GWR Class 230 Information, Movements & Discussion.

[MotCO]

The Waterloo &City Line also does this at Bank, and I believe the Bakerloo at Elephant. Known as "stepping back".
This allows the train to set off back the way it came whilst the driver who brought it in is still battling against the throng heading - in the opposite direction - for the exit from the platform.

I assume that the St Ives and the Waterloo and City trains keep their drivers on board at each end, whereas the drivers on the Bakerloo example 'step' back' by alighting the train and driving the next train out of the station on the next trip, so they are slightly different.

 

[Dstock7080]

I assume that the St Ives and the Waterloo and City trains keep their drivers on board at each end, whereas the drivers on the Bakerloo example 'step' back' by alighting the train and driving the next train out of the station on the next trip, so they are slightly different.

Waterloo & City drivers step-back one train at Bank in peak-hours only, whereas at Waterloo sidings they step-back all day but varies between one and two trains depending upon time of day.

 

[hwl]

Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick but I thought the whole point of the fast charging scheme was that it could recharge the batteries in the time it takes to turn round the train.

Most of the charging is done over night, the charging during turnarounds is tiny top ups that cumulative mean the train can stay in service till the end of the day and the big over night charge.

 

[Invincible]

Most of the charging is done over night, the charging during turnarounds is tiny top ups that cumulative mean the train can stay in service till the end of the day and the big over night charge.

As I understand it there is a battery bank on the platform, that is constantly being tickle charged. This enables fast charge of the onboard train batteries when in the platform. There is also a bit of charging during the train braking.
Hopefully Woods can confirm the charging operation at Ealing?

 

[hwl]

As I understand it there is a battery bank on the platform, that is constantly being tickle charged. This enables fast charge of the onboard train batteries when in the platform. There is also a bit of charging during the train braking.

Correct but you are missing the elephant in the room - Most of the onboard battery charging (in terms of total charge used during the day) is done slowly over night to reduce battery damage and maximise battery life with short fast limited top ups at turnarounds during the day (this effectively reduces the battery size needed by 35-40%). The PR has very selectably focused on the fast charging element only.

Hopefully Woods can confirm the charging operation at Ealing?

Who is Woods?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Who is Woods

A forum member. He has posted on this thread.

 

[SynthD]

Correct but you are missing the elephant in the room - Most of the onboard battery charging (in terms of total charge used during the day) is done slowly over night to reduce battery damage and maximise battery life with short fast limited top ups at turnarounds during the day (this effectively reduces the battery size needed by 35-40%). The PR has very selectably focused on the fast charging element only.

Was that the safe prediction made before the trial, or the results of the trial?

 

[Invincible]

Correct but you are missing the elephant in the room - Most of the onboard battery charging (in terms of total charge used during the day) is done slowly over night to reduce battery damage and maximise battery life with short fast limited top ups at turnarounds during the day (this effectively reduces the battery size needed by 35-40%). The PR has very selectably focused on the fast charging element only.

From the GWR report seems a bit of both, so at the end of day the batteries are nearly full and don't need charging overnight?

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/about-gwr/what-you-can-expect/sustainability/GWR-fast-charge-whitepaper-010725.pdf

Motorists with electric cars charge them slowly overnight from domestic supplies at home. Or they can use fast-chargers in places like service stations or supermarkets. GWR used the same principles with its testbed train in West London. For test purposes, the train’s battery rafts were charged slowly overnight in a depot and then with every visit to West Ealing station during the day. From a test perspective, it made sense to start a day with full charge and the fast-charge bursts during the day were essential to test the system. Running a fast-charge battery train in normal service would adopt a different regime. Trains don’t return to depots every night but when they do it makes sense to trickle charge their batteries, just as diesel trains receive fuel in depots. But unlike diesel trains, fast-charge battery trains can be charged as they run, either from overhead wires or fast-chargers in stations. GWR’s test-bed only runs five miles between fast charges because that’s the distance from West Ealing to Greenford and back. In other tests, it has run over 80 miles on a single charge. Modelling suggests it has the potential for much more. Clearly, replacing this sort of power draw takes longer than the 3-4 minutes tested at West Ealing and might typically take just over 15 minutes in a single charge. For the test bed, this fast-charge comes from a set of rails laid in West Ealing station, with one set charging each of the two battery cars of our threecar testbed. Each set is connected to a large battery sitting in a container by the side of the line. Charge reaches these large batteries from conventional electricity network supplies in exactly the same way it reaches homes, shops and offices. The train then takes short bursts via those rails to keep itself topped up. This ability to top up its batteries from lineside supplies gives GWR’s testbed train unlimited range. And, as part of the trial, GWR developed simulation software that can predict power consumption and allows it to suggest where to place lineside fast-chargers along particular routes.

