GWML Closures for Old Oak Common

[brad465]

A direct train from my house (Taunton) to Manchester takes 3h 50m. Via OOC it will be about 2.5 hours of travel, plus changing. So an hour quicker than the direct service which only runs a couple of times a day, and much quicker than anything involving changing in Birmingham.

It will entirely depend on pricing as to which is the sensible route to take

I was going to say if HS2 use has a surcharge like HS1 services do, the current direct route would be cheaper, but then I remembered XC run it so it's all to play for.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Perhaps if the GWR goods depot at Paddington had not been demolished and the land sold that could have been an HS2 terminus.

 

[zwk500]

If OOC is to become a major rail hub and all GW trains stop there could this become a future threat to Paddington itself?

No, Paddington is required to give the platform capacity turn services round.

Perhaps if the GWR goods depot at Paddington had not been demolished and the land sold that could have been an HS2 terminus.

Euston is a better location - it's right on the edge of central London, has far better tube and overground connections, and is 10 minutes walk from King's Cross & St Pancras.

 

[swt_passenger]

I remember catching a FGW HST from Waterloo non-stop to Reading about 20 years ago during a blockade -- pretty sure it went via. Ascot / Wokingham etc. on the SWT route and on to Reading, but happy to be corrected! Fully appreciate that HSTs and IETs are completely differerent beasts, of course.

During the major Reading work HSTs initially went via Salisbury, Basingstoke, Woking, Byfleet Curve and Staines, but after further gauging they went directly into Waterloo, via Woking and Wimbledon. But during the whole project how many days did FGW actually use Waterloo, did it even reach double figures?

IETs have run Reading to Eastleigh works via Basingstoke for a while now, I expect clearing them to Waterloo will be possible, but will it even be necessary?

The Reading station remodelling included 2 brand new island platforms 12-15, (built offline outside the railway in a “high street” environment), one completely rebuilt island platform 10-11, one realigned side platform 7. A reasonably normal train service ran through the worksites for years, with only a few full blocks probably totalling less than a month in total.

The difference with Old Oak is that during the build they won’t need to have any platforms open, and don’t have to deal with temporary access for passengers at all. Why shouldn’t they also be able to build at least the four relief platforms completely offline before they even start any track work?

 

[FGW_DID]

Reconfigure trains east of Swindon to operate as 9+5car IET or 16car 387s

my bold: 12 car is the max formation for 387s.

 

[Snow1964]

my bold: 12 car is the max formation for 387s.

Is 12 the max due to software and technical limitations, or because no one normally chooses to couple 4 sets together because of limited suitable platforms.

In the past Virgin ran 15car 221s on some diverted crowd busters, they were longer than 16x 20m

 

[gingertom]

my bold: 12 car is the max formation for 387s.

a 16-car 387 would have 4 pantographs raised- is this the limiting factor?

 

[stuu]

I was going to say if HS2 use has a surcharge like HS1 services do, the current direct route would be cheaper, but then I remembered XC run it so it's all to play for.

Indeed... I just checked and it's £20 cheaper to go via London next week, let alone when HS2 provides much more capacity

 

[brad465]

a 16-car 387 would have 4 pantographs raised- is this the limiting factor?

I would have thought platform lengths is the issue, if pantographs raised was they could presumably just keep down the one's that go over the limit.

 

[swt_passenger]

I would have thought platform lengths is the issue, if pantographs raised was they could presumably just keep down the one's that go over the limit.

Then you’d have a completely unpowered unit in the overall train, with little or no lighting and no aircon working.

 

[The Planner]

Is 12 the max due to software and technical limitations, or because no one normally chooses to couple 4 sets together because of limited suitable platforms.

In the past Virgin ran 15car 221s on some diverted crowd busters, they were longer than 16x 20m

They didn't stop anywhere south of Cov though, where they were fine in the platforms.

 

[Wokingham]

Does anyone have pictures of hst and iets at/passing Ascot and Wokingham?

 

[FGW_DID]

Nothing to do with platform lengths, must be a technical restriction. Even on depot we are restricted to a maximum of 12 vehicles in a formation (being able to shunt 2x8 cars together would be very handy). The same 12 vehicle restriction stands for DMUs as well.

 

[Techniquest]

Yes they will, I will be travelling between Oxford and Glasgow via OOC and HS2, one day.....

Similar for me, if I'm still in Hereford when HS2 opens I will absolutely be going via Old Oak Common when possible. It's a long way round, of course, but on the limited amount of times I need to do such a journey per year, it will 100% be better than changing in Crewe off whatever we have running the South Wales to Manchester services by then.

Of course, I hope to have moved to somewhere better connected before HS2 opens!

 

[D365]

Isn't it great that GWR was ripped apart for best part of five years to get it electrified and now it has to suffer the same fate again for no benefit to its passengers. DfT should have leant on the industry to design a solution that absolutely minimised disruption.

As has been pointed out, that section of the GWML was already electrified... construction of this station has nothing to do with past or present electrification works.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As has been pointed out, that section of the GWML was already electrified... construction of this station has nothing to do with past or present electrification works.

Umm im not really bothered about that its the overall journey experience at weekends that was impacted for anybody that wanted to travel from Wales or the West of England who were told to endure all that disruption because it would improve there travelling experience.

 

[cactustwirly]

Passengers will presumably have to travel on SWR services from Reading into Waterloo. These days, when necessary, capacity is usually provided by diverting Windsor trains to Reading, Weybridge trains to Windsor and having Chertsey and Addlestone served by buses.


That might only mean bank holiday weekends, not necessarily week long blockades.

The signalling is being upgraded on the Reading to Waterloo line until 2024, with rail replacement buses almost every weekend.

