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GWR Class 230 Information, Movements & Discussion.

DelW

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The newly created £5bn gov black hole will have to be filled from somewhere, and politically far more likely taken from transport projects than say NHS / Defence / Education / Social Security etc. I can't see any new Transport projects getting authorised for a while, much easier to kick the can down the road a bit longer, like the SE train replacement project.
That's one benefit of keeping ROSCOs, the capital cost of new trains doesn't go straight onto the government's books. If the ROSCO can offer cheaper leasing rates for new trains (e.g. because of lower maintenance or financing costs), then they may get the go-ahead even when spending is constrained.
 
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Pete_uk

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For the small branches down in the south West, I would look at rebuilt 4 car battery 150s. But that's sliding off topic
 

reddragon

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230003/4/5 are diesel operated and for them to be brought back into service would probably require them to be upgraded to the same standard that TfW now have their units or converted to battery making use of all the work that GWR have done to date.
They have a simple raft system, so an easy task
 

FenMan

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But longer term they are looking at a single, homogeneous, fleet of new trains, to replace all their regional DMUs (150, 158, 165, 166). And these would be battery bi-modes capable of being powered by OHLE (where available) and batteries (where OHLE not available), serving secondary routes / branch lines over the full 'patch' right from the Thames Valley down to Cornwall.

I'd like to think a fleet of new trains would also be 3rd rail capable, otherwise the North Downs will have a problem.
 

Taunton

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GWR are now the proud owner of 67 of these cars, some of which I hope will see new life as Fast Charge-equipped battery trains on branch lines in the future. Meanwhile initial testing of our class leader battery train 230001 and its accompanying Fast Charge system is now wrapping up

This is Post 9 right at the start of this thread, May 2023, well over two years ago. Seems virtually no progress has been made beyond that. Comments above about drivers still not trained in any number (more than one needed?).

It's no wonder that DfT get hacked off with the conduct of projects on the railway nowadays, which seem to proceed at the speed of coastal erosion, and feel they are just throwing good money after bad in continuing. I'd say the same. It is of course currently the same with multiple other "new train" situations elsewhere.

For contrast, I recall long ago hearing of the arrival of the first GWR diesel railcar at Taunton, which was used on the branch to Yeovil. It was before my time. Nobody at Taunton had ever seen a diesel before, it was the first one, and most of the drivers there at the time had never even handled a road vehicle, which the AEC power train was based on. Nevertheless it turned up one day, along with an inspector from Swindon, who the very next day conducted a driver on the first run, in public service, showing how to operate it, and in the next few days showed the others, the fitters, and such like. Left them all to it after a short while, with no ill-effects at all. The contrast with the saga above, that maybe by the end of 2025 the 230 will operate two days a week, then maybe another day, and so on, is extraordinary.
 

DavidGrain

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230001 did a couple of trips to Park Royal yesterday. Surprise for anyone on the platform at Perivale and Hanger Lane.
This photo by Keith Ward on the Chiltern Line Appreciation Society Facebook Page.
516204036_10233686909301908_474859194720189102_n.jpg
 

BerkshireRails

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TfW!
Think the "Green Railways for growth" project team at DfT/ GBR will be looking at the costs with manufacturers and leasing companies about the total cost over several years. It may work out cheaper long term to build purpose built new trains, rather than rebuild 230s
One saving will come from the units being owned by the railway rather than leased from a ROSCO. Another saving will come from the fact that it is an existing fleet you're expanding, so you don't have as much training to do.
230002 and 011 are in America and surely not worth the expense of purchasing them from whoever now owns them and repatriating them.
230003/4/5 are diesel operated and for them to be brought back into service would probably require them to be upgraded to the same standard that TfW now have their units or converted to battery making use of all the work that GWR have done to date.

Remember that that all decisions are now being made by civil servants because GWR know that their contract will not be renewed so they are not going to incur capital expenditure without DfT funding.
230002 and 230011 have very little use in America due to their light weight, so the best thing would be to bring them back to the UK after buying them from Pop Up Metro and make them both three-car cars rather than a 2- and 3-car unit.
230003-230005 would be converted to Battery Electric and gain a third car.
230012-230017/230019 would be new build three-car Battery Electric units.
GWR would have 230001-230005 and 230011-230017/230019, and Transport for Wales Rail would have 230006-230010, unless they would prefer to give them to GWR and get five extra 197s at least.
 

