GWML Closures for Old Oak Common

[Horizon22]

Nobody is going to travel from places west of Reading to access HS2. They will just go directly to Birmingham and beyond.

It would be 30 min extra (20 minutes train + 10 minute change) or 40 to be kind, then HS2. It's about 90-100 minutes from Reading to Birmingham, assuming your connection is kind.

You have to change once either route anyway, so I'm not so sure your assumption is correct. Everything will stop at OOC.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2022 ==

If OOC is to become a major rail hub and all GW trains stop there could this become a future threat to Paddington itself?

No - you still need the capacity to terminate trains somewhere. Paddington could see itself as a "glorified terminus" potentially, although there's probably just about enough going on there - and a connection to the Bakerloo line - that it should be fine.

 

[AlastairFraser]

That people mover isnt going to be that quick. Factor in a connection time for it at both ends and its journey time.

6 mins journey time according to the HS2 website, add 4 mins for platform to platform. It's going to be at least 5 mins quicker, add journey time changes at OOC onto HS2 and the gap gets wider.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2022 ==

Because I believe it will be a considerably more pleasant journey. And in any case, is it necessarily a given that Euston/Glasgow trains using HS2 will actually all stop at Birmingham Interchange?

Edited to add;
No doubt it will be better post HS2, but at present the direct service from Birmingham to Glasgow is precisely one (1) train per day, leaving Birmingham International at 1855 and arriving at Glasgow Central at 2317. I believe more trains will run after the December timetable train, but only at four (4) hourly intervals, and even pre-Covid the service was two-hourly; Whereas of course Euston/Glasgow is hourly. Therefore travelling via OOC will be a realistic and attractive option.

1tph HS2 services going to Glasgow will stop at Birmingham Interchange, if any more will run given the cancellation of the Golborne Link is unknown yet because there is limited capacity north of Crewe.

Current services between Bham Intl. and Glasgow are not in any way comparable - currently London to Glasgow services are on the Trent Valley. They will all be moved to HS2 through Birmingham Interchange when it opens.

Besides, you only have to spend 15 more mins on XC's Brum service conventional rail, compared to if you took GWR into OOC from London.
Likely the stock situation on XC will be relieved by the time even HS2 phase 1 opens, it's only a matter of time before AWC's Class 221s go off lease, and a few years before the 222s from EMR head off lease too.

 

[Sean Emmett]

I have done more than a few trips from Inverness to Bristol via Kings Cross and Paddington on split apex tickets, which have worked out far cheaper than the more direct XC voyager option.

I left enough padding at PAD (yawn) for beer and a meal, and still not much longer timewise than the XC option.

OOC will make this sort of journey even more convenient. Even better if they have a 'spoons!

 

[Falcon1200]

1tph HS2 services going to Glasgow will stop at Birmingham Interchange

So is the plan for all services using HS2 to stop at Birmingham Interchange?

 

[The Planner]

6 mins journey time according to the HS2 website, add 4 mins for platform to platform. It's going to be at least 5 mins quicker, add journey time changes at OOC onto HS2 and the gap gets wider.

No way will there be a 4 minute connection either end. Standard connectional allowance is 5 anyway, and factor in having to wait for a shuttle etc...

 

[robert thomas]

I have done more than a few trips from Inverness to Bristol via Kings Cross and Paddington on split apex tickets, which have worked out far cheaper than the more direct XC voyager option.

I left enough padding at PAD (yawn) for beer and a meal, and still not much longer timewise than the XC option.

OOC will make this sort of journey even more convenient. Even better if they have a 'spoons!

 

[Bald Rick]

So is the plan for all services using HS2 to stop at Birmingham Interchange?

Nope.

 

[Falcon1200]

Nope.

That's what I thought, especially where longer distance services, eg Euston/Glasgow, are concerned.

 

[AlastairFraser]

So is the plan for all services using HS2 to stop at Birmingham Interchange?

