GWR battery train procurement suggestions & predictions

[zwk500]

Does the platform length third rail need to be compatible with the regular third rail on LU or the SE rail network? If not, they could choose underside contact for safety.

Not necessarily, but given it only needs to be a short length that will always be covered by the train it's probably easier to use top-contact that is only switched on when covered.

 

[edwin_m]

So you have your train at St Ives, & you're going to leave it overnight to charge. Therefore time, & who does the plugging/unplugging isn't an issue.

You fit either;
OLE (needs all the usual physical equipment, & has an exposed high voltage wire, & someone has to raise the pantograph)
3rd rail (you could control it so it's only live whilst charging, but you've still got an exposed contact, & someone has to lower the collector)
charging cable (can be locked to the socket on the train, so no exposed contacts, & also includes a communications protocol, so that battery state & 'smart' charging* can be managed)


*smart charging means that the battery state is assessed, & then the correct amount of power is supplied to charge the batteries in the most efficient & least damaging way.
You don't just dump power into a battery until it's full, doing so shortens it's life.


Those methods of getting electricity into trains is for running live systems, battery charging is different.

I can't see any problem with setting up a secure near-field radio link to carry the communications between the train and the charging system and support smart charging via short sections of third rail or indeed OLE. Smart charging on the move could be a bit more complicated, but that's not what we're considering here.

Not necessarily, but given it only needs to be a short length that will always be covered by the train it's probably easier to use top-contact that is only switched on when covered.

With a third rail system the rail on the outside is live, and could be seen as a convenient step if someone was climbing up to the train. A LU-style fourth rail was mentioned upthread, and the obvious thing to do would be to have the outside rail at near earth potential and the full 750V (or whatever voltage is chosen) on the centre one. That could be shorter than a bogie length, so not reachable even by crawling under the train. This is unlike LUL where the voltage between the outer rail and the running rails is still enough to be harmful. A centre third rail could also be used on its own, but this would put the return current in the running rails, which wouldn't be a problem at St Ives but would create safety case issues anywhere with track circuits.

 

[zwk500]

With a third rail system the rail on the outside is live, and could be seen as a convenient step if someone was climbing up to the train. A LU-style fourth rail was mentioned upthread, and the obvious thing to do would be to have the outside rail at near earth potential and the full 750V (or whatever voltage is chosen) on the centre one. That could be shorter than a bogie length, so not reachable even by crawling under the train. This is unlike LUL where the voltage between the outer rail and the running rails is still enough to be harmful. A centre third rail could also be used on its own, but this would put the return current in the running rails, which wouldn't be a problem at St Ives but would create safety case issues anywhere with track circuits.

All good points, but specifically on your last point as these charging stations are likely to be mostly in terminal bays used by 1 type of train, either put an Insulated Joint in to eliminate the issues with track circuits or swap TCs for Axle Counters, as is the general trend anyway nowadays.

 

[edwin_m]

All good points, but specifically on your last point as these charging stations are likely to be mostly in terminal bays used by 1 type of train, either put an Insulated Joint in to eliminate the issues with track circuits or swap TCs for Axle Counters, as is the general trend anyway nowadays.

That's entirely possible, but might be restrictive if this solution is intended to become widespread including places where those solutions aren't possible or at least are difficult. For example an insulated joint needs changes to the signalling, and some platforms aren't considered suitable for axle counters because of the problems if a wheel happens to stop on top of one. Better on the whole to have a solution that's as widely applicable as possible, and my suggestion of a four-rail solution with the outer rail at earth potential avoids all interfaces to the signalling.

 

[zwk500]

That's entirely possible, but might be restrictive if this solution is intended to become widespread including places where those solutions aren't possible or at least are difficult. For example an insulated joint needs changes to the signalling, and some platforms aren't considered suitable for axle counters because of the problems if a wheel happens to stop on top of one. Better on the whole to have a solution that's as widely applicable as possible, and my suggestion of a four-rail solution with the outer rail at earth potential avoids all interfaces to the signalling.

Fair enough!

 

[MML]

How many units would be required to replace all remaining Turbostar DMUs on the Thames Valley branch lines?
Assuming 2 car units may need to work in multiple on some lines to achieve capacity demand.
It would then allow all remaining 165/166 units to leave Reading for the West Country.