390112A

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One saving will come from the units being owned by the railway rather than leased from a ROSCO. Another saving will come from the fact that it is an existing fleet you're expanding, so you don't have as much training to do.

230002 and 230011 have very little use in America due to their light weight, so the best thing would be to bring them back to the UK after buying them from Pop Up Metro and make them both three-car cars rather than a 2- and 3-car unit.
230003-230005 would be converted to Battery Electric and gain a third car.
230012-230017/230019 would be new build three-car Battery Electric units.
GWR would have 230001-230005 and 230011-230017/230019, and Transport for Wales Rail would have 230006-230010, unless they would prefer to give them to GWR and get five extra 197s at least.

I am unsure as to their fate but I believe it was mentioned up thread that TFW and SWR also bought 6DMs 3 Trailers and 4 DMs respectively. Could GWR buy any of these to source for an even larger fleet?
 

norbitonflyer

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Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick but I thought the whole point of the fast charging scheme was that it could recharge the batteries in the time it takes to turn round the train.
That does depend on how fast the turnround is.

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When did Transport for London get 230006-230010?
TfW I meant, of course!
 

Invincible

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One saving will come from the units being owned by the railway rather than leased from a ROSCO.
Of course buying outright is cheaper long term than leasing. The original plan of Vivarail was that the cost of refurbished lightweight aluminium tube trains will be low, and initially suited the Island line which had a tradition of buying older tube trains.

But Vivarail started when cash was more easy to get. Now Government and company spending is restrained, leasing new build trains is a more viable option, even if long term works out more expensive.
 

Bessie

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Will there be just the one unit 001 coming into revenue service this summer? How many train crews are getting trained to work on this?
 

AdamWW

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That does depend on how fast the turnround is.

Well that's true.

Maybe if the driver leaps out of the cab and sprints down the train to the other end he can get it ready to go the other way before it's charged?
 

317 forever

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It may be a coincidence, but it seems a waste not to use the GWR 230s after the GWR 769s were not used either
 

DelW

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Will there be just the one unit 001 coming into revenue service this summer? How many train crews are getting trained to work on this?
There's only one battery-electric fast-charge unit in existence. The others are all diesel-electric units (230s) or pure electric (484s).

But that frees up:
Castles (for scrap)
80x (for Mainline IC duties ?)
158s
whatever is currently running Okehampton and Barnstaple

So would still enable longer units for the St Erth - St Ives shuttle
Off topic, but just to mention that Castles aren't necessarily going for scrap, it's been reported elsewhere that another operator (WestCoast IIRC) has been buying off-lease ones.
 
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Presumably if/when the class 230 takes over the Greenford branch for a days service it won’t be forming 2P07 03:54 Reading to Paddington. Which is currently how the Turbo for the branch gets from Reading TCD.
 

BayPaul

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Well that's true.

Maybe if the driver leaps out of the cab and sprints down the train to the other end he can get it ready to go the other way before it's charged?
On the St Ives branch there are two drivers, one at each end of the train, as there isn't enough time to change ends.
 

D365

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Well that's true.

Maybe if the driver leaps out of the cab and sprints down the train to the other end he can get it ready to go the other way before it's charged?
Given that the driver will be informed if their unit is fast charging, they won’t need to be in a rush to change ends. A minimum duration to get a reasonable ’top-up’ will be four minutes.
 

SynthD

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What will be the fate of the 230 now it's known it won't enter passenger service ?

Departmentmental battery charger tester for future battery projects?
Depending on how similar and late the final train is, the 230 could be useful for testing new installations of the charging equipment. It may be useful for training staff, as this project shows there is something (that running about time) about batteries the drivers need to know.
Presumably if/when the class 230 takes over the Greenford branch for a days service it won’t be forming 2P07 03:54 Reading to Paddington. Which is currently how the Turbo for the branch gets from Reading TCD.
Last year, or even before that, there was talk of it staying some nights at West Ealing sidings, which would be made capable of daily work like emptying toilet tanks. As they're going into this level of testing, does it include using the sidings as intended?
 

