Guards duties when departing stations

[brick60000]

Hello all,

Something I've frequently wondered as there appears to be very little standard practice for the matter. When a train with a guard/train manager who is responsible for the dispatch of the train is leaving a station, what should they be doing?

Is it rule book that they should be observing the platform train interface as they leave the station, is it down to company policy, or do they not have to?

Kind regards,

Brick60000

 

[TEW]

It is something that changes from time to time. At present, the guard is required to observe the platform as the train departs. They must do this from a location where they can stop the train in an emergency, as defined in the TOCs own policies. Until this December they were required to observe the platform from the local door at which they dispatched the train, but it is now potentially permissible to move to another location for a better view. I'm not aware yet how TOCs have implemented this change in practice.

 

[MG11]

I have often wondered about this. Some TMs have been known to make announcements the very second the train begins moving. Others wait until the train has left the platform. I guess it isn't dissimilar to the debate around mobile phones on the roads. Can a TM be paying full attention to the safe despatch whilst trying to remember calling patterns, coach formations, safety messages etc?

 

[tsr]

Routine announcements take little concentration for an experienced guard as they will be based on ingrained route knowledge and professional awareness of the service being operated. (It is perfectly possible that the guard could need to talk to the driver during dispatch as well.) Provided a good standard of observation is maintained, and you can reach the controls to stop the train, there’s certainly nothing in the national RSSB Rule Book to stop you doing it. On most trains where this is done, the dispatch duties will have been done from a steward’s panel where the door controls and PA handset are all in one place. When dispatching from the cab, many train cab designs would need you to use a droplight to observe the train (thus no announcements when you have your head out of the window!) or else you would not be able to observe the train, use the PA and be ready to stop the service from the same location.

Electronic communications which are nothing to do with the service are obviously forbidden, such as texting your mates. It’s also not a good idea to announce anything complex, such as relating to disruption or delays, as that often requires more mental capacity.

 

[pt_mad]

Routine announcements take little concentration for an experienced guard as they will be based on ingrained route knowledge and professional awareness of the service being operated. (It is perfectly possible that the guard could need to talk to the driver during dispatch as well.) Provided a good standard of observation is maintained, and you can reach the controls to stop the train, there’s certainly nothing in the national RSSB Rule Book to stop you doing it. On most trains where this is done, the dispatch duties will have been done from a steward’s panel where the door controls and PA handset are all in one place. When dispatching from the cab, many train cab designs would need you to use a droplight to observe the train (thus no announcements when you have your head out of the window!) or else you would not be able to observe the train, use the PA and be ready to stop the service from the same location.

Electronic communications which are nothing to do with the service are obviously forbidden, such as texting your mates. It’s also not a good idea to announce anything complex, such as relating to disruption or delays, as that often requires more mental capacity.

Head out of a window? Is this allowed?

 

[TEW]

Of course it is. It's the best method of observing the platform as the train departs.

 

[221129]

Head out of a window? Is this allowed?

Obviously.

 

[MG11]

Head out of a window? Is this allowed?

Interestingly, one TOC actually 'liked' a picture of a window hanging crank on Twitter the other day.

 

[pt_mad]

Of course it is. It's the best method of observing the platform as the train departs.

Ah didn't realise. I always thought it might be the case that they can stand inside a dropped window, but shouldn't hang a head out when the train is moving? Only an assumption no reason in particular why.


It does open the question though as to why all TOCs don't just recommend dispatch from a dropped window though rather than a vestibule door as surely having a head out of a window is going to be twice as safe as behind a sealed door if someone was to attempt to board the train as it was departing?

Do the train crew instructions actually say it is advisable to point your head out of the drop window to observe the platform as the train is departing?

 

[pompeyfan]

I believe this latest change would be useful in the case of 158s so that you can look out the rest cab if you prefer, interestingly the whole James St incident may have been different had this current wording been in the rule book.

I’m led to believe various managers regard announcements as a pet hate when the train is leaving, especially if the guard is glancing at a diagram or similar but in the eyes of the rule book they’ve not done anything particularly wrong. Any revenue activities are a big no no as well during departure.

