GWR Class 800

[swt_passenger]

It is a fact, a simple fact as the only route to the GWR from the north is the WLL.

The only change is that the old Eurostar connection re-opened earlier this year from the WLL so trains do not have to get into the depot from the new GWR connection via the WLL.

I think it was fair to assume that Leomartin was referring to the part of the WLL south of the GWML as alway being used in the overall context though...

 

[E_Reeves]

Just looked on a train logging website I use and somebody has logged a sighting of 802001. I didn't think they were in the country yet so is this a mistake? It was seen at Millbrook.

 

[FGW_DID]

Just looked on a train logging website I use and somebody has logged a sighting of 802001. I didn't think they were in the country yet so is this a mistake? It was seen at Millbrook.

At least two vehicles, if not all, of a Class 802 have been delivered to Southampton Docks. Unsure if it is confirmed as being 802001 or somebody is just assuming it is as it's the first to arrive.

Edit: mentioned and link back in post #4532 but no confirmation of number

 

[800001]

At least two vehicles, if not all, of a Class 802 have been delivered to Southampton Docks. Unsure if it is confirmed as being 802001 or somebody is just assuming it is as it's the first to arrive.

Edit: mentioned and link back in post #4532 but no confirmation of number

802001 arrived at Southampton on 17th June. Big article in the latest Rail Magazine out tomorrow.

 

[Bornin1980s]

October is the target.
They are still not approved for working under the GW OHLE.

When was the target moved from July to October? And will this affect the timescale for introduction on the ECML? According to my Platform 5 book, construction actually began in 2013. That would make some sets nearly five years old by the time they carry passengers.

 

[superkev]

It's a good job it didn't take so long to test Lancaster bombers. You could have a whole war in the time it takes to test modern trains. How many test can they conjure up.
K

 

[leomartin125]

It's a good job it didn't take so long to test Lancaster bombers. You could have a whole war in the time it takes to test modern trains. How many test can they conjure up.
K

It's not just testing the new train type, as it's a brand new Class type. It's also new OLE, and the mixture of the two means a lot of testing is required to ensure safe running, never an easy task. I've seen photos recently on Flickr of 800001 and 800002 running in double formation on the ECML on the juice, but not seen much activity on the juice on the GWML. I can only presume the overnight testing between Didcot and Reading recently has been to test this, although this hasn't occurred recently (to my knowledge?).

Regarding the WLL, to clarify what I was meaning... I had seen a fair few runs from North Pole Jct to Doncaster Carr IEP Depot and the likes since the start of this year really (on RTT). I remember having to check both North Pole Jct and North Pole IEP Depot to see the testing moves, rather than just North Pole IEP Depot on RTT.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When was the target moved from July to October? And will this affect the timescale for introduction on the ECML? According to my Platform 5 book, construction actually began in 2013. That would make some sets nearly five years old by the time they carry passengers.

If you read Roger Ford's piece in July Modern Railways (p36), he says the acceptance programme is running late because of the GW OHLE interface issues (Series 1).
7 units are now planned to be operational in October (was supposed to be 20).
There will also be delays to introduction on the ECML.

Multiple posts on here about IEPs whizzing up and down the network on diesel don't count for much, if the train and OHLE don't match.
The inference is that the Series 1 power supply is troublesome, with the IEP traction system having to be modified to cope with it (ie it is not necessarily an IEP fault, but it is more easily fixed on the train).
Old hands can think back to Eurostar class 373 acceptance for a parallel.

 

[JN114]

It's a good job it didn't take so long to test Lancaster bombers. You could have a whole war in the time it takes to test modern trains. How many test can they conjure up.
K

Although if you want to use the aviation analogy Ill remind you it was over 7 years between Concorde's first flight and entry into scheduled passenger service. In terms of ground-breaking technology the two project were very similar.

 

[Mordac]

Once GWR electrification catches up, possibly in the next franchise, would it be feasible to convert the 800/3s that were ordered as pure EMU 801s to that specification? How easy would this be?

 

[Spod]

The inference is that the Series 1 power supply is troublesome, with the IEP traction system having to be modified to cope with it (ie it is not necessarily an IEP fault, but it is more easily fixed on the train).
Old hands can think back to Eurostar class 373 acceptance for a parallel.

