GWR Class 800

[Clansman]

Nice to see the Virgin IEPs are finally on their way. Is there anywhere which documents the specification of the buffet - such as location, design etc?

Heard nothing on this so far, and it's not available on any seating plans either due to them corresponding to the GWR IEPs.

 

[455driver]

I'd be interested whether or not 800001/800002 are back out following last week's damage.

Yes they are, noted on Reading depot with headlights on around midday today.

 

[ExTankieAaron]

Nice to see the Virgin IEPs are finally on their way. Is there anywhere which documents the specification of the buffet - such as location, design etc?

Heard nothing on this so far, and it's not available on any seating plans either due to them corresponding to the GWR IEPs.

Well for VTEC I can tell you that the main catering car is in the middle of the DPTF car. London End. That's a very big kitchen.
The middle cars have a small galley style kitchen that's more set up for sandwiches and coffee and storage for trolleys.

GWR so far have not put the middle galley kitchen in and just have trolly storage and service areas. As well as the main kitchen on the DPTF.

 

[ainsworth74]

GWR so far have not put the middle galley kitchen in and just have trolly storage and service areas. As well as the main kitchen on the DPTF.

It'll be interesting to see if that continues on the sets that they've ordered themselves.

 

[leomartin125]

I'd be interested whether or not 800001/800002 are back out following last week's damage.

Yup, it was 800001 and 800002, and was too late anyway as I was in Swindon by the time it got to Reading. Have seen them hundreds of times now, be good to see them in GWR livery at some point. They had an issue at North Pole IEP Depot this morning, I thought it was something to do with the units, however a quick look on Tyrell reveiled a points failure just outside the depot was to blame, hence the late running.

 

[Clansman]

Well for VTEC I can tell you that the main catering car is in the middle of the DPTF car. London End. That's a very big kitchen.
The middle cars have a small galley style kitchen that's more set up for sandwiches and coffee and storage for trolleys.

GWR so far have not put the middle galley kitchen in and just have trolly storage and service areas. As well as the main kitchen on the DPTF.

I was aware that the kitchen was in the DPTF (pretty obvious just by looking at the trains themselves), but where exactly will the standard class buffet counter be located? Or the "shop", should I say.

Seems pointless that given VTEC are having a standard class shop, that it isn't integrated with the kitchen at a dividing point between first and standard class - not doing so creates unnecessary interior layouts.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I was aware that the kitchen was in the DPTF (pretty obvious just by looking at the trains themselves), but where exactly will the standard class buffet counter be located? Or the "shop", should I say.

Seems pointless that given VTEC are having a standard class shop, that it isn't integrated with the kitchen at a dividing point between first and standard class - not doing so creates unnecessary interior layouts.

There's an issue in using the very end of the driving carriages for passenger accommodation. Putting the kitchen there means you don't waste any space.

 

[Domh245]

I was aware that the kitchen was in the DPTF (pretty obvious just by looking at the trains themselves), but where exactly will the standard class buffet counter be located? Or the "shop", should I say.

Seems pointless that given VTEC are having a standard class shop, that it isn't integrated with the kitchen at a dividing point between first and standard class - not doing so creates unnecessary interior layouts.

So just like the pendolinos then, with the kitchen in one driving car and the shop in the pantograph car on the other end? A sensible place to have the shop would be ~halfway through the standard class accomodation

 

[47802]

There's an issue in using the very end of the driving carriages for passenger accommodation. Putting the kitchen there means you don't waste any space.

Looking at the IEP daft layout I don't think that's actually the case the kitchen doesn't appear to be in any part of the train that isn't used as passenger accommodation in the driving trailer that doesn't have a kitchen.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Maybe they're allowed to put Standard Class passengers in more danger!

 

[Bletchleyite]

So just like the pendolinos then, with the kitchen in one driving car and the shop in the pantograph car on the other end? A sensible place to have the shop would be ~halfway through the standard class accomodation

Until it's the weekend, then First Class passengers have to walk rather a long way to get their freebies.

 

[IanXC]

Until it's the weekend, then First Class passengers have to walk rather a long way to get their freebies.

:roll:

Clearly you wouldn't set the weekend First Class service up like this if your stock was laid out in that way!

 

[jimm]

It'll be interesting to see if that continues on the sets that they've ordered themselves.

There has never been any indication that there will be a shop/buffet on the GWR 802s - it would get pretty confusing for passengers if some trains had a buffet and others didn't, given that some routes will see a mix of Class 800s and 802s on their services.

The Introducing the New Intercity Express Train brochure GWR produced last year says in a long list of things about the trains: "At-seat food and drink is served in first and standard class from better-equipped kitchens".