 

[Fincra5]

Extend the LUL 4th Rail system to West Ealing... less mods for the D Stock

 

[JonathanH]

How many units would be required to replace all remaining Turbostar DMUs on the Thames Valley branch lines?
Assuming 2 car units may need to work in multiple on some lines to achieve capacity demand.
It would then allow all remaining 165/166 units to leave Reading for the West Country.

The residual 165 fleet that you are looking to replace (after 769 introduction) has ten units, one for Greenford, one for Windsor, one for Marlow, one for Newbury to Bedwyn, five for Oxford locals and one spare.

That won't be replaced just by converting the Thames branches. It needs electrification to Oxford and Banbury as well.

You would most likely need double units on the Windsor and Henley branch and maybe on Bourne End peak services as well so that is eight units once you allow for doubling up (one Greenford, two Windsor, one Marlow, two Bourne End, two Henley)

 

[MarkyT]

For example an insulated joint needs changes to the signalling, and some platforms aren't considered suitable for axle counters because of the problems if a wheel happens to stop on top of one.

There's a solution for that being planned for forthcoming Birmingham New Street resignalling. It involves long artificial 'supervisory sections' being configured to be able to reset and restore any shorter sections wholly contained within them. Typically the supervisory section would be the full length of the platform, with the intermediate sections, usually provided for judging available space in connection with multiple train permissive occupancy, for splitting and joining moves etc. If a miscount occurs at one of these intermediate sensors, when the supervisory section for the whole platform next goes clear it will also automatically reset any intermediate sections erroneously left occupied. The technique has been used in Germany for many years.

Better on the whole to have a solution that's as widely applicable as possible, and my suggestion of a four-rail solution with the outer rail at earth potential avoids all interfaces to the signalling.

I agree that would be the best option in many cases, but perhaps the standard modular design could also allow the option of returning the charging current via the running rails, so in parts of the network where it might be useful, trains thus fitted could also draw charging current from existing 3rd rail infrastructure.

 

[edwin_m]

There's a solution for that being planned for forthcoming Birmingham New Street resignalling. It involves long artificial 'supervisory sections' being configured to be able to reset and restore any shorter sections wholly contained within them. Typically the supervisory section would be the full length of the platform, with the intermediate sections, usually provided for judging available space in connection with multiple train permissive occupancy, for splitting and joining moves etc. If a miscount occurs at one of these intermediate sensors, when the supervisory section for the whole platform next goes clear it will also automatically reset any intermediate sections erroneously left occupied. The technique has been used in Germany for many years.

Thanks for the information, I was vaguely aware that something like this was in the pipeline. However I think my point stands, that a system that costs about the same and doesn't require signalling changes will most likely win out. Signalling changes are safety-critical, require scarce resources and need a lot of time and money which could be better spared somewhere other than a country branch line.

I agree that would be the best option in many cases, but perhaps the standard modular design could also allow the option of returning the charging current via the running rails, so in parts of the network where it might be useful, trains thus fitted could also draw charging current from existing 3rd rail infrastructure.

That's a good point for any battery operations south of the Thames or near the Mersey. I imagine the units will be fairly localised, simply because they can't travel very far under their own power, so the fact some of them have their charging circuits wired differently and can't use each other's chargers might not matter too much.

 

[33Hz]

Siemens clearly now have a 2 car BEMU platform available (or will shortly) which could be suitable for these short branches. Time to look at this again?

Battery-electric multiple-units ordered to improve services and cut emissions

GERMANY: Niederbarnimer Eisenbahn has awarded Siemens Mobility a contract to supply a fleet of 31 battery-electric Mireo Plus B multiple-units for use on Netz Ostbrandenburg services northeast of Berlin. The order announced on November 15 includes spare parts and 12 years of maintenance, with...

www.railwaygazette.com

The BEMUs will be able to use 15 kV 16·7 Hz overhead electrification where available, with the lithium-ion batteries charged from the overhead and by regenerative braking and providing a range of more than 90 km on non-electrified tracks.

This is expected to reduced annual diesel consumption by around 4·4 million litres and eliminate local CO2 emissions. Depending on the electricity generating mix, the BEMUs could cut regional emissions by roughly 11 500 tonnes per year and also reduce particulates.


The two-car units will have three doors on each side, with easy boarding from low platforms for passengers with wheelchairs or pushchairs. There will be 128 seats, a family area and 12 spaces for bicycles, wheelchairs and pushchairs. Facilities will include free wi-fi, a real-time passenger information system and around 60 power sockets, as well as USB charging ports and locations for inductive charging.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Siemens clearly now have a 2 car BEMU platform available (or will shortly) which could be suitable for these short branches. Time to look at this again?

