GWML Closures for Old Oak Common

[Benjwri]

The Department for Transport has shed light on the disruption passengers can expect during the five years when Old Oak Common station is constructed. The station will be the inaugural terminus of HS2 and feature platforms on the Great Western main line (GWML).

‘Between 2023 and the end of 2028, work will significantly ramp up with access to Paddington via the GWML expected to be unavailable for extended periods’ said the DfT in its response to a consultation on Grand Union Trains’ proposed services between London and Carmarthen.

I came across this article a while back, which claims we are going to start to see access to Paddington unavailable ‘for extended periods’ from 2023 to 2028. Having just looked at GWR’s disruption calendar something has appeared at Paddington in early May, and I was wondering if this is the start of the mentioned disruption.

Do we also have any idea what the disruption will look like? The article makes the valid points that likely trains will not be able to get out of North Pole, meaning a lack of IETs during blockades, what kind of disruption can we expect over the whole network at these times?

It also mentions arrangements will have to be made to transport passengers to another London Terminal. Since every other line has nowhere near the capacity, how is this possible?

 

[JonathanH]

It also mentions arrangements will have to be made to transport passengers to another London Terminal. Since every other line has nowhere near the capacity, how is this possible?

Passengers will presumably have to travel on SWR services from Reading into Waterloo. These days, when necessary, capacity is usually provided by diverting Windsor trains to Reading, Weybridge trains to Windsor and having Chertsey and Addlestone served by buses.

going to start to see access to Paddington unavailable ‘for extended periods’ from 2023 to 2028

That might only mean bank holiday weekends, not necessarily week long blockades.

 

[zwk500]

I came across this article a while back, which claims we are going to start to see access to Paddington unavailable ‘for extended periods’ from 2023 to 2028. Having just looked at GWR’s disruption calendar something has appeared at Paddington in early May, and I was wondering if this is the start of the mentioned disruption.

Do we also have any idea what the disruption will look like? The article makes the valid points that likely trains will not be able to get out of North Pole, meaning a lack of IETs during blockades, what kind of disruption can we expect over the whole network at these times?

I would expect it to look somewhat similar to the Euston rebuild: whole-station closures limited to 9-day blockades around major holidays, with the odd weekend all-line block as well but some form of limited access maintained through the week. Euston is probably less disruptive, Paddington may well see long periods of 2-track working. It's vaguely possible the connection out of the back of North Pole depot to the WLL could be used to get trains out.

It also mentions arrangements will have to be made to transport passengers to another London Terminal. Since every other line has nowhere near the capacity, how is this possible?

Try and spread capacity between Waterloo (Reading/Salisbury), Marylebone (Oxford/Banbury) and Euston (via Birmingham), diverting passengers more than trains. Also presumably Ealing Broadway forms part of the plans, with the district line.

 

[swt_passenger]

This was the subject of a short discussion in the main HS2 construction thread when Modern Railways first ran the story:

HS2 construction updates

Better wire Acton Bank so that some GWML trains can reach Euston...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I came across this article a while back, which claims we are going to start to see access to Paddington unavailable ‘for extended periods’ from 2023 to 2028. Having just looked at GWR’s disruption calendar something has appeared at Paddington in early May, and I was wondering if this is the start of the mentioned disruption.

Isn't it great that GWR was ripped apart for best part of five years to get it electrified and now it has to suffer the same fate again for no benefit to its passengers. DfT should have leant on the industry to design a solution that absolutely minimised disruption.

 

[JonathanH]

DfT should have leant on the industry to design a solution that absolutely minimised disruption.

What would that be? No platforms on the GWML at Old Oak Common? Probably would have been quite easy to minimise disruption that way.

 

[Benjwri]

Isn't it great that GWR was ripped apart for best part of five years to get it electrified and now it has to suffer the same fate again for no benefit to its passengers. DfT should have leant on the industry to design a solution that absolutely minimised disruption.

It does seem interesting that they decided upon trying to create a ‘mega hub’, yet are giving it no direct access to a tube or overground line. Perhaps is should have been asked what the benefits are from making every GWML service stop there, rather than for example creating a smaller interchange with just the Elizabeth line, reducing disruption during construction and not slowing express services.