AdamWW

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Given that the driver will be informed if their unit is fast charging, they won’t need to be in a rush to change ends. A minimum duration to get a reasonable ’top-up’ will be four minutes.

On the St Ives branch there are two drivers, one at each end of the train, as there isn't enough time to change ends.

If the turnarounds are so tight that there isn't even time for a driver to change ends, then maybe even with fast charging this isn't the appropriate route.
 

BerkshireRails

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Don't think anyone has posted a link to the GWR fast charging report. GWR Fast Charging Report Here is some Summary Quotes from the Report
If you take one fact away from this report, it’s this: Fast-charge battery trains work.

The shoes and rails allow the lineside batteries to rapidly charge the train batteries in a matter of minutes, allowing the train to continue its journey, carrying passengers to their destinations.

For the trial, the fast-charge team took batteries housed in small shipping containers – normally used as emergency power sources in hospitals – and installed them by the side of the line at West Ealing.

On the tracks alongside, GWR installed two sets of charging rails. Installation was quick, simple and with easy access, requiring no special tools and permission from only a small number of stakeholders.

In addition, the technology is completely safe. Unlike other types of electrification on the railway, the fast-charge system does not require the rails to be live all the time: They only go live during charging, when they are covered by the train.

These tools give GWR confidence that fast-charge battery trains could help deliver services across branch lines in the Thames Valley and in Devon and Cornwall, including the long line from Exeter to Barnstaple. Crucially, the results from GWR could be applied to other, similar routes across Britain.

The idea of using batteries is not new. Back in the 1950s, British Railways tried something similar in Scotland. More recently, Network Rail conducted a battery trial in 2014. What’s changed since then (and certainly since the 1950s) is the technology behind the batteries themselves. This drive has come from rail’s great rival, road transport, which can now provide electric cars driven by batteries from almost every car showroom.

Running a fast-charge battery train in normal service would adopt a different regime. Trains don’t return to depots every night but when they do it makes sense to trickle charge their batteries, just as diesel trains receive fuel in depots. But unlike diesel trains, fast-charge battery trains can be charged as they run, either from overhead wires or fast-chargers in stations.

GWR’s test-bed only runs five miles between fast charges because that’s the distance from West Ealing to Greenford and back. In other tests, it has run over 80 miles on a single charge. Modelling suggests it has the potential for much more. Clearly, replacing this sort of power draw takes longer than the 3-4 minutes tested at West Ealing and might typically take just over 15 minutes in a single charge.

“GWR has always been at the forefront of innovation, since its inception nearly 200 years ago through to today with this cutting-edge trial. I’m now eager to see how it takes this project forward to address the challenge of renewing its regional fleet, so the railway can continue to serve customers not just of today but for generations to come, and make a significant contribution to reducing harmful CO2 emissions.” Lord Faulkner of Worcester, Chair of the GWR Advisory Board

The testbed itself is a former London Underground train that was converted especially for this fastcharge project. Although it can and has carried people, it’s not our intention at GWR to use it in regular service in the long-term

Our air-monitoring equipment reveals much lower pollution on days when no diesel trains run, particularly for Nitrogen Dioxide (NO2), which gives us confidence that fast-charge battery trains help to cut local air pollution. They’re quieter too, peaking at around 63dB compared with a diesel train’s 93dB.
 
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FGW_DID

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230001 is now on its way back to Reading TCD until at least the 19th July for various maintenance tasks.
 

Woods

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This is Post 9 right at the start of this thread, May 2023, well over two years ago. Seems virtually no progress has been made beyond that. Comments above about drivers still not trained in any number (more than one needed?).

It's no wonder that DfT get hacked off with the conduct of projects on the railway nowadays, which seem to proceed at the speed of coastal erosion, and feel they are just throwing good money after bad in continuing. I'd say the same. It is of course currently the same with multiple other "new train" situations elsewhere.