 

[brick60000]

Thanks all for the replies so far. Interesting to hear it is required by the rule book. The reason I asked was that on one line I frequently travel on, several guards have sat down in the cab seat and are looking out the back window by the time the train has begun to move. In fact, one guard seems to close the doors from the cab, with the cab door shut and without looking out...

Without revealing locations etc. for obvious reasons, is this something that should be reported quietly to TOCs so that it can be investigated? It does strike me as a safety issue!

 

[pompeyfan]

Tricky one to call, some on here may say it’s ‘a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous’ but at the same time taking what you’ve said as gospel their manager wouldn’t be impressed. Only you can decide if you want to be part of potentially ending someone’s career (worst case scenario).

 

[MG11]

Ah didn't realise. I always thought it might be the case that they can stand inside a dropped window, but shouldn't hang a head out when the train is moving? Only an assumption no reason in particular why.


It does open the question though as to why all TOCs don't just recommend dispatch from a dropped window though rather than a vestibule door as surely having a head out of a window is going to be twice as safe as behind a sealed door if someone was to attempt to board the train as it was departing?

Do the train crew instructions actually say it is advisable to point your head out of the drop window to observe the platform as the train is departing?

Most modern units are fully-sealed and don't have droplights.

 

[GW43125]

Most modern units are fully-sealed and don't have droplights.

All driving cabs have droplights (or some form of opening window)

 

[Bromley boy]

Most modern units are fully-sealed and don't have droplights.

They do in the cabs. The problem with using these is that the guard is required to make his way to a back or intermediate cab every time he needs to dispatch.

 

[MG11]

They do in the cabs. The problem with using these is that the guard is required to make his way to a back or intermediate cab every time he needs to dispatch.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Desiros. I was mainly thinking of Voyagers and Meridians, oops!

 

[MG11]

All driving cabs have droplights (or some form of opening window)

Voyagers...Meridians?

 

[brick60000]

Tricky one to call, some on here may say it’s ‘a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous’ but at the same time taking what you’ve said as gospel their manager wouldn’t be impressed. Only you can decide if you want to be part of potentially ending someone’s career (worst case scenario).

Quite. It's not a good thing to see when you're aware of the dangers that can result. It's rather tricky on the conscience. Cause someone to lose their job (worst case) or not say anything and see the practice continue, leading to a trap and drag (worst case). Not an easy call!

As matter of interest, do companies routinely undertake their own 'under cover' tests of train crew or is that deemed too 'big brother'?

 

[Harbouring]

I have seen guards leave the window as soon as the service departs but only on services late at night at rural stations where I presume the guard has seen that no one is around.

 

[Bromley boy]

Thanks all for the replies so far. Interesting to hear it is required by the rule book. The reason I asked was that on one line I frequently travel on, several guards have sat down in the cab seat and are looking out the back window by the time the train has begun to move. In fact, one guard seems to close the doors from the cab, with the cab door shut and without looking out...

Without revealing locations etc. for obvious reasons, is this something that should be reported quietly to TOCs so that it can be investigated? It does strike me as a safety issue!

If someone is doing something unsafe then it should be reported. However I’d caution against reporting someone unless you *know* what they are doing is wrong, in order to save potentially unecessary unpleasantness for the individual concerned.

There are lots of differences in procedures between TOCs and even within one TOC between dispatch locations. For example at my TOC guards travel in the back cab and do not dispatch in the DOO part of the network. A passenger (or even a member of staff from another TOC) might well see the train depart with the guard sat in the back cab reading the paper, not realising the driver might be dispatching in that location (or bat and flag, CD/RA etc).

It’s also possible that the guard you are watching may be travelling “pass” (ie on the cushions) with the actual guard dispatching the train located in a different part of the train.

 

[SPADTrap]

All driving cabs have droplights (or some form of opening window)

Neither of my tractions do.

 

[Bromley boy]

Voyagers...Meridians?

Neither of my tractions do.

I assume this is the case for traction capable above >100mph because the slipstream would be too noisy to open a window?!

Even the 700s have a small drop light, although too far from the driver’s seat to be of much use (of course these have onboard monitors and are intended for DOO operation).