I highly doubt many people would complain about having to take a 24tph service for a few minutes.

 

[JonathanH]

for example creating a smaller interchange with just the Elizabeth line, reducing disruption during construction and not slowing express services.

Two track railway possessions and the importance of Old Oak Common as an interchange would require main line platforms even if there weren't main line services stopping there in normal service.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

What would that be? No platforms on the GWML at Old Oak Common? Probably would have been quite easy to minimise disruption that way.

You could have put in temporary tracks to allow the core part of the station to be built and then tied it all in under a long Xmas closure.

 

[zwk500]

You could have put in temporary tracks to allow the core part of the station to be built and then tied it all in under a long Xmas closure.

Remembering that Paddington-Heathrow was wired in the 90's, was OOC depot fully closed and demolished when the GWML modernisation programme was in the area?

 

[Benjwri]

Two track railway possessions and the importance of Old Oak Common as an interchange would require fast line platforms even if there weren't main line services stopping there in normal service.

Surely Old Oak Common isn’t that important? Connecting from the west via Paddington and Euston has worked since the railways began.
Regardless surely a track used solely by the Elizabeth Line, or even a tunnel had things been thought out in advance, would be just as likely to be closed as any other part of the line, or even just as likely as HS2 itself.

 

[zwk500]

Surely Old Oak Common isn’t that important? Connecting from the west via Paddington and Euston has worked since the railways began.

HS2 wasn't there when the Railways began. If you're going to avoid overloading Euston tube station, you need the OOC transfer for HS2 to the City of London and Canary Wharf.

Regardless surely a track used solely by the Elizabeth Line, or even a tunnel had things been thought out in advance, would be just as likely to be closed as any other part of the line, or even just as likely as HS2 itself.

I love the 'had things been thought out in advance', as if Crossrail just turned up at the DfT's office with a napkin and some pencils when applying for funding.

Dedicated Crossrail infrastructure would still have needed to join the GWML Relief lines at some point, as building new railway out to Heathrow and Reading was cost-prohibitive. As XR were going to be largely taking over the RL services anyway, the most sensible place to join them up was just after the tunnel emerged outside Paddington. As you've now got XR running on the classic lines, you can easily weave them to the MLs when the 2-track is in operation on evenings and weekends (or whenever the Western do it, knowing them it'll be something like 11.30-15.30 on Tuesday's because that's when Brunel took lunch).

Also, as some XR trains will be starting at OOC allowing long-distance travellers to board empty trains there helps passenger flow at Paddington as there won't be a herd piling off one train and charging straight to the XR platforms.

 

[fgwrich]

I would expect it to look somewhat similar to the Euston rebuild: whole-station closures limited to 9-day blockades around major holidays, with the odd weekend all-line block as well but some form of limited access maintained through the week. Euston is probably less disruptive, Paddington may well see long periods of 2-track working. It's vaguely possible the connection out of the back of North Pole depot to the WLL could be used to get trains out.

Try and spread capacity between Waterloo (Reading/Salisbury), Marylebone (Oxford/Banbury) and Euston (via Birmingham), diverting passengers more than trains. Also presumably Ealing Broadway forms part of the plans, with the district line.

Presumably IETs haven't been cleared further up the SWML, so no possible repeat of the diverts which took them to Waterloo via Salisbury or Reading & Basingstoke.

 

[zwk500]

Presumably IETs haven't been cleared further up the SWML, so no possible repeat of the diverts which took them to Waterloo via Salisbury or Reading & Basingstoke.

No idea, I'm afraid. I'd imagine not, although in theory they could be. But it's probably more capacity to strengthen existing formations than to try and hammer diverted paths through a busy timetable.

 

[Jimini]

I remember catching a FGW HST from Waterloo non-stop to Reading about 20 years ago during a blockade -- pretty sure it went via. Ascot / Wokingham etc. on the SWT route and on to Reading, but happy to be corrected! Fully appreciate that HSTs and IETs are completely differerent beasts, of course.

 

[Horizon22]

Isn't it great that GWR was ripped apart for best part of five years to get it electrified and now it has to suffer the same fate again for no benefit to its passengers. DfT should have leant on the industry to design a solution that absolutely minimised disruption.

No benefit to passengers? An eventual integrated link with HS2 and Elizabeth Line services?