For contrast, I recall long ago hearing of the arrival of the first GWR diesel railcar at Taunton, which was used on the branch to Yeovil. It was before my time. Nobody at Taunton had ever seen a diesel before, it was the first one, and most of the drivers there at the time had never even handled a road vehicle, which the AEC power train was based on. Nevertheless it turned up one day, along with an inspector from Swindon, who the very next day conducted a driver on the first run, in public service, showing how to operate it, and in the next few days showed the others, the fitters, and such like. Left them all to it after a short while, with no ill-effects at all. The contrast with the saga above, that maybe by the end of 2025 the 230 will operate two days a week, then maybe another day, and so on, is extraordinary.
Unfortunately you have no idea of the hoops that we have to jump through these days to get anything 'new' introduced on the railway. I'm not saying that your general point is invalid, but the world is a very different place in 2025 to what it was when those GWR diesel railcars were introduced in the 1930s. Having said that, for a completely unique train with a completely new charging technology and a team of less than a dozen people working on it, maybe 2.5 years (early 2023 to summer 2025) isn't too bad compared to the time it has taken for an enormous global train manufacturer (Alstom) and an enormous train operator (SWR) with thousands of employees between them, to get some 'normal' third rail units into service (701s) - they are 6 years late and still not all introduced yet! See also Class 810, oh and just about every other new train fleet of the last decade. But enough of the Whatabouttery....


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That does depend on how fast the turnround is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


TfW I meant, of course!
The main point of the charging system is its ability to replenish the energy used on the previous round trip, in a normal turnaround time (typically 3 to 4 minutes). It does this automatically, with only a simple indication in the cab that it's either charging or not.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Depending on how similar and late the final train is, the 230 could be useful for testing new installations of the charging equipment. It may be useful for training staff, as this project shows there is something (that running about time) about batteries the drivers need to know.

Last year, or even before that, there was talk of it staying some nights at West Ealing sidings, which would be made capable of daily work like emptying toilet tanks. As they're going into this level of testing, does it include using the sidings as intended?
230001 has been stabled overnight, most of the time at West Ealing EMU sidings for the best part of the last 18 months, except when it's been at Reading depot.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Will there be just the one unit 001 coming into revenue service this summer? How many train crews are getting trained to work on this?
Yes, just one unit (230001) coming into revenue-earning service this summer. I don't know exactly how many crews are getting trained to work it, but it's basically all the drivers based at Paddington(?) who currently operate the Thames Valley stoppers and branch line services.
 
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800301

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Will there be just the one unit 001 coming into revenue service this summer? How many train crews are getting trained to work on this?

It’s around about 50 drivers including DI’s and Lead drivers, obviously you can managers and various other GWR people that sign it for various reasons, and I would say a good majority have been trained
 

yorkie

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Just a gentle reminder, this thread is to discuss GWR Class 230 Information, Movements & Discussion.
 

meld3

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It’s around about 50 drivers including DI’s and Lead drivers, obviously you can managers and various other GWR people that sign it for various reasons, and I would say a good majority have been trained
50 drivers for 1 train sounds like total overkill, that's about 1 driving shift every 5 weeks if shared out equally.
 

Tw99

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50 drivers for 1 train sounds like total overkill, that's about 1 driving shift every 5 weeks if shared out equally.
Presumably the Greenford service is bundled with a load of other stuff, and there are existing agreements about how it's all bundled and how many drivers you need for the whole lot.
 

Roylang

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50 drivers for 1 train sounds like total overkill, that's about 1 driving shift every 5 weeks if shared out equally.

Not sure how you get to 5 weeks. There must be a minimum of three shifts a day, six days a week. Assuming drivers are not rostered for consecutive days, you need 18 drivers a week minimum, 50 would therefore be 2 1/2 weeks.
 

JN114

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Greenford branch uses 9 drivers each weekday due to limits on numbers of trips they can do in a shift.

Given some of those 50 mentioned previously are instructors, leading drivers, managers and so forth; Most “actual” drivers will do a couple of stints on Greenfords each week.
 

norbitonflyer

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50 drivers for 1 train sounds like total overkill, that's about 1 driving shift every 5 weeks if shared out equally.
No driver does the shuttle for an entire shift.

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On the St Ives branch there are two drivers, one at each end of the train, as there isn't enough time to change ends.
The Waterloo &City Line also does this at Bank, and I believe the Bakerloo at Elephant. Known as "stepping back".
This allows the train to set off back the way it came whilst the driver who brought it in is still battling against the throng heading - in the opposite direction - for the exit from the platform.
 
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