GWR Class 800

[po8crg]

USB-C ports are much higher-power than USB-A, and will provide enough power to charge a laptop. Mobile phone manufacturers have agreed on the new standard, and new phones will start appearing with USB-C instead of USB-micro-B, probably starting with high-end smartphones late this year, and becoming standard by the end of next year.

If you're building a train that won't be in service until 2017, it would make a lot more sense to have USB-C ports (especially in first class where customers are likely to have newer and higher-end phones) from the start. They might be the wrong connector for some people for the first year or two, but better that than having an old connector for years until there's a refit.

(For those interested, the USB-A is the computer-end connection, the USB-B, or mini-B or micro-B is the one on the phone or tablet; full-size B ports are pretty much only used by printers)

 

[jamesontheroad]

I'm actually surprised we haven't had a TOC try the idea of allowing the likes of Starbucks, Caffe Nero, Costa etc to run a service on a train - selling the same things people are very happy to spend their money on at stations, high-streets and shopping centres all over the UK (and abroad).

But what I think would work better is a properly branded on board cafe, with staff wearing uniforms and selling the same products as on the high street (or a subset). Given the large profit margins, I wouldn't even think it wise to inflate prices further - as you'd be after turnover, not a nice profit on the one coffee you'd sell at £3.50 a cup (sadly, what we'd probably end up with).

Starbucks have tried and had little success in expanding their brand with Starbucks VIA instant coffee, which is basically a pretentious attempt at denying instant coffee isn't just instant coffee. It's barely distinguishable from Nescafé and twice the price.

I've often wondered why, with Network Rail's SSP managing so many M&S franchises at mainline stations up and down the country, M&S don't enter the rail catering business, just as Waitrose now supply Eurostar's standard class bistro. Seeing a high quality brand on a range of on-board sandwiches and snacks could encourage many passengers.

However - and this perhaps answers my own question - a big obstacle is that Starbucks, Costa and M&S are highly protective of their brands, and the big risk with on train catering is that coffee from a trolley or sandwiches whichcan travel 500 miles without refrigeration could easily damage a lucrative and profitable brand. One bad sandwich served under understandably different conditions on a train could damage a well established reputation for quality.

 

[Emblematic]

USB-C ports are much higher-power than USB-A, and will provide enough power to charge a laptop. Mobile phone manufacturers have agreed on the new standard, and new phones will start appearing with USB-C instead of USB-micro-B, probably starting with high-end smartphones late this year, and becoming standard by the end of next year.

If you're building a train that won't be in service until 2017, it would make a lot more sense to have USB-C ports (especially in first class where customers are likely to have newer and higher-end phones) from the start. They might be the wrong connector for some people for the first year or two, but better that than having an old connector for years until there's a refit.

(For those interested, the USB-A is the computer-end connection, the USB-B, or mini-B or micro-B is the one on the phone or tablet; full-size B ports are pretty much only used by printers)

You're making the same mistake I did - mixing up the physical and electrical standards. The USB Power Delivery ("PD") specification allows devices to request up to 100W (profile 5, 5A @ 20V) and is implemented on type A, B and now C connectors.
The main problem with Type A connectors is that they were designed for 1500 insertions (one per working day for 5+ years, fine for computer peripherals,) and the receptacle is prone to wear. Micro-B and C connections were designed for 10000 cycles, reflecting new uses, and the wearing parts are in the plug not the socket.
My guess - they will fit a cheap type-A profile 1 (10W, 2A @ 5V) socket converter now, as they are commonly available. When they all pack up in a couple of years, which they will, hopefully they will fit type-C or combination socket.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The new USB technologies coming on line aren't necessarily dependent upon one another. There's the USB-C connector, the USB 3.1 data transfer specification and the USB Power Delivery specification, plus various Alternate Mode uses. The Nokia N1 Android tablet uses a USB-C connector but it only runs at USB 2.0 speeds and power transfer capabilities while supporting none of the special new Alternate Modes. Various new computer motherboards announced recently are coming with USB 3.1 data speeds but using the traditional USB 3.0 connector. The new MacBook and Chromebook Pixel models use the USB-C connector with Power Delivery and Alternate Mode but at USB 3.0 (confusingly renamed USB 3.1 Gen 1) speeds.