Anyway yes I imagine this is going to be rather disruptive and its unavoidable if you need to gradually skew all the lines to meet up with the integrated station. I imagine it will look something how London Bridge was done in terms of lines, however there's no diverting to Charing Cross or Cannon Street available here. 4 platforms for a two track railway as well. I'm sure it will be done in chunks, with lots of 2 track running at certain times. It will also be interesting to see how the Elizabeth line copes, considering the largest depot by some distance is at Old Oak Common.

I am aware its going to be quite disruptive in the next year and onwards.

 

[stuu]

Isn't it great that GWR was ripped apart for best part of five years to get it electrified and now it has to suffer the same fate again for no benefit to its passengers. DfT should have leant on the industry to design a solution that absolutely minimised disruption.

You mean, for some weekends and probably occasional weeks, which is not the same as the "best part" of five years.

And I, as a regular long distance GWR passenger, do not recognise there being no benefit. Access to Heathrow, Crossrail and HS2 are all benefits which a significant proportion of passengers will take advantage of

 

[Sean Emmett]

I remember catching a FGW HST from Waterloo non-stop to Reading about 20 years ago during a blockade -- pretty sure it went via. Ascot / Wokingham etc. on the SWT route and on to Reading, but happy to be corrected! Fully appreciate that HSTs and IETs are completely differerent beasts, of course.

IIRC an IET has reached Ascot, from Reading, but no further.

Clearance of the route to Waterloo was in the IET spec, but seems to have been forgotten.

 

[Envoy]

Nobody is going to travel from places west of Reading to access HS2. They will just go directly to Birmingham and beyond.

 

[stuu]

Nobody is going to travel from places west of Reading to access HS2. They will just go directly to Birmingham and beyond.

A direct train from my house (Taunton) to Manchester takes 3h 50m. Via OOC it will be about 2.5 hours of travel, plus changing. So an hour quicker than the direct service which only runs a couple of times a day, and much quicker than anything involving changing in Birmingham.

It will entirely depend on pricing as to which is the sensible route to take

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The HS2 web site has a section for Old Oak Common, and mentions the work on the GW station.
For 2022-23 it simply says (see location 4 on page 8 of the linked document):

- piling in the Great Western Main Line station
- Great Western Main Line platform construction

The forward view listings are updated every 3 months and the winter one is due soon.

https://assets.hs2.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Autumn-2022-Construction-look-ahead-Old-Oak-and-North-Acton-final.pdf

Building 4 island platforms, each with 2 faces, can't be done without significant disruption.
Some of this development will be north of the current 4-track GWML layout, but all four running lines will have to be remodelled over a considerable distance.

 

[The Planner]

That might only mean bank holiday weekends, not necessarily week long blockades.

Yes, it does mean blockades.

I would expect it to look somewhat similar to the Euston rebuild: whole-station closures limited to 9-day blockades around major holidays, with the odd weekend all-line block as well but some form of limited access maintained through the week. Euston is probably less disruptive, Paddington may well see long periods of 2-track working. It's vaguely possible the connection out of the back of North Pole depot to the WLL could be used to get trains out.

Try and spread capacity between Waterloo (Reading/Salisbury), Marylebone (Oxford/Banbury) and Euston (via Birmingham), diverting passengers more than trains. Also presumably Ealing Broadway forms part of the plans, with the district line.

Pretty much, blocks will be Xmas to New Year for a number of years.

Isn't it great that GWR was ripped apart for best part of five years to get it electrified and now it has to suffer the same fate again for no benefit to its passengers. DfT should have leant on the industry to design a solution that absolutely minimised disruption.

And this is what the solution is. Either that or just shut it for multiple weekends over a number of years. It also disrupts the ability for other NR regions to do work as they have to stay clear of it.

 

[Falcon1200]

It does seem interesting that they decided upon trying to create a ‘mega hub’, yet are giving it no direct access to a tube or overground line.

Elizabeth Line? Direct and fast trains to and from Central London (with multiple Underground Line connections) and beyond?

Connecting from the west via Paddington and Euston has worked since the railways began.

No it has not, travelling between Paddington and Euston has been a pain in the butt since railways began, and it is worse now than ever with the only through Underground trains using extremely poorly located platforms at Paddingon.

