GWR Class 800

[noddy1878]

What happened?

Fatality at Stapleton Road with an ECS to Stoke Gifford. Not exactly sure what happened. Thoughts go out to the driver.

Unfortunately a fair few cancelled trains after that and three Plymouth bound XC services arriving very very late. Just got in myself, 138 late compounded by the temporary speed restriction due to the weather.

 

[59CosG95]

Ish. 800003 is Queen Elizabeth II on one end, and Queen Victoria on the other. 800004 is Ismbard Kingdom Brunel on one end, and Sir Daniel Gooch on the other, but those are the only named ones so far.

Digging this one out again: any news yet on more named GWR units?
So far, all we have are:
800003 "Queen Elizabeth II/Queen Victoria", and
800004 "Isambard Kingdom Brunel/Sir Daniel Gooch".

Given that more of them are now entering squadron service, I do wonder when the next few will be named...

 

[cactustwirly]

I can confirm that the 800s are still using diesel until Maidenhead

 

[Severn40]

Is there any feedback on how the new sets coped with the seasonal holiday traffic? I travelled back on one last Friday and the racks could not cope with demand from large luggage - with many cases left either in the aisle or the vestibules. One passenger was ticked off by the buffet cart for blocking the aisle.

 

[urpert]

Is there any feedback on how the new sets coped with the seasonal holiday traffic? I travelled back on one last Friday and the racks could not cope with demand from large luggage - with many cases left either in the aisle or the vestibules. One passenger was ticked off by the buffet cart for blocking the aisle.

As someone who spent too much time getting on and off 220/222 operated trains with a reasonably-sized suitcase over New Year, I can’t understand how we are still pretending long distance passengers won’t have luggage with them.

 

[jayah]

At the moment, the IEPs are running the existing HST timetable. Only once the new timetable is introduced can you really say whether enough capacity was provided. If passenger numbers increase very quickly to fill the new capacity it seems highly probable that the extra intermediate vehicles will be ordered. The AT300 production line will be open through 2020. From a technical and operational perspective there's no difficulty extending the trains, and I very much doubt Agility Trains is going to put up a fight if the contract needs amended.

If the route is chronically overcrowded why buy lots of new cabs and kitchens? It is more cost effective to run fewer longer trains. The 70 seats makes little noticeable difference.

The track east of Reading is already saturated with trains in the peaks, if anything they should be running fewer not more, as it seems impossible to run them to the current timetable.

Going back to Agility and asking to spend another £100-200m in a couple of years is daft it should have been done right the first time just like the Voyagers, the 185s, the SRA's Northern franchise.... ad infinitum.

 

[Reliablebeam]

Just on an 800 to Taunton thought I would sample the new trains under electric mode, which I've been looking forward to, sad I am.

Shuddered to a halt not far outside Paddington with a noticeable breaking action and a few 'contact the cab' announcements. Moving again now but sat in pantgraph coach and thought I heard a springing twang from the roof. Passed a few times by 387s which I havent tried yet, whooosh, impressive looking machines.

 

[D365]

Passed a few times by 387s which I havent tried yet, whooosh, impressive looking machines.

Try saying that on the Great Northern discussion

 

[jimm]

If the route is chronically overcrowded why buy lots of new cabs and kitchens? It is more cost effective to run fewer longer trains. The 70 seats makes little noticeable difference.

The track east of Reading is already saturated with trains in the peaks, if anything they should be running fewer not more, as it seems impossible to run them to the current timetable.

Going back to Agility and asking to spend another £100-200m in a couple of years is daft it should have been done right the first time just like the Voyagers, the 185s, the SRA's Northern franchise.... ad infinitum.

Who ays "the route" is chronically overcrowded, whatever "the route" means? This week's alteration are merely the first step of three to revise the timetables, with a big GWR shake-up at the end of this year, then Crossrail extending to Reading at the end of 2019 - until all those alterations work through and all the new trains are at work, no one knows how long-term passenger numbers might look - so no one is going to go out ordering 700+ seat monsters, just on the off chance.