To cut through the confusion, it would be entirely possible for the USB ports fitted to the trains to support Power Delivery even without the new connector. Charging a USB-C Power Delivery device like the new MacBook would just involve a USB-A to USB-C cable capable of Power Delivery. In future, when the ports need replaced as part of day-to-day maintenance (USB-A connectors are only designed for around 1500 insert-remove cycles, which could be reached in only a year or two of service) it would then just be a matter of replacing the inside of the unit with one which has USB-C connectors. Since they're smaller in every dimension than USB-A connectors, the ones used could just have enough plastic around them to fit snugly into the former USB-A sized hole in the plastic fascia.

 

[Emblematic]

Unfortunately I can see this causing confusion in future. Over the next couple of years, as people get replacement laptops, phones etc. they will all have the new universal type C connectors. The phone charger will still be electrically phone sized, probably profile 1, the laptop will require laptop voltages, profile 4 or 5, the laptop charger will be physically larger and likely get quite warm or even hot in use. Whilst everything can safely be plugged in, and the phone charged off any device, only the larger charger will do for the laptop. Size and heat limitations will likely prevent the higher profiles being provided from an outlet, unless a DC bus is installed.

 

[najaB]

Unfortunately I can see this causing confusion in future...

Which is why I expect to see BS1363 sockets for the foreseeable future, rather than USB which may or may not be compatible.

 

[Peter Sarf]

.....

I don't bother buying hot drinks on trains anymore unless gasping. The final straw was getting "tea" from the buffet on a FGW service only to find I'd been given a cup of warm water and a teabag, still unopened. Anyone who considers that acceptable should be subject to immediate deportation to somewhere with no appreciation of God's own Beverage, like France.

I can't be the only one - from the frequency of announcements advertising the availability of beers, lagers, ciders, wines and spirits on the 0742 there must be many others who know there's nothing else drinkable.

We don't bother with on board catering anymore. Many years ago we were at Manchester Piccadilly and we were hungry. We had about one hour to wait for our planned departure to Euston. Being tired we decided to skip the station food and get on an earlier train to Euston that showed it had a buffet on board according to the indicator on the concourse. We got on as the train was about to leave and as we left there was an announcement that the buffet would not be open. We were so annoyed that the concourse indicator led us to believe there would be an offerring only minutes before and we could have eaten on the station or chosen a later train.

Next time we were out and about we had some spare time at Crewe. I decided to go to the local petrol station. I bought a loaf of sliced bread, cheese singles and some sliced ham. Cost less than one sandwich and freshly made.

So I have not bought food/drink on a train since some time in the 1990s. I did get attached to the improved sandwiches then they threw my custom away !. Tell a lie we had some very cheap first class tickets on the ECML recently. Got a free snack plus drink !.

If someone is going to pay a premium for something then it follows it has to be reliable.

So the catering offering on an IEP is one thing that does not bother me really.

 

[jon0844]

A simple USB-A 5V 2/2.1A socket should suffice for a while. They're now on sale in many DIY stores on twin sockets, and Ikea now does extension leads with USB ports (indeed so do Belkin and others).

This will work for most people and if we've still got ordinary plug sockets for people needing more, that'll do too.

 

[Haydn1971]

Seeing as USB-C is more than capable of charging any average laptop and is compact enough to be of use on a phone/tablet/ultrabook with all the benefits of USB 3., I don't see why it won't usurp the -A type.

And I'd never heard of it until I looked it up today.... I don't doubt it will replace, but currently most devices use 3 pin or USB-A - I don't really see fitting them to 100 trains in one country having much influence on the likes of Samsung and Apple in the bundling of the "free" cable - which I'm guessing will cost more per unit when a standard USB-A type cable will do all they need it to do (for now)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which is why I expect to see BS1363 sockets for the foreseeable future, rather than USB which may or may not be compatible.

Indeed - it's just so much more universal....

...for UK based passengers

 

[jon0844]

Can a MacBook be charged at all with a lower power supply? I mean, my phone will take a 500mA 5V supply but it takes ages - but it DOES work.

The MacBook is not far off a pretty basic tablet with a fixed keyboard, so while it might support faster charging - like the Galaxy S6, Nexus 6 and other modern smartphones - I wonder if you could get by with a lesser supply, or if it simply won't work at all?