No, but, as there will not be a 2nd Euston to Glasgow service due to capacity constraints upon the opening of HS2 Phase 2 (sans Golborne link), the service will likely be forced to stop in Birmingham Interchange as Birmingham/East Mids to Scotland flows were used to justify part of the business case.
But this is off topic I digress and this will be the last topic I make on this matter.

No way will there be a 4 minute connection either end. Standard connectional allowance is 5 anyway, and factor in having to wait for a shuttle etc...

The shuttle will be every 3 mins, even if you incorporated the standard 5 mins and the max wait time for the shuttle, it'd still be marginally quicker than the OOC routes.
And that's without taking up capacity on a congested intercity route not likely to receive any foreseeable capacity increases (Oxford to London), whereas XC capacity is foreseeably due for a massive increase rather soon.

 

[zwk500]

The shuttle will be every 3 weeks, even if you incorporated the standard 5 mins and the max wait time for the shuttle, it'd still be marginally quicker than the OOC routes.

You don't have high hopes for the HS2 service frequency, do you? [ERROR NOW FIXED]

 

[AlastairFraser]

You don't have high hopes for the HS2 service frequency, do you?

Oh, ffs, I'll correct it. My brain is probably questioning why I'm praising HS2 so much today, wondering if I've had a bump to the head!

 

[Benjwri]

Speaking of the GWML and OOC, does anyone know what the plan is regarding signalling?
Obviously when OOC was envisaged the GWML was going to be upgraded to ETCS, but that has been shelved, so will all of OOC be conventional signalling? If so what will happen to Elizabeth Line services, presumably they’ll need to change over from ETCS before reaching OOC, considering the seeming difficultly they have doing this, is it really smart to increase the mount of trains changing over by 50%? Or is this another part of HS2 that hasn’t been thought out?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Speaking of the GWML and OOC, does anyone know what the plan is regarding signalling?
Obviously when OOC was envisaged the GWML was going to be upgraded to ETCS, but that has been shelved, so will all of OOC be conventional signalling? If so what will happen to Elizabeth Line services, presumably they’ll need to change over from ETCS before reaching OOC, considering the seeming difficultly they have doing this, is it really smart to increase the mount of trains changing over by 50%? Or is this another part of HS2 that hasn’t been thought out?

I'm pretty sure ETCS is only on the Heathrow section, so it'll not need resignalling.

 

[zwk500]

Speaking of the GWML and OOC, does anyone know what the plan is regarding signalling?
Obviously when OOC was envisaged the GWML was going to be upgraded to ETCS, but that has been shelved, so will all of OOC be conventional signalling? If so what will happen to Elizabeth Line services, presumably they’ll need to change over from ETCS before reaching OOC, considering the seeming difficultly they have doing this, is it really smart to increase the mount of trains changing over by 50%? Or is this another part of HS2 that hasn’t been thought out?

XR already change from CBTC to Signals + Overlay just beyond Westbourne Park. IIRC they use the ETCS as ATP, but use Signals as the movement authority. So from an operating point of view there'll be no change for XR at OOC. HS2 will be ETCS Level 2 throughout, as they're in a completely separate part of the station.

 

[Bald Rick]

If so what will happen to Elizabeth Line services, presumably they’ll need to change over from ETCS before reaching OOC, considering the seeming difficultly they have doing this, is it really smart to increase the mount of trains changing over by 50%? Or is this another part of HS2 that hasn’t been thought out?

Um, Elizabeth Line trains change from ETCS to conventional signalling (or vice versa) about a thousand times a week. It’s not a problem.

 

[zwk500]

Oh, ffs, I'll correct it. My brain is probably questioning why I'm praising HS2 so much today, wondering if I've had a bump to the head!

 

[Benjwri]

I'm pretty sure ETCS is only on the Heathrow section, so it'll not need resignalling.

ETCS in the Heathrow section yes, but CBTC in the Elizabeth Line tunnels.

XR already change from CBTC to Signals + Overlay just beyond Westbourne Park.