 

[tfw756rider]

As I understand it there is a battery bank on the platform, that is constantly being tickle charged. This enables fast charge of the onboard train batteries when in the platform. There is also a bit of charging during the train braking.
Hopefully Woods can confirm the charging operation at Ealing?

Correct but you are missing the elephant in the room - Most of the onboard battery charging (in terms of total charge used during the day) is done slowly over night to reduce battery damage and maximise battery life with short fast limited top ups at turnarounds during the day (this effectively reduces the battery size needed by 35-40%). The PR has very selectably focused on the fast charging element only.

Who is Woods?

A forum member. He has posted on this thread.

@Woods

 

[Dstock7080]

New video from Geoff Marshall, making suggestion again about entry into service - “soon”.

 

[frankmoh]

Will there be a Class 165 on the line tomorrow? I've just realised that it's the easiest way to go on a Networker Turbo in London and I've not been on one yet. If not, does anyone know some later days when they aren't testing the Class 230?

 

[Invincible]

New video from Geoff Marshall, making suggestion again about entry into service - “soon”.

In the video, about 2 mins in) the GWR engineer Julian Fletcher says the train starts with about 75% charge (so no overnight charge?), raised to about 85% with a fast charge, then stays about 80-85% during the day (with short fast charges).

 

[frankmoh]

In the video, about 2 mins in) the GWR engineer Julian Fletcher says the train starts with about 75% charge (so no overnight charge?), raised to about 85% with a fast charge, then stays about 80-85% during the day (with short fast charges).

The app on Marshall's phone says that the 230 arrives into Greenford at 71%, I can assume it then gets charged to 80% or above.

 

[Benjwri]

Will there be a Class 165 on the line tomorrow? I've just realised that it's the easiest way to go on a Networker Turbo in London and I've not been on one yet. If not, does anyone know some later days when they aren't testing the Class 230?

The 230 is not in service. It might be around, but if there's services running they will be on a 165 at the moment.

 

[frankmoh]

The 230 is not in service. It might be around, but if there's services running they will be on a 165 at the moment.

Good for me then.

 

[Invincible]

View attachment 183510
The app on Marshall's phone says that the 230 arrives into Greenford at 71%, I can assume it then gets charged to 80% or above.

Although in the video Julian Fletcher says the charge could go down to 15%
I presume when it goes into service drivers will have access to the data to confirm batteries are charging and they won't fully discharge and keep a certain amount of charge.

 

[Trainbike46]

In the video, about 2 mins in) the GWR engineer Julian Fletcher says the train starts with about 75% charge (so no overnight charge?), raised to about 85% with a fast charge, then stays about 80-85% during the day (with short fast charges).

Based on how I understood it, it arrives at West Ealing with 75% charge if coming from the depot (in Reading) - so presumably it started with a full or almost full battery, and used that 25% on the run from Reading to West Ealing.

Although in the video Julian Fletcher says the charge could go down to 15%
I presume when it goes into service drivers will have access to the data to confirm batteries are charging and they won't fully discharge and keep a certain amount of charge.

That's presumably a test of how low you can go, not what would happen in normal service, though

 

[Kite159]

Will there be a Class 165 on the line tomorrow? I've just realised that it's the easiest way to go on a Networker Turbo in London and I've not been on one yet. If not, does anyone know some later days when they aren't testing the Class 230?

Surely the easiest way is to visit Marylebone and take a 165 towards Harrow on the Hill or the hourly stopper towards High Wycombe to either Ruislip stations. At least those get up to speed.

 

[JN114]

I presume when it goes into service drivers will have access to the data to confirm batteries are charging and they won't fully discharge and keep a certain amount of charge.

Similarly to fuel on diesel trains, there isn’t any kind of level of detail shown to the driver about state of charge.

From memory (I had my familiarisation day back in Feb ‘24); there’s just two indicators in the driving cab

One that “proves” the train is accepting power in fast charge mode; and one that tells the driver they are in low battery.

Not in any way to denigrate drivers; but there really isn’t much benefit in telling them any more than that in its current application.

 

[frankmoh]

Surely the easiest way is to visit Marylebone and take a 165 towards Harrow on the Hill or the hourly stopper towards High Wycombe to either Ruislip stations. At least those get up to speed.

Well I'm choosing the Greenford Branch as I can get a District Line train (reversing at Earl's Court) without going into Zone 1. A of lot extra work to save £1 or whatever but yk.

 

[Invincible]

Based on how I understood it, it arrives at West Ealing with 75% charge if coming from the depot (in Reading) - so presumably it started with a full or almost full battery, and used that 25% on the run from Reading to West Ealing.

