GWR Class 800

[Master29]

Performance is not great and congestion is often cited. It also takes a long time to recover from any delays despite over £1bn spent around Reading and Hayes trying to relieve it. The difficulties around splitting and joining as well as doubling up on crew don't make it worth it.

You lose almost 20% of your Standard Class seats by running as 2x5 than 1x10 that means per seat the train is 20% more expensive.

You aren't ordering 700 seats on the "off chance" just spend a few minutes at Reading in the rush hour.

I don't know why you try to be so patronising when everyone can see the industry has got this wrong so many times before.

Also to mention I feel there should be a greater 9 car IEP ratio. There will be on the East Coast. Why are 2/3rds on the GWR 5 car on both 8008`s and 802`s and as you say what a waste of room with 2 unused kitchens at weekends on a 2x5 800. It seems most services are going to be 2x5 anyway so how can this be less economical given that 10 coaches have 6 engines as opposed to 5 on a 9. Surely make more sense. Still, what do I know?

 

[dp21]

I know I'm a bit late but I need a TLA buster. VCB?

Apologies, as has been said above, Vacuum Circuit Breaker. It essentially acts as the main isolation point for the 25kV entering the train. With the VCB open you're not going anywhere in electric mode!

 

[jimm]

It seems most services are going to be 2x5 anyway

Oh really? The 800s and 802s delivered or on order for GWR work out to 35 nine-car and 58 five-car.

That''s 35 nine-car sets, as against about 50 HSTs that GWR had in service on weekdays until recently - so a lot of services most certainly will be worked by a big long train.

A number of GWR's HSTs have been spending most of their days working trains that need capacity more like that of a 180, not an HST.

The new fleet reflects that fact. It reflects that loadings at the outer ends of some routes are nothing like what they are closer to Paddington, allowing the ability to shorten the formations at an appropriate location. It allows frequencies to be stepped up to Bristol and Cheltenham in 12 months' time, without running lots of large trains that would never be filled most of the day - even between Reading and London - and it reflects the fact that on many Oxford and Cotswold Line services, IETs are replacing 180s and turbos, not HSTs.

 

[YorkshireBear]

So 35 9 car v 50 HST sets. Lets take 3 off for availability so 32 v 50. We then have 22 5car 802s and 36 5 car 800s. That means effectively 29 5 cars. Take 5 off for availability so 24. 24 + 32 = 56. So actually there seems to be plenty if continuing the current timetable. There will be service increases which we know about but i still see no evidence that there is a lack of stock. Certainly not to the level Cross Country saw when they introduced voyagers.

At the moment the regular 5 vice 10 cars that 'appear' ( I can only go on online hearsay and have no hard facts) to be turning up should not be viewed as a representation of the future. Due to the very complex cascading currently ongoing and the late acceptance of 800s due to delays in electrification I am not surprised to see GWR struggling to provide 10 car services on all diagrams required.

Teething troubles with the 800s in terms of reliability, late acceptance so fewer than planned available, lack of time to train all staff, the GWML building site, losing HSTs for conversion for Scotrail and losing 180s to GC are all combining at the moment. Just like with the class 345s, lets not let early issues take away from what happens. Best to leave the judging for another at least 6 months as everything starts to settle, and possibly even more towards the 12-18 month mark. Until the Electrification is more complete, all the IEPs have been delivered and teething problems sorted and the new timetable has been introduced, it is too early to say whether all those who said it'll be just like operation princess are right or not.

 

[mushroomchow]

The suggestion from those defending shorter sets seems to be that empty seats on trains are a bad thing. They're not. It means there's capacity for growth, and walk-on passengers can find a seat.

The thing with playing Tetris is that, even when you line the blocks up perfectly, there are always more coming.

Why should the network aspire to be just about managing with the capacity it has, rather than properly planning for future growth and giving passengers a more comfortable experience in the process? I'd far rather sit in a half-empty 9-car train with easy to find unreserved seating in off-peak than a nearly full 5-car train, as I'm sure would all but the most agoraphobic travellers.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The suggestion from those defending shorter sets seems to be that empty seats on trains are a bad thing. They're not. It means there's capacity for growth, and walk-on passengers can find a seat.

The thing with playing Tetris is that, even when you line the blocks up perfectly, there are always more coming.

Why should the network aspire to be just about managing with the capacity it has, rather than properly planning for future growth and giving passengers a more comfortable experience in the process? I'd far rather sit in a half-empty 9-car train with easy to find unreserved seating in off-peak than a nearly full 5-car train, as I'm sure would all but the most agoraphobic travellers.

I think the point being made is that even the 5 cars will be half empty off peak so there is plenty of room for growth. I am not personally aware if that is true or not.

 

[Master29]

Oh really? The 800s and 802s delivered or on order for GWR work out to 35 nine-car and 58 five-car.

That''s 35 nine-car sets, as against about 50 HSTs that GWR had in service on weekdays until recently - so a lot of services most certainly will be worked by a big long train.

A number of GWR's HSTs have been spending most of their days working trains that need capacity more like that of a 180, not an HST.