So that isn't an acceptable route.
Pity the NNML has been disconnected

 

[HSTEd]

Presuming tickets for HS2 follow the example of HS1, that gap is only going to get bigger. It’s not going to be financially viable to travel via OOC from very far west.

That's one hell of an assumption.

Given the subsidy regime that prevails on the classic railway, pricing people off HS2 and onto the classic lines would be the Government making a bonfire of banknotes.

The Government will want literally everyone that can be shunted onto HS2 shunted onto it, given that doing so will save it vast sums of money.

HS1 is a fundamentally different beast, with hardly any capacity being available due to the design of St Pancras. If the St Pancras rebuild had been done better, it's likely the surcharge situation would not exist today.

 

[Falcon1200]

As part os the HS2 remodelling, they'll build a direct connection between Euston and Euston Square.

That will certainly be a good thing, albeit 150 years too late, and made less necessary by OOC interchange!

You also don't need to cross the road even now, there's an entrance on the North side of Euston Road (albeit not step free).

Last time I used Euston Square, just a few weeks ago, the signposted route from Euston involved crossing Melton St.

 

[D365]

Umm im not really bothered about that its the overall journey experience at weekends that was impacted for anybody that wanted to travel from Wales or the West of England who were told to endure all that disruption because it would improve there travelling experience.

Again, construction for Old Oak Common has nothing to do with electrification, which was completed some years ago. What better solution do you have in mind?

 

[The Planner]

The signalling is being upgraded on the Reading to Waterloo line until 2024, with rail replacement buses almost every weekend.

So that isn't an acceptable route.
Pity the NNML has been disconnected

The OOC work starts post 2024 up to 2029 so that won't be an issue. The NNML wouldn't have helped either as that starts to the west of OOC station.

 

[Roast Veg]

No, Paddington is required to give the platform capacity turn services round.

I'm sure it'll end up like London Bridge and Cannon Street/Charing Cross. If people have time, they'll grab a seat at the terminus.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Again, construction for Old Oak Common has nothing to do with electrification, which was completed some years ago. What better solution do you have in mind?

Slew the reliefs over as far as you can even at the expense of reduced speed to create space to build some of the platforms then stage lines back to release space to complete platform works. Im not saying it won't need some extended blocks to tie in new tracks and signalling changes but vision should be to design a construction sequence that minimises extended closures for signalling and track changes only.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Yes they will, I will be travelling between Oxford and Glasgow via OOC and HS2, one day.....

Why would you do this? 1hr from Oxford to Bham Intl., while Oxford to OOC is 45 mins and then OOC Bham Interchange will be 31 mins. Allowing for interchange time, you slow yourself down, even if proceeding further.
Better to use XC to Bham Intl., then use the proposed people mover to change on HS2 there.

 

[Falcon1200]

Why would you do this?

Because I believe it will be a considerably more pleasant journey. And in any case, is it necessarily a given that Euston/Glasgow trains using HS2 will actually all stop at Birmingham Interchange?

Edited to add;
No doubt it will be better post HS2, but at present the direct service from Birmingham to Glasgow is precisely one (1) train per day, leaving Birmingham International at 1855 and arriving at Glasgow Central at 2317. I believe more trains will run after the December timetable train, but only at four (4) hourly intervals, and even pre-Covid the service was two-hourly; Whereas of course Euston/Glasgow is hourly. Therefore travelling via OOC will be a realistic and attractive option.

 

[The Planner]

Why would you do this? 1hr from Oxford to Bham Intl., while Oxford to OOC is 45 mins and then OOC Bham Interchange will be 31 mins. Allowing for interchange time, you slow yourself down, even if proceeding further.
Better to use XC to Bham Intl., then use the proposed people mover to change on HS2 there.

That people mover isnt going to be that quick. Factor in a connection time for it at both ends and its journey time.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I imagine the plan will be to build new Relief lines and 2 islands/4 platforms on the vacant space in the OOC site north of the current GWML, and then remodel the Main lines across the current 4-track site to deliver another 2 islands/4 platforms.
But there will have to be new layouts east and west of the station area to provide the turnouts to the new layout, and the whole thing will extend over about 1km.

 

[cle]

I imagine the plan will be to build new Relief lines and 2 islands/4 platforms on the vacant space in the OOC site north of the current GWML, and then remodel the Main lines across the current 4-track site to deliver another 2 islands/4 platforms.
But there will have to be new layouts east and west of the station area to provide the turnouts to the new layout, and the whole thing will extend over about 1km.

Exactly, it's Reading. 2 platforms per direction, and per fast/relief. Assumption that the inner relief faces are the Crossrail terminators - but of course will all be flexible.

And if I remember correctly, HS2 is due for 3 islands and 6 faces. Rationale being that it'll be the terminus for a long while until Euston is done, and that boarding/disembarking will be slower. That'll probably be roomy, and future/final state I'd think 2x2 would work, but nice to have the reassurance.

 

[plugwash]

If OOC is to become a major rail hub and all GW trains stop there could this become a future threat to Paddington itself?

Assuming HS2 is affordable OOC is likely to become a major interchange for those coming from the north and heading out into GWR land, to Heathrow or to stations served by the elizibeth line.

But there will still be plenty of places in London that have direct tube services from paddington but are not served by the Elizibeth line. Including most of the main rail terminals. Paddington may see a drop but I bet it will still be well used.

An interesting question is whether it will be acceptable ticketing wise to use HS2 to travel from Old oak common to Euston instead of using the underground from paddington to Euston square.

 

[Bald Rick]

If OOC is to become a major rail hub and all GW trains stop there could this become a future threat to Paddington itself?

No.