I did attempt to point out yesterday, post #6407, that lots of places the IETs will be operating, e.g. the Cotswolds, do not need jumbo trains - because the five-car sets exist, these services will be worked by something that is suited to the job - and can be coupled up for the peak to make big trains when those are needed - which is efficient and cost-effective.

 

[dp21]

Just on an 800 to Taunton thought I would sample the new trains under electric mode, which I've been looking forward to, sad I am.

Shuddered to a halt not far outside Paddington with a noticeable breaking action and a few 'contact the cab' announcements. Moving again now but sat in pantgraph coach and thought I heard a springing twang from the roof. Passed a few times by 387s which I havent tried yet, whooosh, impressive looking machines.

That sounds like the VCB dropping out. Doingggg

 

[Reliablebeam]

Try saying that on the Great Northern discussion

Will avoid!! Glad we've joined the modern world here in Didcot anyway! : )

That sounds like the VCB dropping out. Doingggg

Thanks for the info! We made up time quite nicely and they do go pretty quick under electric mode.

 

[jayah]

Who ays "the route" is chronically overcrowded, whatever "the route" means? This week's alteration are merely the first step of three to revise the timetables, with a big GWR shake-up at the end of this year, then Crossrail extending to Reading at the end of 2019 - until all those alterations work through and all the new trains are at work, no one knows how long-term passenger numbers might look - so no one is going to go out ordering 700+ seat monsters, just on the off chance.

I did attempt to point out yesterday, post #6407, that lots of places the IETs will be operating, e.g. the Cotswolds, do not need jumbo trains - because the five-car sets exist, these services will be worked by something that is suited to the job - and can be coupled up for the peak to make big trains when those are needed - which is efficient and cost-effective.

Performance is not great and congestion is often cited. It also takes a long time to recover from any delays despite over £1bn spent around Reading and Hayes trying to relieve it. The difficulties around splitting and joining as well as doubling up on crew don't make it worth it.

You lose almost 20% of your Standard Class seats by running as 2x5 than 1x10 that means per seat the train is 20% more expensive.

You aren't ordering 700 seats on the "off chance" just spend a few minutes at Reading in the rush hour.

I don't know why you try to be so patronising when everyone can see the industry has got this wrong so many times before.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

You aren't ordering 700 seats on the "off chance" just spend a few minutes at Reading in the rush hour.

Then spend a few minutes at Pershore in mid-afternoon and ask yourself whether 1x10, or 2x5 which can be halved at Oxford, is more sensible.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

One passenger was ticked off by the buffet cart for blocking the aisle.

Self-driving cars are one thing but sentient carts? Rail Gourmet have really upped their game.

 

[jayah]

Then spend a few minutes at Pershore in mid-afternoon and ask yourself whether 1x10, or 2x5 which can be halved at Oxford, is more sensible.

What else are you going to do with it? Delay the train while everyone changes set and pay a driver £70k a year to shuffle it around the station and various sidings for an hour, causing even more delays?

At the moment trains leave Reading for London every 3mins that are so full you cannot get on. That is the problem, not what happens at Pershore.

 

[SamYeager]

Performance is not great and congestion is often cited. It also takes a long time to recover from any delays despite over £1bn spent around Reading and Hayes trying to relieve it. The difficulties around splitting and joining as well as doubling up on crew don't make it worth it.

I realise that you're firmly convinced that the IEPs were the wrong choice but obsessively posting on this forum is not going to change the decision. The rationale for 2x5 has already been explained to you and putting your fingers in your ears to ignore it will not change it.

Even without the complete horlicks and budget overrrun that NR achieved there would be no more money anytime soon. No additional funding is likely to appear until Crossrail starts running to Reading and services can run under electric power to Bristol Parkway/Cardiff for a period of time and even then we may just have to live with it as points north will grab any spare cash.