Battery-electric multiple-units ordered to improve services and cut emissions

GERMANY: Niederbarnimer Eisenbahn has awarded Siemens Mobility a contract to supply a fleet of 31 battery-electric Mireo Plus B multiple-units for use on Netz Ostbrandenburg services northeast of Berlin. The order announced on November 15 includes spare parts and 12 years of maintenance, with...

www.railwaygazette.com

Yup its a no brainer that BEMUs clearly have a place and as i said on 769 thread Porterbook should cut their losses and equip some with batteries vice the diesel engines to kick start this.

 

[Bald Rick]

Siemens clearly now have a 2 car BEMU platform available (or will shortly) which could be suitable for these short branches. Time to look at this again?

Battery-electric multiple-units ordered to improve services and cut emissions

GERMANY: Niederbarnimer Eisenbahn has awarded Siemens Mobility a contract to supply a fleet of 31 battery-electric Mireo Plus B multiple-units for use on Netz Ostbrandenburg services northeast of Berlin. The order announced on November 15 includes spare parts and 12 years of maintenance, with...

www.railwaygazette.com

Indeed, and I have been using this example of existing technology for over a year now. Note the off juice range is 90km.

 

[Mikey C]

Siemens clearly now have a 2 car BEMU platform available (or will shortly) which could be suitable for these short branches. Time to look at this again?

Battery-electric multiple-units ordered to improve services and cut emissions

GERMANY: Niederbarnimer Eisenbahn has awarded Siemens Mobility a contract to supply a fleet of 31 battery-electric Mireo Plus B multiple-units for use on Netz Ostbrandenburg services northeast of Berlin. The order announced on November 15 includes spare parts and 12 years of maintenance, with...

www.railwaygazette.com

It would need adapting for the UK loading gauge, but yes, the technology is there now

 

[JN114]

Siemens clearly now have a 2 car BEMU platform available (or will shortly) which could be suitable for these short branches. Time to look at this again?

Battery-electric multiple-units ordered to improve services and cut emissions

GERMANY: Niederbarnimer Eisenbahn has awarded Siemens Mobility a contract to supply a fleet of 31 battery-electric Mireo Plus B multiple-units for use on Netz Ostbrandenburg services northeast of Berlin. The order announced on November 15 includes spare parts and 12 years of maintenance, with...

www.railwaygazette.com

While Siemens have the technology available, I don’t see it being adapted for UK loading gauge in time for the start of the contract…

There’s no announcement yet, so I’ll be happily surprised if anything different shows up - but there’s only 1 logical way this tender is being awarded…

 

[swt_passenger]

There’s no announcement yet, so I’ll be happily surprised if anything different shows up - but there’s only 1 logical way this tender is being awarded…

…as has now been announced with a new thread today in the general discussion forum.

 

[JonathanH]

From a purely speculative point of view, I wonder whether if the test is successful using the 230, VivaRail might be able to put the technology under something more suitable, such as a 466, for any squadron application to the Cornish branches.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From a purely speculative point of view, I wonder whether if the test is successful using the 230, VivaRail might be able to put the technology under something more suitable, such as a 466, for any squadron application to the Cornish branches.

I don't think a 230 is specifically unsuitable, the Marston Vale units just feel like a slightly different 150 (give or take unreliability which relates mainly to the diesel engines), and a Tube style interior would suit the likes of Windsor and Marlow very well, particularly if you can get a 3-car into the reversing platform. However yes, I'd expect it's a technology prover and it could well end up underneath something entirely different, possibly even brand-new. The D78s are essentially just EMUs to try stuff out with now there is no major customer to purchase a fleet of them.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think a 230 is specifically unsuitable, the Marston Vale units just feel like a slightly different 150 (give or take unreliability which relates mainly to the diesel engines).

I didn't say the 230 was unsuitable just that a 466 (or two driving cars of a 465) offers a potentially better passenger environment.

 

[Irascible]

Extend the LUL 4th Rail system to West Ealing... less mods for the D Stock

If you're going to do that you might as well extend it all the way to Greenford :P I did have a look at West to Broadway once, that looks incredibly expensive. Also yes I'm aware this is half a year later.

I didn't say the 230 was unsuitable just that a 466 (or two driving cars of a 465) offers a potentially better passenger environment.

Is there anything in common with the 165/166s other than the rough shape? thinking about logistics & servicing.