I'm sure this time next year, I'll be surrounded by devices with USB-C, but even I can't envisage it being used on a train or plane for a long time. Maybe once every laptop, smartphone, tablet (and not just from Apple) has it, we'll see it appearing on some airlines first - then gradually filtering down to trains, coaches, buses (not that I've yet been on a bus with power sockets, but I know they exist - Arriva has one in St Albans) and so on.

It shouldn't be a particularly hard thing to retrofit.

 

[Emblematic]

BS 1363 has been around, with only minor revisions, for well over 60 years. Longer than almost any train in service. USB has not been around 20 years yet, and less than 10 as a standardised power source, which is less than many train interiors, and now the sockets are obsolescent.
If they were prudent they would just leave USB out. If they want to be cool and trendy, they could fit wireless charging pads. However, these are so cheap now the deleted kitchen gadgets will cover the cost. Screwfix do 40 different models :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Macbook will almost certainly need a 20V capable supply.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Apple ship it with a 29W PSU, so that's 12V. It will work on any supply that provides 12V or more, but not off the 5V outlets most commonly found at the moment.

 

[jon0844]

There are still two competing standards for wireless charging I believe, so that might be a while off.

I've got four wireless charging pads at home, but am yet to see one out and about (they're in some Starbucks I believe but none I've been to).

USB as is will be fine.

 

[AM9]

There are still two competing standards for wireless charging I believe, so that might be a while off.

I've got four wireless charging pads at home, but am yet to see one out and about (they're in some Starbucks I believe but none I've been to).

USB as is will be fine.

For the longest journeys that the 800s will endure, circa 5 hours, those that expect their rail ticket to provide a moving office and have an absolute requirement* for use of a higher power device, will have to make their own arrangements, - either get one with sufficient internal battery life or carry a charger. For the 95% of other passengers of whom probably less than half can't manage to travel without using a tablet etc., a 2A USB-A port will suffice for at least 10 years. Also, most passengers won't be travelling from London to Inverness or Swansea.
Just because two mainlines in the UK are getting new trains, it doesn't mean that the whole country will arrive at the station with just a USB-C only cable set, as all the other trains, buses, coffee shops, taxis etc., won't have changed theirs, if indeed they have any provision of power at all.

* A genuine need as opposed to just a lifestyle wish.

 

[jon0844]

It's the sort of thing that I see going on airlines first, which are far more competitive - and, even then, quite likely first class and business class first. There, it could potentially steal a customer from another airline.

For a train, there's somewhat less competition in that regard.

Personally, I carry a 10000mAh power pack when on the go, and a 5 way USB charger for hotels etc. I also have a 14000mAh power pack that can charge my laptop.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I can imagine free wi-fi is more important than a power outlet. Then a three pin socket as until houses have something else (i.e. USB) the user of the equipment will have a mains adapter already. When I travel I will need my mains adapter at the other end of the journey so no hardship taking it with me. Reading the above I can see that USB might not be worth worrying about too much just yet.

OK for commuters who probably have another adapter at the other end of the journey a USB socket or two could make it easier to travel light.

 

[najaB]

OK for commuters who probably have another adapter at the other end of the journey a USB socket or two could make it easier to travel light.

That phrase intrigued me, so I weighed my phone's charger: 43g. Hardly a millstone around my neck!

 

[transmanche]

I can imagine free wi-fi is more important than a power outlet.

TBH I'm not bothered about wi-fi (free or otherwise) as I have unlimited 4G/3G data and generally I can get a much better (faster and more reliable) data connection via the mobile network than I can via train or bus on-board wi-fi.

Reading the above I can see that USB might not be worth worrying about too much just yet

I noticed that all the Arriva Sapphire buses around here have USB (as well as 3-pin plug) charging sockets.[/QUOTE]

That phrase intrigued me, so I weighed my phone's charger: 43g. Hardly a millstone around my neck!

I see your 43g and raise (drop?) you to 33g! (Well, according to the manufacturer.)

I have one of the Nokia Universal USB chargers, which I can highly recommend to anyone. As well as being super light, the 'earth pin' pops up and down, so it's flush with the charger when nt in use. And I can use it to charge my phone, camera, headphones etc when away from home. The 'wire' is just any USB cable you like!

 

[asylumxl]

I thought this was a thread about the Class 800/801. I appear to have stumbled on a debate about the pros and cons of the various power standards.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I thought this was a thread about the Class 800/801. I appear to have stumbled on a debate about the pros and cons of the various power standards.