 

[Dai Corner]

What else are you going to do with it? Delay the train while everyone changes set and pay a driver £70k a year to shuffle it around the station and various sidings for an hour, causing even more delays?

At the moment trains leave Reading for London every 3mins that are so full you cannot get on. That is the problem, not what happens at Pershore.

No you detach it at Oxford and send it back to Paddington, probably attached to another unit which has arrived from the Cotswold line, picking up passengers at Reading on the way.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Precisely, as has been done (on and off) with Turbos successfully for many years now.

 

[jayah]

No you detach it at Oxford and send it back to Paddington, probably attached to another unit which has arrived from the Cotswold line, picking up passengers at Reading on the way.

All of which will involves two shunting trips variously blocking either main running line and isn't going to take much less than an hour to complete if you are lucky.

Given that all the trains to Worcester in the peak already HSTs with 10 vehicles, and have been for years, you are trying very hard to solve a problem that doesn't really exist, while creating several new problems. I would vote any day of the week for 20% more standard class seats from the same number of vehicles.

 

[cactustwirly]

No because overkill is the understatement of the century, when you're sending 10 coaches in the off peak up the Cotswold line.
Have you actually been on these services! A 5 car adelante carries plenty of fresh air, let alone a 10 car IEP!
It's a waste of fuel and capacity that could be used more productively eleswhere!
I think you're overestimating the shunting manoeuvres, should take like 5 minutes in each direction, happens all the time with the terminating turbos, which doesn't cause a problem.

 

[jayah]

No because overkill is the understatement of the century, when you're sending 10 coaches in the off peak up the Cotswold line.
Have you actually been on these services! A 5 car adelante carries plenty of fresh air, let alone a 10 car IEP!
It's a waste of fuel and capacity that could be used more productively eleswhere!
I think you're overestimating the shunting manoeuvres, should take like 5 minutes in each direction, happens all the time with the terminating turbos, which doesn't cause a problem.

Again I think you are far too focused on Pershore.

You will carry fresh air around, as you do already. They have been HSTs since the 1990s and locomotive and coaches before that. Nothing new. Completing the moves at Oxford will take best part of an hour - you certainly aren't going to uncouple at 5pm and couple up at 10 past. It is about 5mins to uncouple, 5 for the first one to leave, 5 more get to the siding, 5 to change ends and the whole thing in reverse. By the time you get the capacity back to London to form another train 3hr later, it isn't the peak any more. As you will want the evening capacity at Hereford and not London for the next morning it is arguable either way. The marginal fuel running to Worcester v.s. parked at Oxford, against having all these trains running around double crewed all day long is pretty thin. On the other hand, yes you have more seats off peak, but the new timetable proposes to adopt many of the expensive failings of others notably West Coast, and run even more services off peak, which is even more expensive than adding seats to the existing ones.

The modernisation is meant to be solving real problems, first and foremost the lack of capacity into London, which it could have done if only the lessons of the Voyagers etc... had been learned and you got best use from the paths that are so precious into London. There shouldn't have been a need to spend even more money, the taxpayer has paid for all the 10 vehicles already.

 

[Dai Corner]

Which helps to alleviate the lack of capacity into London? Running five coaches empty from Oxford to Worcester and back or running them at least partially full to Paddington and back?

 

[jayah]

Which helps to alleviate the lack of capacity into London? Running five coaches empty from Oxford to Worcester and back or running them at least partially full to Paddington and back?

The lack of capacity is only in one direction at a time. If the unit is parked at Oxford, going back to London, or continuing to Worcester it doesn't make any difference where it matters.

The GW order seems to be for 21x9, 36x9, 14x9, 22x5 in other words far more full length trainsets than there were HSTs and 180s and with very few if any peak paths going spare, it is more seats per path you need and more than just 70.

 

[jimm]

All of which will involves two shunting trips variously blocking either main running line and isn't going to take much less than an hour to complete if you are lucky.