Yes but until OOC is completed, the 50% of trains that reverse at Westbourne Park do not change over at that end of the route. Once OOC opens, if it is conventionally signalled, those trains will all have to changeover again to reach it.

Um, Elizabeth Line trains change from ETCS to conventional signalling (or vice versa) about a thousand times a week. It’s not a problem.

The majority changeover fine (To CBTC) but a couple a day don’t manage it, seemingly especially at Stratford. We just don’t hear about it because they quickly send them into the high level platforms, and you can never see on departure boards in the COC that it’s been cancelled.

There’s also the seemly in mentioned fact that this will undeniably decrease the frequency of the line. TfL have been clear they don’t have plans to order more trains, and to get to 24tph with the current fleet auto reverse is required at Westbourne Park. OOC adds another station, and Auto Reverse cannot be used with passengers onboard (Or conventional signalling), further slowing services. Surely once OOC opens the Elizabeth Line will have to drop below even 20tph?

 

[zwk500]

ETCS in the Heathrow section yes, but CBTC in the Elizabeth Line tunnels.

IIRC, the GWML does have ETCS overlaid but it only performs the PTC/ATP function, not MA as over L2 Overlays do.

Yes but until OOC is completed, the 50% of trains that reverse at Westbourne Park do not change over at that end of the route. Once OOC opens, if it is conventionally signalled, those trains will all have to changeover again to reach it.

But the point is they're doing it every few minutes, and will continue to do it in the same place, so more trains changing over isn't a problem.

The majority changeover fine (To CBTC) but a couple a day don’t manage it, seemingly especially at Stratford. We just don’t hear about it because they quickly send them into the high level platforms, and you can never see on departure boards in the COC that it’s been cancelled.

But the changeover to CBTC at Paddington is what's relevant here, not Stratford. The GEML and GWML are slightly different setups in their conventional signalling.

There’s also the seemly in mentioned fact that this will undeniably decrease the frequency of the line. TfL have been clear they don’t have plans to order more trains, and to get to 24tph with the current fleet auto reverse is required at Westbourne Park. OOC adds another station, and Auto Reverse cannot be used with passengers onboard (Or conventional signalling), further slowing services. Surely once OOC opens the Elizabeth Line will have to drop below even 20tph?

I'm pretty sure the current fleet was ordered with the eventual configuration in mind.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Unless plans change, HS2 will be ETCS controlled from Washwood Heath, while the GWML will remain as it is, controlled from Didcot.

 

[HSTEd]

So the GWML ETCS installation has been cut back to defacto Level 1?

What was the point of spending all the money then if it can't even issue movement authorities......

 

[Benjwri]

What was the point of spending all the money then if it can't even issue movement authorities......

There never was any money spent, because they canned the project. The money was spent on electrification and upgrading the conventional signalling.

 

[Bald Rick]

The majority changeover fine (To CBTC) but a couple a day don’t manage it, seemingly especially at Stratford. We just don’t hear about it because they quickly send them into the high level platforms, and you can never see on departure boards in the COC that it’s been cancelled.

There’s been no recent transition failures at Westbourne Park / Paddington.

There ar at Stratford, westbound, but this is a known issue there and is CBTC related, not ETCS.

There’s also the seemly in mentioned fact that this will undeniably decrease the frequency of the line.

It won’t.

 

[JN114]

ETCS on the Heathrow Branch is full Level 2 - Movement Authority over Radio/Data communication, train position detection by conventional signalling.

It is installed as an overlay as there is no real reason to do away with the lineside signals and they do aid degraded working significantly.

ETCS Level 2 overlay should have been installed to Old Oak Common by the time the mainline station is completed - it is fitted but currently out of use on the GWML proper between Ealing and West Drayton.

 

[zwk500]

ETCS on the Heathrow Branch is full Level 2 - Movement Authority over Radio/Data communication, train position detection by conventional signalling.

It is installed as an overlay as there is no real reason to do away with the lineside signals and they do aid degraded working significantly.