The new fleet reflects that fact. It reflects that loadings at the outer ends of some routes are nothing like what they are closer to Paddington, allowing the ability to shorten the formations at an appropriate location. It allows frequencies to be stepped up to Bristol and Cheltenham in 12 months' time, without running lots of large trains that would never be filled most of the day - even between Reading and London - and it reflects the fact that on many Oxford and Cotswold Line services, IETs are replacing 180s and turbos, not HSTs.

Very clear Jimm. Makes a lot of sense. For 6 months of the year HST`s coming out of cornwall are inevitably packed by the time they get to Plymouth, but for the rest of the year they`re half empty at the same stage. The West of England line can be very fickle.

 

[ainsworth74]

The suggestion from those defending shorter sets seems to be that empty seats on trains are a bad thing. They're not. It means there's capacity for growth, and walk-on passengers can find a seat.

There's having some empty seats to cater for growth and walk-on custom and then there's having four hundred empty seats! By the time you fill those with growth the train will be being retired anyway!!

 

[Railperf]

Just to clarify...are the 800's now working in Electric mode between Reading and Didcot. I'm assuming the issues at Sonning mean they changeover from diesel to electric and V.V at Maidenhead, and possibly Reading now, as well as a further change at Didcot?

 

[JN114]

Just to clarify...are the 800's now working in Electric mode between Reading and Didcot. I'm assuming the issues at Sonning mean they changeover from diesel to electric and V.V at Maidenhead, and possibly Reading now, as well as a further change at Didcot?

No electric running West of Maidenhead until issues at Sonning sorted.

 

[Mag_seven]

No electric running West of Maidenhead until issues at Sonning sorted.

Surely they should have identified that issue during testing and sorted it out before Jan 2nd - or did it not materialise until recently?

 

[jyte]

Surely they should have identified that issue during testing and sorted it out before Jan 2nd - or did it not materialise until recently?

I wonder if it's the same as the issue with electric running between Didcot-Reading (also IIRC to do with Axle counters) that I believe has now been resolved.

 

[JN114]

Surely they should have identified that issue during testing and sorted it out before Jan 2nd - or did it not materialise until recently?

Issue materialised in testing; fix obviously isn’t simple if it’s taken this long (and counting) to fix.

 

[JN114]

I wonder if it's the same as the issue with electric running between Didcot-Reading (also IIRC to do with Axle counters) that I believe has now been resolved.

Very similar symptoms, yes.

 

[cactustwirly]

Does this issue also affect the 387s?

 

[59CosG95]

Does this issue also affect the 387s?

No, they're happily running on Paddington-Didcot services. The problem is, I believe, confined to the AC motor harmonics of the 800s/802s, but they aren't the cause of the problem itself. If they were, more of the Maidenhead-Scours Lane section of OLE would be affected, but as the problem seems to be confined to Sonning Cutting, it's a trackside equipment fault. I suspect it may get done at a weekend, on an emergency posession.

 

[D365]

I'm not involved with the process directly but axle counters have been a long-running issue in terms of compatibility with the 800s.

 

[Master29]

I watched a couple of IEP`s to Temple Meads pass Slough on Railcam this afternoon and both were under diesel power.

 

[FGW_Lad]

First experience of an 800 this morning between Slough & Reading. Acceleration is great and the interior/seats aren't too bad in my opinion. Under electric power until Maidenhead I think as it was on diesel at Reading, are 800's not cleared on the OHLE to Didcot yet?

Edit - sorry have just seen the above posts!

 

[BestWestern]

I watched a couple of IEP`s to Temple Meads pass Slough on Railcam this afternoon and both were under diesel power.

One pair has been operating only on diesel power for a day or so. Panto/electrics issue on one of them apparently.

 

[jyte]

Yeah sadly no IEP traction west of Maidenhead on AC right now.

I believe the nearly identical issue between Didcot and Reading was fixed quite promptly so hopefully the same can be repeated on the Maidenhead-Reading section too.

 

[hassaanhc]

Will avoid!! Glad we've joined the modern world here in Didcot anyway! : )

Yeah that thread is guaranteed to raise your blood pressure and make you angry! Those of us whose routes haven't yet had or have been slow to receive investment in electrification, new trains and more capacity are completely fed up of their entitled whining about not having limousine-style standards, when we have to worry every single morning whether there will even be enough space to board the train. And big deal if your train takes 5 minutes longer and stops at busier stations. Why should the quieter stations at the far ends of the line had their journey times and services prioritised over our busier stations closer to London. If you live that far out then longer journey times to London are a fact of life, and why should your trains be half-empty when we get left behind on the platform?
Rant over

 

[Mordac]

It's been reported elsewhere that Network Rail have replaced the misbehaving cable.

 

[Railperf]

If that is the case why is there no electric running west of Maidenhead for class 800?