The information is appreciated, but this confuses me. I wouldn't have thought they'd deny anything but Class 800 (etc.) access to these wires, so why can't they make the wires universally usable? There must be some peculiarity of the Class 800 that means other unrelated classes don't need these modifications?
Can anyone explain why the Class 800 traction system, which seems fine with ECML wiring, should have a problem with Series 1 OHLE which is presumably in spec*?
*If it's not in spec, why don't they fix the wiring instead of modifying the trains? Is the train modification just a workaround until they can get the wiring fixed?
Thanks.

 

[swt_passenger]

...convert the 800/3s that were ordered as pure EMU 801s to that specification? How easy would this be?

Yes, conversion of bi-mode to full electric has been a consistent requirement of the various published published specifications, the latest wording seems to have been in 2013:

TS1968
A Bi-mode IEP Unit must be capable of being readily modified to an Electric IEP Unit at a future date by the removal of Self Power Sources from one or more IEP Vehicles.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The information is appreciated, but this confuses me. I wouldn't have thought they'd deny anything but Class 800 (etc.) access to these wires, so why can't they make the wires universally usable? There must be some peculiarity of the Class 800 that means other unrelated classes don't need these modifications?
Can anyone explain why the Class 800 traction system, which seems fine with ECML wiring, should have a problem with Series 1 OHLE which is presumably in spec*?
*If it's not in spec, why don't they fix the wiring instead of modifying the trains? Is the train modification just a workaround until they can get the wiring fixed?
Thanks.

You'd have to ask Roger Ford, but the word he uses is "resonance" in the power supply system, affecting the IEP traction package.
Naturally, the main parties are not saying anything beyond the reduced introduction programme, but the delays are evident.
Whenever you modify critical components, testing has to start again, and the DfT/GWR will not want to accept a diesel-only train.

The GW Series 1, and its power supply, is a completely new design, is sized for 140mph with multiple pantographs, and has autotransformers.
The older ECML wiring has none of that.
Meanwhile 387s (at 110mph) do not seem to suffer the same problems, although they are not yet in squadron service.
I'm not sure if autotransformers are operational east of Maidenhead yet.
The IEP testing has been on Tilehurst-Didcot, which is so equipped.

 

[gsnedders]

*If it's not in spec, why don't they fix the wiring instead of modifying the trains? Is the train modification just a workaround until they can get the wiring fixed?

Because if it's a million pound project to fix the wiring to meet spec versus a couple thousand pounds per train of a single series of trains, then the average taxpayer would probably prefer the latter, spec be damned. The fact it doesn't quite meet spec can be documented and any future stock can avoid the issue. Note the different systems on different series of trains react differently to out-of-spec supply, and it's entirely plausible that every other piece of stock coincidentally copes with this fine; the IEP is ultimately a brand new design and all of that is new.

 

[JN114]

You'd have to ask Roger Ford, but the word he uses is "resonance" in the power supply system, affecting the IEP traction package.
Naturally, the main parties are not saying anything beyond the reduced introduction programme, but the delays are evident.
Whenever you modify critical components, testing has to start again, and the DfT/GWR will not want to accept a diesel-only train.

The GW Series 1, and its power supply, is a completely new design, is sized for 140mph with multiple pantographs, and has autotransformers.
The older ECML wiring has none of that.
Meanwhile 387s (at 110mph) do not seem to suffer the same problems, although they are not yet in squadron service.
I'm not sure if autotransformers are operational east of Maidenhead yet.
The IEP testing has been on Tilehurst-Didcot, which is so equipped.

ATF has been in use East of Maidenhead for about 2 weeks, give or take. 387s have no issues running on Series 1 with ATF - the problem is squarely with IETs.

 

[JN114]

Because if it's a million pound project to fix the wiring to meet spec versus a couple thousand pounds per train of a single series of trains, then the average taxpayer would probably prefer the latter, spec be damned. The fact it doesn't quite meet spec can be documented and any future stock can avoid the issue. Note the different systems on different series of trains react differently to out-of-spec supply, and it's entirely plausible that every other piece of stock coincidentally copes with this fine; the IEP is ultimately a brand new design and all of that is new.

Also other electric traction works on Series 1; the issue is only with IETs. Any "fix" to the OHL could "break" it for other traction types.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Also other electric traction works on Series 1; the issue is only with IETs. Any "fix" to the OHL could "break" it for other traction types.