Nobody is going to travel from places west of Reading to access HS2.

Yes they will, I will be travelling between Oxford and Glasgow via OOC and HS2, one day.....

 

[Snow1964]

In reality they are fairly limited in alternatives if keep to current infrastructure, although if need 5 years of closures, something long temporary temporary might be justified.

Examples (speculative, not definite) :
Extra or longer platform at Slough (allowing terminating on Brentford branch tracks, with connections to local & Elizabeth line trains)

Restoring a single track reversible spur at south curve of Virginia Water to allow trains to access Waterloo (without using restricted route via Staines).

Laying in a scissor crossover just west of Ealing so can terminate and reverse trains in either fast line platform. (connections to District, Central, Elizabeth line)

Reconfigure trains east of Swindon to operate as 9+5car IET or 16car 387s so there are fewer trains, but keep capacity (I know these are too long for some platforms, but with some then no needed, might work)

 

[Benjwri]

Elizabeth Line? Direct and fast trains to and from Central London (with multiple Underground Line connections) and beyond?

To East London yes, but to a lot of London it will still be quicker to travel into Paddington and take the Bakerloo Line or Circle. OOC will have no direct access to a tube line, and no interchange with lines going North or South, just one line going East and West. It’s undeniable that is worse connectivity than most other London Terminals.

No it has not, travelling between Paddington and Euston has been a pain in the butt since railways began, and it is worse now than ever with the only through Underground trains using extremely poorly located platforms at Paddingon.

I travelled from Paddington to Euston during rush hour in the heat wave. I would hardly call it terrible. It may just be it was better than the terrible interchanges we see outside of London, but the interchange is on a sub surface tube line using the newest tube trains on the network.

Yes they will, I will be travelling between Oxford and Glasgow via OOC and HS2, one day.....

Maybe in terms of time it will be a bit quicker, but we don’t know what Cross Country will look like in the future or how interchanges will fare between GWR and HS2. But travelling via HS2 on such a route will undoubtedly be prohibitively expensive. Even now a return on the route is £100 more to go via London over via York, and £200 more than the cheapest option via Banbury. Presuming tickets for HS2 follow the example of HS1, that gap is only going to get bigger. It’s not going to be financially viable to travel via OOC from very far west.

 

[The exile]

Nobody is going to travel from places west of Reading to access HS2. They will just go directly to Birmingham and beyond.

How do you get “directly” from (say) Newbury to Birmingham by train?

 

[Falcon1200]

It’s undeniable that is worse connectivity than most other London Terminals.

Paddington itself had worse connectivity than most other London Terminals, with just the Bakerloo and Circle/H&C Lines, with eastbound trains from the most conveniently located Underground station at Paddington only going to Edgware Road! Crossrail has thankfully, finally improved things, to the point where I now use it even where an alternative Underground route is available.

I travelled from Paddington to Euston during rush hour in the heat wave. I would hardly call it terrible. I

Except that there are no direct trains between Paddington and Euston; Either a walk from Euston Square, involving crossing roads and braving the weather, or an inconvenient change at Oxford Circus, are required.

 

[Mordac]

Paddington itself had worse connectivity than most other London Terminals, with just the Bakerloo and Circle/H&C Lines, with eastbound trains from the most conveniently located Underground station at Paddington only going to Edgware Road! Crossrail has thankfully, finally improved things, to the point where I now use it even where an alternative Underground route is available.



Except that there are no direct trains between Paddington and Euston; Either a walk from Euston Square, involving crossing roads and braving the weather, or an inconvenient change at Oxford Circus, are required.

As part os the HS2 remodelling, they'll build a direct connection between Euston and Euston Square. You also don't need to cross the road even now, there's an entrance on the North side of Euston Road (albeit not step free).

 

[Ashley Hill]

If OOC is to become a major rail hub and all GW trains stop there could this become a future threat to Paddington itself?

 

[Benjwri]

If OOC is to become a major rail hub and all GW trains stop there could this become a future threat to Paddington itself?

All trains to Paddington will stop at OOC, including Heathrow Express and any future operators, the DfT response to the Grand Union consultation said there will not be the capacity for any services to run non stop through the station.