So presumably something along the lines of XC's recent offering, with the ability to order a hot meal in advance or on board to be brought to your seat, plus regular trolley fare in standard or the first class complementaries - which of course on GWR isn't much more than drinks and snacks.

There is a double-page spread about food and drink in the IET brochure as well but that is mostly about them buying from local producers and the Pullman dining offer.

 

[ExTankieAaron]

I was aware that the kitchen was in the DPTF (pretty obvious just by looking at the trains themselves), but where exactly will the standard class buffet counter be located? Or the "shop", should I say.

Seems pointless that given VTEC are having a standard class shop, that it isn't integrated with the kitchen at a dividing point between first and standard class - not doing so creates unnecessary interior layouts.

Well have a couple of 5car 801s and the snack bar is in car 3. Yet to see a 9 801.

 

[ExTankieAaron]

Maybe they're allowed to put Standard Class passengers in more danger!

DPTF passengers are right behind the driver car door.

 

[reddragon]

There has never been any indication that there will be a shop/buffet on the GWR 802s - it would get pretty confusing for passengers if some trains had a buffet and others didn't, given that some routes will see a mix of Class 800s and 802s on their services.

No different to the more mixed formations on the current HSTs

 

[jimm]

No different to the more mixed formations on the current HSTs

All the GWR HSTs have a buffet counter in their formation, whether that be in a kitchen-buffet coach or a mini-buffet in a standard class coach.

IF GWR had opted to have a buffet/shop in the 802s, that would make them different to the 800s, where the DfT has decreed that the sets for the GW area must be built to their specification, so no buffet.

 

[47802]

All the GWR HSTs have a buffet counter in their formation, whether that be in a kitchen-buffet coach or a mini-buffet in a standard class coach.

IF GWR had opted to have a buffet/shop in the 802s, that would make them different to the 800s, where the DfT has decreed that the sets for the GW area must be built to their specification, so no buffet.

You know this for certain do you? since the 800s are built to a DFT specification while the 802's are being built to First Group specification and will have a different technical spec so there would seem to be no reason why they couldn't have a different interior spec as well providing they meet the franchise agreement.

 

[RichW1]

They should have researched Germany's class ICE 4 as the classic compatible service equivalent. Much better trains, and now the 800 is awful. There is no comparison. The 800 was conceived in a mess and is being delivered as a half-hearted attempt to replace the HST's. The 91's are better than this already. With the lazy design too, it is sad what we are getting. If they had based the outside body shell on the Pendolino (not the ride quality) it would be a damn sight better.

 

[D365]

RWW, I've noticed that you've been slating the SETs in several different discussions now. Would you care to elaborate on what aspects of the design are 'lazy'?

 

[RichW1]

RWW, I've noticed that you've been slating the SETs in several different discussions now. Would you care to elaborate on what aspects of the design are 'lazy'?

Fair comment and certainly - There are several gripes, but by far the biggest is the very lazy attention to aesthetics between the coaches - not only is everything over exposed, but the distances between the coaches are in no way disguised and it looks very ugly. But more than this, the huge one is the great gaping gap and under the coaches between each - look at the 91s and mark 4 sets - look at the Pendolino, look at the German ICE 4 equivalent, Italian classic line trains being brought in, none have such a clunky, thoughtless gap under the coaches where the inner 'clunk' and workings are laid bare with pipes, and wires as well as a tone of fresh air for all to see. There's no attempt at 'wow' factor or streamlining. This is not the norm even with our existing Intercity's - not even with the Voyagers.

So that's my biggest dislike. Then we come to the doors - no other Intercity here or in Europe has them shoved inwards from the ends and I hate the inlay too, and no, I don't care at all for the excuses made for this - the best example of IC trains are in Germany and they don't make this aesthetic carbuncle of an error - neither have we up to now.

Then we come to the front ends - We have a grey skirt which looks like it was an afterthought and is too small - again, if this had been body-coloured it would make a huge aesthetic difference (again, see most IC's in the UK and Europe).

Then we come to the roof - what a dog's breakfast - where's the streamlining? Flat with clunky looking equipment stuck on at either end with further 'bits' between. No attempt (like the area between the coaches underneath) to cover up the 'innards' of the train.

This has been economising to the point where we have a front end (nose should have been longer but that part I agree could be overly picky) that is otherwise ok, but a body where laziness abound.

Notice too, finally, that the area between the wheels dropping between each coach, which should make it look streamlined (and should follow through to the area between the coaches) that even the grey part (again imagine this being body coloured) looks as though it's been stuck on as an afterthought - look at the top of that grey section where it meets the body of the rest of the coach under each - there's a strange gap/line of connection and it is not flush.