I don't think we've seen traction other than 387s yet on the test section though.
Putting a 90/91/92 or 390/395 through at max performance might be interesting.

 

[ac6000cw]

I don't think we've seen traction other than 387s yet on the test section though.
Putting a 90/91/92 or 390/395 through at max performance might be interesting.

A pair of 88s maybe (with enough load to give them something to work at)?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A pair of 88s maybe (with enough load to give them something to work at)?

I missed those off because I don't think they have enough operational history behind them yet, but yes, they will work on the GW one day.
Class 92s were particularly troublesome, being required to work on Kent DC routes and the WCML on AC.
Both infrastructure and traction package changes were necessary to make them (and 373s) work.
It will be very interesting how the IEP saga turns out, as it could cost somebody a lot of money to fix.

 

[ac6000cw]

I missed those off because I don't think they have enough operational history behind them yet, but yes, they will work on the GW one day.

I was thinking about them because they represent modern AC drive technology (rather than 25 year old stuff - in design terms - like the 92s), and they are 4MW per loco.

 

[AlexNL]

It would be interesting to send a 395 down the GWML as they're related to the 800's.

 

[squizzler]

It's a good job it didn't take so long to test Lancaster bombers. You could have a whole war in the time it takes to test modern trains. How many test can they conjure up.
K

It might have taken quite a bit longer to get the Lancaster in service if Bomber Command had their airframes come from Japan, and fitted German engines. Unlike today's Hitachi bi-modes, they also did not enjoy the opportunity to build follow-on orders in an Italian factory to make use of production capacity.

The gestation time for the F35, Eurofighter Typhoon and other modern warplanes is considerably longer than train platforms. The Russians are still bringing into service planes that are evolutions of their 1980's Su-27's.

 

[Typhoon_93]

It would be interesting to send a 395 down the GWML as they're related to the 800's.

May have some gauging issues due to 395's being 3rd rail shoe fitted.

 

[bgstrowger]

May have some gauging issues due to 395's being 3rd rail shoe fitted.

So are the Class 387s and the shoes are retractable, so that shouldn't be an issue. More likely paperwork issues and Southeastern not wanting to be a unit short.

 

[jimm]

So are the Class 387s and the shoes are retractable, so that shouldn't be an issue. More likely paperwork issues and Southeastern not wanting to be a unit short.

And there being no point whatever in a 395 appearing on the GWML...

 

[leomartin125]

So, Newton Aycliffe Hitachi Factory... where do I start?

I have a predictable lack of pictures of the inside, with photography completely prohibited - I didn't ask why. However it is impressive, and just shows how quickly the production line is moving, plenty of Scotrail 385's in production and T37 and T38 have wheelsets. Managed to get into an IEP and test out the standard class seating, the set was very incomplete and only had the driving unit but the interior was complete. I was surprised by the legroom, which is more than on a HST but the seats were a bit uncomfortable if I were to be travelling to Penzance or Plymouth. Swansea would be manageable. The cab has a huge layout of buttons, and is quite impressive, and very similar to the Class 395. I could tell the second mans seat was Hitachi, it looked remarkably similar to a Class 395 standard class seat. The cab itself is much more spacious than a HST, and I would be happy to drive in it, and a train driver who was also on my tour stated he was impressed with the space.

My overall opinion is that it is great, a little out of the way, with Heighington (the local station) only having me getting off upon arrival and me getting on upon departure. The test track is interesting, and there is easy access to great views of the IEP's on test, with a unit out whilst I was there testing the changeover of the power supply between electric and diesel. I have lots of pictures and videos taken from outside the facility, which I will upload in due course. I also managed to see and catch 800015 on departure from the factory on delivery to Hitachi for testing, I believe it made it as far as Willesden Jct according to RTT so my best guess would be it's at North Pole IEP Depot now.

Hopefully next visit will be Doncaster Carr IEP Depot later this year, where I may be able to get a closer look at the GWR 9 Car Units I saw on my way up.

Link to photos:
http://flic.kr/s/aHsktrCkCg

 

[Bornin1980s]

How hard are the seats?

 

[800001]

So, Newton Aycliffe Hitachi Factory... where do I start?