Given that all the trains to Worcester in the peak already HSTs with 10 vehicles, and have been for years, you are trying very hard to solve a problem that doesn't really exist, while creating several new problems. I would vote any day of the week for 20% more standard class seats from the same number of vehicles.

If - and it remains an if at this point - in future some IET formations divide and join at Oxford, that will be done in the platforms in a few minutes - just the same as has happened with Turbos for the past 24 years. Shunt moves out of the down side sidings do not block the main line for an hour, but I assume you know that anyway, so why post nonsense?

Yes, of course the Cotswold Line peak trains to London in the morning and back in the late afternoon and early evening are HSTs, because the loadings at those times of the day need a high-capacity train - but you seem utterly unwilling to listen to anyone who tries to point out the monumental stupidity of running trains with seats for 550+ people, never mind 650 or something north of 700, on this route, and to other places, the rest of the time.

The services going the other way at those times of day, the off-peak services and most of the weekend trains do not need hundreds and hundreds of seats, because there simply aren't hundreds and hundreds of passengers travelling to and from the largely rural areas and two small cities the line serves past Oxford all day, every day. GWR has not run off-peak HSTs to Hereford in recent years because they are what's needed, but because there was nothing else more suitable in the fleet, with just a handful of 180s available in the past few years.

Just because you perceive there to be a problem between Reading and London - not that you seem willing to wait and see what the impact will be of the new 387 services from this week, the extra capacity more IET services with higher frequencies on most routes will offer as part of the big GWR timetable change at the end of next year, with Crossrail to come after that - does not mean that should dictate the shape of the entire GWR long-distance train fleet for the next 30 or 40 years and saddle the operator with monster trains that are simply not what's needed.

Which is why something else got ordered instead.

 

[cactustwirly]

Again I think you are far too focused on Pershore.

You will carry fresh air around, as you do already. They have been HSTs since the 1990s and locomotive and coaches before that. Nothing new. Completing the moves at Oxford will take best part of an hour - you certainly aren't going to uncouple at 5pm and couple up at 10 past. It is about 5mins to uncouple, 5 for the first one to leave, 5 more get to the siding, 5 to change ends and the whole thing in reverse. By the time you get the capacity back to London to form another train 3hr later, it isn't the peak any more. As you will want the evening capacity at Hereford and not London for the next morning it is arguable either way. The marginal fuel running to Worcester v.s. parked at Oxford, against having all these trains running around double crewed all day long is pretty thin. On the other hand, yes you have more seats off peak, but the new timetable proposes to adopt many of the expensive failings of others notably West Coast, and run even more services off peak, which is even more expensive than adding seats to the existing ones.

The modernisation is meant to be solving real problems, first and foremost the lack of capacity into London, which it could have done if only the lessons of the Voyagers etc... had been learned and you got best use from the paths that are so precious into London. There shouldn't have been a need to spend even more money, the taxpayer has paid for all the 10 vehicles already.

The HSTs are still overkill, if GWR had more turbos or 180s then there wouldn't have been so many HSTs up the Cotswold line.
Why waste fuel and money (remember that a 9 car IEP is more expensive to lease and maintain than a 5 car) for extra capacity that isn't needed.

Here's an idea, how about we order smaller trains which can be attached and detached to provide the optimum capacity on the sections where it is needed. Like 444s on the Weymouth route.
The same idea can be applied to the Penzance route in the Winter, Golden Valley line, Cardiff to Swansea etc

Reading doesn't have any problems in the off-peak tbh

 

[jyte]

I know I'm a bit late but I need a TLA buster. VCB?

 

[samuelmorris]

Vacuum Circuit Breaker

 

[jyte]

Vacuum Circuit Breaker

Cheers

 

[Bayum]

Are the 800s now running further south and south-west?

 

[JN114]

Are the 800s now running further south and south-west?

No further than Taunton at present; and nominally only via the “main” (Bristol) line - no planned services* via the B&H yet.

*Due to engineering works; certain late evening services are diverting non-stop between Chippenham/Bath and Reading via the B&H.