Is the 230 to be kept at Ealing overnight and just go to the Reading depot for maintenance?

 

[REVUpminster]

My mobile phone charges to 85% to give the batteries a longer useful life. Maybe that yardstick is used for the train batteries and all other batteries maybe?

 

[Invincible]

Similarly to fuel on diesel trains, there isn’t any kind of level of detail shown to the driver about state of charge.

From memory (I had my familiarisation day back in Feb ‘24); there’s just two indicators in the driving cab

One that “proves” the train is accepting power in fast charge mode; and one that tells the driver they are in low battery.

Not in any way to denigrate drivers; but there really isn’t much benefit in telling them any more than that in its current application.

I can see the need for drivers to keep eyes on tracks rather than what could be a computer screen with lots of info.
But just one indication of low battery is perhaps too late!
Now that data to and from trains is easier with WiFi data feeds and improved telemetry, ideally the screens that are in the test runs could be in the depot so engineers can occasionally check the charging, batteries, regenerative braking charging, etc is working well, and any problems noticed and remotely diagnosed before the driver gets an indication of low battery! Perhaps giving good warning so a diesel train can take over if a component needs attention? However drivers may be aware something is not right and could ask for a remote diagnostic check, this is now becoming common on several new road vehicles.
The phone app is cleaver, but doubt if it will be rolled out to passengers so they get more data than the driver?

 

[DavidGrain]

A point I picked up from Geoff Marshall's video is that 230001 will be a one off to test the technology for use in orders for future new trains. There did not seem to be any future use for either the 3 ex Marston Vale trains or for the stock of ex D Stock trains which will presumable all now go for scrap.

 

[JN114]

A point I picked up from Geoff Marshall's video is that 230001 will be a one off to test the technology for use in orders for future new trains. There did not seem to be any future use for either the 3 ex Marston Vale trains or for the stock of ex D Stock trains which will presumable all now go for scrap.

The informed contributors in this thread have been repeatedly at great pains to highlight that this is a one-off test bed; and that there was no plans committed to roll the technology out beyond trialling it on 230001.

The train is not what is on trial; the fast charging battery technology is.

 

[800301]

I can see the need for drivers to keep eyes on tracks rather than what could be a computer screen with lots of info.
But just one indication of low battery is perhaps too late!
Now that data to and from trains is easier with WiFi data feeds and improved telemetry, ideally the screens that are in the test runs could be in the depot so engineers can occasionally check the charging, batteries, regenerative braking charging, etc is working well, and any problems noticed and remotely diagnosed before the driver gets an indication of low battery! Perhaps giving good warning so a diesel train can take over if a component needs attention? However drivers may be aware something is not right and could ask for a remote diagnostic check, this is now becoming common on several new road vehicles.
The phone app is cleaver, but doubt if it will be rolled out to passengers so they get more data than the driver?

The train is monitored heavily by quite a few people, the driver doesn’t need to know how much battery the unit has, that’s controls/fleet plannings problem, just like 80x are when they come off diagram or end up running in diesel for longer than they should.

 

[JN114]

I understand the intention was to instruct drivers to contact control/maintenance when they got a low charge indication.

Control/Maintenance then have a tool in the software seen in some of the photos earlier in the thread that gives a “where it’s safe to go” indication. I believe the unit can still safely undertake several round trips in low charge; of course only one will need to be completed to get to the fast charge pad at West Ealing station

 

[FGW_DID]

Is the 230 to be kept at Ealing overnight and just go to the Reading depot for maintenance?

Yes, as happens now. Routinely stabled at West Ealing LMD and returning to Reading TCD for heavier maintenance / exams etc.

LMD: Light Maintenance Depot.
TCD: Train Care Depot.

 

[THC]

A point I picked up from Geoff Marshall's video is that 230001 will be a one off to test the technology for use in orders for future new trains. There did not seem to be any future use for either the 3 ex Marston Vale trains or for the stock of ex D Stock trains which will presumable all now go for scrap.

I harboured a hope that GWR would convert enough ex-D Stock on the basis of a successful trial to run the Thames Valley and Cornish branches but that's just the railway romantic in me speaking, not the economist. The dream is over

I wonder will there be any preservation interest in the ex-Marston Vale units let alone if such an idea is practical. The Epping Ongar Railway would seem a natural home, but I'm in speculation territory now so will leave it there.

THC

 

[billio]

Surely a decision as to what should happen next would be for GBR. They should coordinate experiences gained by the three current operators and decide the way forward.
The head of GWR, will admitting the unit met all requirements, indicated there were other factors to be considered, one being using a unified fleet of new trains.