 

[BestWestern]

I assume this is the case for traction capable above >100mph because the slipstream would be too noisy to open a window?!

Even the 700s have a small drop light, although too far from the driver’s seat to be of much use (of course these have onboard monitors and are intended for DOO operation).

125mph 180s have opening cabside windows. 800s and Voyagers don't. It's just a design issue I guess.

 

[BestWestern]

As matter of interest, do companies routinely undertake their own 'under cover' tests of train crew or is that deemed too 'big brother'?

They certainly do. Guards & dispatchers will be periodically 'observed', i.e. discreetly watched routinely carrying out their duties, as part of their ongoing competence assessments. Drivers tend to be done via a 'black box' download.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

At Northern we are required to stand by our local door until the end of the platform (including unused portions, shortened platforms etc.) A Droplight on our 323's and 150/1 sets comes in handy for better views. If a guard is seen leaving their local door before the end of the platform its a word from their CTM. People have been moved to other roles (none safety critical) due to their failure to be able to observe the pti correctly.

 

[ComUtoR]

Thanks all for the replies so far. Interesting to hear it is required by the rule book. The reason I asked was that on one line I frequently travel on, several guards have sat down in the cab seat and are looking out the back window by the time the train has begun to move. In fact, one guard seems to close the doors from the cab, with the cab door shut and without looking out...

If they are looking out the rear window. That could be considered to be watching the train depart the platform and ensuring the platform is clear after they have departed. It is intended to be open ended so that each TOC can set their own individual requirements as dictated by traction etc. The rule book doesn't state that it must be a side window or that they must stick their head out etc.

Without revealing locations etc. for obvious reasons, is this something that should be reported quietly to TOCs so that it can be investigated? It does strike me as a safety issue!

If you are going to report a safety issue based on very little evidence and from a couple of forum posts that say a requirement to check the platform and then making a rather huge leap to suggest there is a safety issue then I suggest otherwise. Locations, Traction etc are important as it provides information so that people can give you a more informed response. Based on 'looking out the back window' is circumstantial at best and, for me, doesn't show anything. 'Several guards' doesn't seem plausible and again, to me, suggests that it is deliberate. Several Guards making the same mistake ? Also 'seems' to be doesn't suggest that they 'are'

Tricky one to call, some on here may say it’s ‘a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous’

Very tricky to call and something that requires much more information to suggest a safety issue.

 

[driver9000]

Train dispatch and station duties are detailed in Rule book SS1 and augmented by individual train company instructions.

 

[driver9000]

As matter of interest, do companies routinely undertake their own 'under cover' tests of train crew or is that deemed too 'big brother'?

Yes they do. Unobtrusive monitoring to give it its polite name is part and parcel of train crew life.

 

[sarahj]

Also depends on where you are. When I'm in the back cab of a 313 leaving Brighton, I'm mainly looking at the platform dispatcher who have a better view of the platform than me looking through a window. They are supposed to watch until the train has cleared the platform, and some have been removed from duties for raising the bat, then turning away. But yes, as a guard you must watch the platform until you have fully cleared. You do spot things, and I have stopped a train a couple of times. Sometimes you get punters asking you questions, or trying to buy a ticket, but a quick..'just one moment please' normally suffices, though you get the odd one or two who think you are being rude.
When in OBS mode, you have no control over dispatch, signals are just pretty colours, and you find some will turn their back to the window as the train moves off. After years of working one way, and to suddenly work another, esp as on one train I'm a guard, the next an OBS, it's bloody hard. I know of one OBS who got involved in a dispatch incident and is now having stuff dropped on them from a height.

 

[sarahj]

Yes they do. Unobtrusive monitoring to give it its polite name is part and parcel of train crew life.

Yep, your checking a train and come across a manager a few coaches down. Next day you get a letter telling you their view of your whole performance. You also get them hanging round stations to see where you are dispatching from and did you get out of a train and stand fully on the platform. And then there is the train ride, where they stick with you and also ask questions on rules and stations and such. Getting a question wrong is a bit . When did it change to 'Emergency Switch Off'? Doh!!!! (a couple of years back I sad 'current isolation')