The worst thing is, I'm stuck with looking at this until I'm an old man!!

I am praying the high speed stock looks the part, because otherwise we won't have an Intercity train to be proud of in the UK.

Body wise (and not ride wise) the Pendolino is the best looking we have and I can't fault much on that. If the ride matched and wasn't so clunky to ride in, and you could hear the clock tick, I could forgive the lack of room for tilt.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think there are at least 3 reasons for the class 800 features you dislike.
There was a lot of "lightening" engineering to strip weight out of the final product (to meet the DfT spec).
The doors are inset because of the extra taper required at the end of each coach to fit the 26m length to the NR network (and will probably also be needed for HS2 classic compatible vehicles).
The nose came from the class 395 and probably didn't have much new design input.

My recollection of (UK) Pendolino design was that it came from the same UK design team (Priestman) who did Eurostar, and was not "Italian".
Personally, I find the ride of Pendolinos to be very good - there are far worse, IC225 among them.

 

[RichW1]

I think there are at least 3 reasons for the class 800 features you dislike.
There was a lot of "lightening" engineering to strip weight out of the final product (to meet the DfT spec).
The doors are inset because of the extra taper required at the end of each coach to fit the 26m length to the NR network (and will probably also be needed for HS2 classic compatible vehicles).
The nose came from the class 395 and probably didn't have much new design input.

My recollection of (UK) Pendolino design was that it came from the same UK design team (Priestman) who did Eurostar, and was not "Italian".
Personally, I find the ride of Pendolinos to be very good - there are far worse, IC225 among them.

Well that explains a lot. Uniquely British criteria and you get uniquely British carbuncle! Although he doors being inset I don't understand, there is body work in place of where you'd expect the doors to usually be, so why can this not be door space instead? Not sure I get the taper point and why that restricts door location.

The covers between coaches to cover empty space and machinery, you would think a few fibreglass lightweight panels would hardly kill them!!

As for the front, well yes, it's tragic that as I said, no-one cares about looks anymore (not in the UK). The Pendolinos however look great.

Ride quality on Pendolino better than a 225? I can't agree there, as Pendolino's keep clunking underneath when they tilt a lot of the time underneath the train and you can hear it, the high pitched sound when ideally you want as near to silence as possible (I accept 225's now do this as well with these damn AC motors which have done nothing for the passenger). But the space, and quite ride I'd take in a 225 over a Pendolino any day.

I think everyone's forgotten what Intercity's used to sound like - everything's become louder and more plastic over time, also making way for the millions of rattles on a Pendolino from the window blinds to the ceiling hanging off half the time and other plastic parts.

 

[Mag_seven]

The BR Mark III's were the best coaches ever built sound wise - they really glide along. The mark IV's were noticeably noisier. And your point about Class 390 rattling is spot on. We really seem to have gone backwards in terms of internal ambience. (lighting also seems to have gone downhill with harsh bright lights now the norm as opposed to the much softer /dimmer lighting you used to get on for example the 1st class mark III b)

 

[J-2739]

The doors inside is a Japanese thing. They are pressure sealed.

 

[RichW1]

The BR Mark III's were the best coaches ever built sound wise - they really glide along. The mark IV's were noticeably noisier. And your point about Class 390 rattling is spot on. We really seem to have gone backwards in terms of internal ambience. (lighting also seems to have gone downhill with harsh bright lights now the norm as opposed to the much softer /dimmer lighting you used to get on for example the 1st class mark III b)

Oh the days of soft lighting, muted tones, 'sprung' seats, ambience that made first class as well, feel first class. They should have learned from this and evolved. In Germany, you still have this on the ICE trains, and the interiors are exemplary. We just deal with plastic people who implement plastic worlds they have inhabited growing up. Very sad, and they have no reference points.

 

[RichW1]

The doors inside is a Japanese thing. They are pressure sealed.

Doors don't need to be recessed. Any high speed train shows this. We just got an economy option.

 

[JamesT]

Doors don't need to be recessed. Any high speed train shows this. We just got an economy option.

Apart from, er, the Shinkansen trains which use sliding doors at high speed. It's not the cheap option, it's the option that gives the shortest dwell times.

 

[RichW1]

Apart from, er, the Shinkansen trains which use sliding doors at high speed. It's not the cheap option, it's the option that gives the shortest dwell times.

Intercity doesn't need to focus on dwell times and it is so marginal as to be ridiculous. No mainland European train does this, many Chinese don't do this, and this is a classic line train, not high speed and not Shinkansen.

 

[najaB]

So, just so we're clear: your entire criticism is that you don't like the way they look. Gotcha. Next, please.