screen, they can be handy!

Or one might wish to lean their head against the wall for a nap...

 

[choochoochoo]

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere. I did try google and the search facility on here.

I heard non-operating train crew are not allowed to back cab on the GWR 800s. Is this true and if so what's the exact reasoning ?

 

[Dhassell]

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere. I did try google and the search facility on here.

I heard non-operating train crew are not allowed to back cab on the GWR 800s. Is this true and if so what's the exact reasoning ?

Probably because there is no need for anyone other than the driver/engineers etc to be in the rear cab?

 

[gallafent]

How are they coping in the snow if there's any out?

I saw one heading south out of Oxford at about noon … with its nosecone open (to catch more snow I guess … I just saw it go over the bridge, and didn't see if it had any passengers … looks as though it may have been 5P22 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O74933/2018/03/01/advanced ?

As seen at http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/OXF/2018/03/01/1130?stp=WVS&show=all&order=actual , GWR things around Oxford already weren't running very well by noon today.

 

[choochoochoo]

Probably because there is no need for anyone other than the driver/engineers etc to be in the rear cab?

True. But it's not unusual for non-operating crew to 'back/middle cab' when pass-ing or commuting on other traction. Why is it apparently prohibited on 800s ?

 

[Dai Corner]

True. But it's not unusual for non-operating crew to 'back/middle cab' when pass-ing or commuting on other traction. Why is it apparently prohibited on 800s ?

Can't have the staff seated more comfortably than the passengers, can we?

 

[TractiveEffort]

True. But it's not unusual for non-operating crew to 'back/middle cab' when pass-ing or commuting on other traction. Why is it apparently prohibited on 800s ?

Not allowed on GWR HST’s either, only TRI’s authorised to travel in rear powercar.

 

[FlippyFF]

Not allowed on GWR HST’s either, only TRI’s authorised to travel in rear powercar.

TRI?

Simon

 

[FGW_DID]

TRI = Traction Riding Inspector.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not allowed on GWR HST’s either, only TRI’s authorised to travel in rear powercar.

That's a fire thing isn't though? Extinguisher bottles can go off automatically in the trailing Power Car which could have potentially fatal consequences for the person back there.

 

[Intercity Exec]

That used to be the case but the rule seems to have remained. Powercars used to have Halon fire systems, which, although fire suppressive could indeed suffocate anyone in a confined environment, hence why the fire system doesn't just go off in the leading Powercar, it needs to be triggered. The idea being a Driver would have been in the process of escaping when the trigger occured. The newer systems are Inergen. If I remember correctly it is made up of Argon, Carbon Dioxide and Nitrogen and when released mixes with normal air and reduces the volume of oxygen in the local atmosphere to prevent combustion, yet enough oxygen to breathe. This air mix just disperses to the atmosphere in a short space of time and is fully natural so doesn't harm the environment.

 

[choochoochoo]

That used to be the case but the rule seems to have remained. Powercars used to have Halon fire systems, which, although fire suppressive could indeed suffocate anyone in a confined environment, hence why the fire system doesn't just go off in the leading Powercar, it needs to be triggered. The idea being a Driver would have been in the process of escaping when the trigger occured. The newer systems are Inergen. If I remember correctly it is made up of Argon, Carbon Dioxide and Nitrogen and when released ices with normal air and reduces the volume of oxygen in the local atmosphere to prevent combustion, yet enough oxygen to breathe. This air mix just disperses to the atmosphere in a short space of time and is fully natural so doesn't harm the environment.

Thanks. So it's a legacy rule rather than a specific quirk of the 800s ?