I have a predictable lack of pictures of the inside, with photography completely prohibited - I didn't ask why. However it is impressive, and just shows how quickly the production line is moving, plenty of Scotrail 385's in production and T37 and T38 have wheelsets. Managed to get into an IEP and test out the standard class seating, the set was very incomplete and only had the driving unit but the interior was complete. I was surprised by the legroom, which is more than on a HST but the seats were a bit uncomfortable if I were to be travelling to Penzance or Plymouth. Swansea would be manageable. The cab has a huge layout of buttons, and is quite impressive, and very similar to the Class 395. I could tell the second mans seat was Hitachi, it looked remarkably similar to a Class 395 standard class seat. The cab itself is much more spacious than a HST, and I would be happy to drive in it, and a train driver who was also on my tour stated he was impressed with the space.

My overall opinion is that it is great, a little out of the way, with Heighington (the local station) only having me getting off upon arrival and me getting on upon departure. The test track is interesting, and there is easy access to great views of the IEP's on test, with a unit out whilst I was there testing the changeover of the power supply between electric and diesel. I have lots of pictures and videos taken from outside the facility, which I will upload in due course. I also managed to see and catch 800015 on departure from the factory on delivery to Hitachi for testing, I believe it made it as far as Willesden Jct according to RTT so my best guess would be it's at North Pole IEP Depot now.

Hopefully next visit will be Doncaster Carr IEP Depot later this year, where I may be able to get a closer look at the GWR 9 Car Units I saw on my way up.

Link to photos:
http://flic.kr/s/aHsktrCkCg

Leo do you you mean T27 and T28 fitted with wheelsets? T27 was the cab we were allowed in, T38 isnt at factctory, T35 was what was arriving on the morning we were there?

 

[Typhoon_93]

So, Newton Aycliffe Hitachi Factory... where do I start?

I have a predictable lack of pictures of the inside, with photography completely prohibited - I didn't ask why. However it is impressive, and just shows how quickly the production line is moving, plenty of Scotrail 385's in production and T37 and T38 have wheelsets. Managed to get into an IEP and test out the standard class seating, the set was very incomplete and only had the driving unit but the interior was complete. I was surprised by the legroom, which is more than on a HST but the seats were a bit uncomfortable if I were to be travelling to Penzance or Plymouth. Swansea would be manageable. The cab has a huge layout of buttons, and is quite impressive, and very similar to the Class 395. I could tell the second mans seat was Hitachi, it looked remarkably similar to a Class 395 standard class seat. The cab itself is much more spacious than a HST, and I would be happy to drive in it, and a train driver who was also on my tour stated he was impressed with the space.

My overall opinion is that it is great, a little out of the way, with Heighington (the local station) only having me getting off upon arrival and me getting on upon departure. The test track is interesting, and there is easy access to great views of the IEP's on test, with a unit out whilst I was there testing the changeover of the power supply between electric and diesel. I have lots of pictures and videos taken from outside the facility, which I will upload in due course. I also managed to see and catch 800015 on departure from the factory on delivery to Hitachi for testing, I believe it made it as far as Willesden Jct according to RTT so my best guess would be it's at North Pole IEP Depot now.

Hopefully next visit will be Doncaster Carr IEP Depot later this year, where I may be able to get a closer look at the GWR 9 Car Units I saw on my way up.

Link to photos:
http://flic.kr/s/aHsktrCkCg

Good morning Leo

The IEP's inside must have been T27/T28 as the replacement set for T37 isn't here yet and T38 is at Doncaster with T39 and neither have ventured out onto the main line yet.

The unit out on Test on Friday was 800016.

On Thursday the GWR green 9car outside the depot at Doncaster between the depot and the mainline was T38

 

[leomartin125]

Good morning Leo

The IEP's inside must have been T27/T28 as the replacement set for T37 isn't here yet and T38 is at Doncaster with T39 and neither have ventured out onto the main line yet.

The unit out on Test on Friday was 800016.

On Thursday the GWR green 9car outside the depot at Doncaster between the depot and the mainline was T38

Yes, my mistake. I meant T27 and T28. I saw 800014 outside, and was actually expecting that to be the unit that would be delivered, whereas in fact 800015 was the unit that left Newton Aycliffe on Friday evening. I remember seeing 800027 inside the cab I sat in, so that clears it up.

Is the 9 car set at Hitachi Newton Aycliffe a Class 801? If not, then why aren't GWR having it any longer?

The seats aren't hard, but they aren't as comfy as I would have hoped.