ETCS Level 2 overlay should have been installed to Old Oak Common by the time the mainline station is completed - it is fitted but currently out of use on the GWML proper between Ealing and West Drayton.

Are Class 345's running without ATP protection then, if ETCS is out of use?

 

[hwl]

Are Class 345's running without ATP protection then, if ETCS is out of use?

ATP isn't required at Crossrail speeds in this case ORR was happy with TPWS+

 

[JN114]

Are Class 345's running without ATP protection then, if ETCS is out of use?

They run conventional TPWS between Westbourne Park / Padd High Level and Heathrow Tunnel Jn / Reading; just as they do out east.

 

[zwk500]

ATP isn't required at Crossrail speeds in this case ORR was happy with TPWS+

Ahh, interesting. Thanks!

 

[Horizon22]

So the GWML ETCS installation has been cut back to defacto Level 1?

What was the point of spending all the money then if it can't even issue movement authorities......

There are plans for ETCS Level 2 between Hayes and Paddington, but I think that wasn't planned for until 2023 and I think it's already been delayed.

A 345 running Heathrow to Abbey Wood will do ETCS > TPWS > CBTC

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Dec 2022 ==

Unless plans change, HS2 will be ETCS controlled from Washwood Heath, while the GWML will remain as it is, controlled from Didcot.

And indeed separate infrastructure can be geographically close (underneath in this case at OOC) and be on completely different signalling systems. Already happens on the Elizabeth line.

 

[AlastairFraser]

ETCS in the Heathrow section yes, but CBTC in the Elizabeth Line tunnels.

Yes but until OOC is completed, the 50% of trains that reverse at Westbourne Park do not change over at that end of the route. Once OOC opens, if it is conventionally signalled, those trains will all have to changeover again to reach it.

The majority changeover fine (To CBTC) but a couple a day don’t manage it, seemingly especially at Stratford. We just don’t hear about it because they quickly send them into the high level platforms, and you can never see on departure boards in the COC that it’s been cancelled.

There’s also the seemly in mentioned fact that this will undeniably decrease the frequency of the line. TfL have been clear they don’t have plans to order more trains, and to get to 24tph with the current fleet auto reverse is required at Westbourne Park. OOC adds another station, and Auto Reverse cannot be used with passengers onboard (Or conventional signalling), further slowing services. Surely once OOC opens the Elizabeth Line will have to drop below even 20tph?

CBTC is a completely different system and, as far as I remember, the majority of software issues with the Class 345 came from the ETCS/ATP interfacing in the Heathrow tunnels. OOC is way beyond the change over point for either CBTC or ETCS and the current running from Heathrow/Reading into the tunnels at Westbourne Park has proven near faultless. There's no reason it would change with just a few additional starting and platform signals added at OOC since it is conventional and manually driven on the legacy signalling system here, human error is much more likely.

 

[matt_world2004]

ETCS in the Heathrow section yes, but CBTC in the Elizabeth Line tunnels.

Yes but until OOC is completed, the 50% of trains that reverse at Westbourne Park do not change over at that end of the route. Once OOC opens, if it is conventionally signalled, those trains will all have to changeover again to reach it.

The majority changeover fine (To CBTC) but a couple a day don’t manage it, seemingly especially at Stratford. We just don’t hear about it because they quickly send them into the high level platforms, and you can never see on departure boards in the COC that it’s been cancelled.

There’s also the seemly in mentioned fact that this will undeniably decrease the frequency of the line. TfL have been clear they don’t have plans to order more trains, and to get to 24tph with the current fleet auto reverse is required at Westbourne Park. OOC adds another station, and Auto Reverse cannot be used with passengers onboard (Or conventional signalling), further slowing services. Surely once OOC opens the Elizabeth Line will have to drop below even 20tph?

Wasn't the fleet for crossrail ordered based on the assumption of extending the 24tph to old oak common .also it is likely that they would extend cbtc to old oak common when it is built. The Elizabeth line is going to remain on segregated tracks until old oak common