Well it would not be a thread about IEP without some debate about the power - thinking of those pesky engines under the floor .

 

[jon0844]

I can imagine free wi-fi is more important than a power outlet. Then a three pin socket as until houses have something else (i.e. USB) the user of the equipment will have a mains adapter already. When I travel I will need my mains adapter at the other end of the journey so no hardship taking it with me. Reading the above I can see that USB might not be worth worrying about too much just yet.

OK for commuters who probably have another adapter at the other end of the journey a USB socket or two could make it easier to travel light.

Actually, unless I'm taking my laptop then everything I have (smartphone, MiFi, tablet, smartwatch, DSLR) all charges via a micro-USB port, thus I need one single USB lead and no adapter at all. Packing a 3 pin transformer seems unnecessary at all if it's integrated within the socket, regardless of size/weight.

I'd have thought a great deal of people these days are making do with a smartphone and tablet, and may not even have a laptop. So, only those that do will really need the old-school plugs, which obviously aren't going anywhere.

Well it would not be a thread about IEP without some debate about the power - thinking of those pesky engines under the floor .

Well indeed. Now we have the debate on diesel vs electric and 3 pin plugs vs USB. Who knew these trains would be so controversial!

 

[CardiffKid]

Does anyone know when the first 800s will enter service on the GWML?

Will it be when the 801s are introduced following electrification or will some 800s be introduced to run on diesel before electrification is compete?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does anyone know when the first 800s will enter service on the GWML?
Will it be when the 801s are introduced following electrification or will some 800s be introduced to run on diesel before electrification is compete?

Nominally during 2017, with electric working to Bristol (both routes) and Oxford (the Newbury route staying HST at that stage).
But the route upgrade programme is in trouble and nobody is yet saying what electric routes will actually be available when 800/801s arrive.
There's speculation that efforts will be concentrated on getting London-Swindon operational first.
Will be confirmed "during the summer" after various reviews.
That assumes 800/801 will be ready on time.
Then there's the issue of EMUs on commuter routes.
That needs Oxford and Newbury to be ready, the opposite of the IEP priority.

 

[RobShipway]

I presume that the class 360's are moving on at some point, so you are going to need class 387/1's for the services to Hayes and on to Heathrow to replace those and I also suspect that come this time next year you will have up to Reading if not Swindon electrified.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I believe there are either 387's or a mix with 365's doing Padd to Hayes runs to assist with driver training.

I'd imagine the same will happen with the 800/801's. This being a preview service from Ladd to Swindon to assist with training. My guess is that they will take the slot of some of the Ladd to Cheltenham services? Would make sense to me. Easier to fit in.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I wonder which is more important. A suburban DMU cascade or an HST cascade ?.

 

[RobShipway]

I wonder which is more important. A suburban DMU cascade or an HST cascade ?.

For those in Scotland, probably the HST cascade, for those in the West Country the DMU cascade is more important.

 

[ert47]

I presume that the class 360's are moving on at some point, so you are going to need class 387/1's for the services to Hayes and on to Heathrow to replace those and I also suspect that come this time next year you will have up to Reading if not Swindon electrified.

I'd have thought that the 360s would be replaced (or displaced) by Crossrail 345s

 

[450 spotter]

I'd have thought that the 360s would be replaced (or displaced) by Crossrail 345s

I heard that they may go to Greater Anglia.

 

[Stats]

Does anyone know when the first 800s will enter service on the GWML?

Will it be when the 801s are introduced following electrification or will some 800s be introduced to run on diesel before electrification is compete?

The bi-modes will be delivered first. According to the published train availability agreements the first 2 bi-modes should be available in June 2017, with the maximum number of available units increasing by 2 every fortnight. The first 2 electric units are scheduled to be available from the 1 March 2018.

 

[Emblematic]

For those in Scotland, probably the HST cascade, for those in the West Country the DMU cascade is more important.

In the short term that's true, although the Scotrail HSTs in turn are part of a larger DMU cascade. Looking out to 2019, the problem is DMU capacity, getting everything PRM-TSI compliant and allowing some of the Pacers to retire. High-speed diesel will be in surplus, expect some of the HSTs to be retired as they won't all be needed. So on that basis, priority to DMU.