 

[cactustwirly]

Yeah that thread is guaranteed to raise your blood pressure and make you angry! Those of us whose routes haven't yet had or have been slow to receive investment in electrification, new trains and more capacity are completely fed up of their entitled whining about not having limousine-style standards, when we have to worry every single morning whether there will even be enough space to board the train. And big deal if your train takes 5 minutes longer and stops at busier stations. Why should the quieter stations at the far ends of the line had their journey times and services prioritised over our busier stations closer to London. If you live that far out then longer journey times to London are a fact of life, and why should your trains be half-empty when we get left behind on the platform?
Rant over

You had the 387s and improved service, so you can't really complain.
Anyway you can travel for peanuts on your Oyster, where others down the line have to pay some extortionate fares especially at peak times.
You also have alternatives such as the Underground and SWR, which others do not have.

We've had to put up with overcrowded and late 165s, whilst you've had brand new 387s and almost new 360s every half an hour, so you can't complain about the service you get.

Rant over

 

[jyte]

If that is the case why is there no electric running west of Maidenhead for class 800?

Presumably because if the cable has been replaced recently they haven't had the chance to test IEP electric traction yet to ensure that the cable is the root cause of the issue and that it has now been resolved?

 

[Nippy]

As Jyte says, it needs to be tested. We have run one this afternoon with no issues, so hopefully that's sorted it.

 

[jon0844]

I hadn't posted before but last week I experienced an 800 for a short ride to Reading and back.

The train came in on platform 11 and there was a mass rush as people went to board, meaning I assume it arrived late.

As a result, the outer screens were showing incorrect/misleading info (causing confusion) and onboard there were no announcements until the train departed to say where it was going. The screens showed nothing other than the carriage letter and time. Seat reservations were off too!

Given the number of leisure travellers, some more information wouldn't have gone amiss. I found myself being asked questions by confused passengers, no doubt because I looked calm, collected and knowledgeable because I wasn't stressed at all. I just wanted to ride the train wherever it went and whenever! Ended up giving people information on when the train arrived at different destinations.

Anyway, back to the train, and it was very comfortable. But the seating and colour scheme doesn't make it look like an Intercity service. It feels very clinical and I suppose not dissimilar to a 374 or any other modern IC service (I'm thinking too of the new ICE trains).

Upon arrival at Reading, I got up and stood in the vestibule and realised that anyone standing there will make the doors keep opening which seems like it would seriously annoy seated passengers nearby. I am not sure why there isn't a button to open the doors. You could say it's one less thing to fail, but sensors can pack up (look at a 365) and then what do you do? When I first boarded, I pressed the door open button for the exterior door given its locality.. wonder how many others will do that?!.

Finally, the doors open quickly compared to the 395s. Thank goodness for that.

Overall, I'd say they're nice trains. A bit boring, but the most important thing is of course being able to move lots of people comfortably and I can't see any issues. It's a shame the reservations system wasn't working as I'd really like to see how the colour coding helps with people finding seats and generally sorting themselves out, compared to the mess on other long distance services.

 

[jayah]

Oh really? The 800s and 802s delivered or on order for GWR work out to 35 nine-car and 58 five-car.

That''s 35 nine-car sets, as against about 50 HSTs that GWR had in service on weekdays until recently - so a lot of services most certainly will be worked by a big long train.

A number of GWR's HSTs have been spending most of their days working trains that need capacity more like that of a 180, not an HST.

The new fleet reflects that fact. It reflects that loadings at the outer ends of some routes are nothing like what they are closer to Paddington, allowing the ability to shorten the formations at an appropriate location. It allows frequencies to be stepped up to Bristol and Cheltenham in 12 months' time, without running lots of large trains that would never be filled most of the day - even between Reading and London - and it reflects the fact that on many Oxford and Cotswold Line services, IETs are replacing 180s and turbos, not HSTs.

Most of their day, not most of their days!

The capacity problem is about the peaks mainly into London but not exclusively. 5 car units immediately result in the Voyager problem, be they at Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham or Bristol at 5pm they are wedged. Into London you also have no paths, so you need maximum capacity per train.

You don't get this by extending platforms for 260m trains and then putting 9 cars worth of seats into a 10 car train and promising your customer you have it covered.

 

[jayah]

Oh really? The 800s and 802s delivered or on order for GWR work out to 35 nine-car and 58 five-car.

That''s 35 nine-car sets, as against about 50 HSTs that GWR had in service on weekdays until recently - so a lot of services most certainly will be worked by a big long train.

A number of GWR's HSTs have been spending most of their days working trains that need capacity more like that of a 180, not an HST.

The new fleet reflects that fact. It reflects that loadings at the outer ends of some routes are nothing like what they are closer to Paddington, allowing the ability to shorten the formations at an appropriate location. It allows frequencies to be stepped up to Bristol and Cheltenham in 12 months' time, without running lots of large trains that would never be filled most of the day - even between Reading and London - and it reflects the fact that on many Oxford and Cotswold Line services, IETs are replacing 180s and turbos, not HSTs.

You can't step up frequency in the peak and in the off peak you end up running 5 car trains twice as often 10 car, with more cost and the same number of empty seats at a different time.