Guard unhappy with my Off Peak ticket

[Spongthrush]

Ticket was Chandlers Ford - Swindon via Melksham, return. I bought via Uber App, putting in 0755 from CFR. £30.50, but I used a Senior Railcard, so £20.15.

The guard on Chandlers Ford-Romsey leg was quite animated when he inspected my ticket, acting like he'd won the lottery. 'This is an Off Peak ticket and it's not valid...' He offered me to buy a full fare ticket to Romsey but I stood my ground, showed him the 'i' bit of the e-ticket which showed that I'd booked choosing the 0755 so it's not my fault that my ticket, clearly labelled 'Off Peak' wasn't valid.

Thankfully, the journey is only 8 mins and we arrived at Romsey before he could extract ££ from me or fine me.

I went to the ticket office at Romsey to ask what I'd done wrong, but after a few minutes I was told 'no idea, it's all so complex these days' and not to worry as my next train 0825 to Westbury was definitely off-peak.

Can anyone enlighten me? National Rail journey planner comes up with the same fare, so I don't get what the issue is. I assume that as I put my Senior Railcard in the booking that it can't be anything to do with that (times allowed?), or is it?

thanks!

 

[CyrusWuff]

The restriction code for that ticket is Q8, which has no explicit restriction listed for Chandlers Ford, just for Romsey.

Relevant text:

Off-Peak tickets from stations not listed are valid for connections into trains departing as shown above.

 

[RedPostJunc]

Ticket was Chandlers Ford - Swindon via Melksham, return. I bought via Uber App, putting in 0755 from CFR. £30.50, but I used a Senior Railcard, so £20.15.

The guard on Chandlers Ford-Romsey leg was quite animated when he inspected my ticket, acting like he'd won the lottery. 'This is an Off Peak ticket and it's not valid...' He offered me to buy a full fare ticket to Romsey but I stood my ground, showed him the 'i' bit of the e-ticket which showed that I'd booked choosing the 0755 so it's not my fault that my ticket, clearly labelled 'Off Peak' wasn't valid.

Thankfully, the journey is only 8 mins and we arrived at Romsey before he could extract ££ from me or fine me.

I went to the ticket office at Romsey to ask what I'd done wrong, but after a few minutes I was told 'no idea, it's all so complex these days' and not to worry as my next train 0825 to Westbury was definitely off-peak.

Can anyone enlighten me? National Rail journey planner comes up with the same fare, so I don't get what the issue is. I assume that as I put my Senior Railcard in the booking that it can't be anything to do with that (times allowed?), or is it?

thanks!

Which day of the week was this?
There are early morning time restrictions on a Senior Railcard Monday - Friday.

 

[Haywain]

Which day of the week was this?
There are early morning time restrictions on a Senior Railcard Monday - Friday.

Not for a ticket that has an origin or destination outside of the Network Railcard area, such as Swindon.

 

[Pompey00]

Did they scan it on their work phone or just used there eyes? As they use TTK and normally tells them whether it’s valid or not.

 

[Spongthrush]

Hi, it was Friday. Guard scanned with his phone type thing began to walk off then turned round and began the ‘chat’.

It wasn’t really embarrassing as such, provided some entertainment for the other pax. More that I spend so much time telling my kids that they must travel on Booked advance fare train etc or get fined > poss criminal record that they would have collapsed laughing if it happened to me.

Luckily I stood my ground rather than cave and pay the requested £5.50 but if the rules are as nuanced as stated above, thanks by the way, no wonder he or the ticket office could explain….

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2024 ==

Which day of the week was this?
There are early morning time restrictions on a Senior Railcard Monday - Friday.

Yes but I assume that the booking engines won’t show fares for the selected service if i select 0755 train and senior railcard? It’s not like I selected 0955 and travelled earlier.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Can anyone enlighten me? National Rail journey planner comes up with the same fare, so I don't get what the issue is.

There isn't one.

As the restriction code posted by @CyrusWuff states, that ticket is valid from Chandlers Ford to connect into trains departing after 0820 from Romsey. Your connecting train was 0825.

Sounds like yet another guard who's got into the mindset that no off-peak ticket is valid before a certain time.

 

[Belperpete]

Sounds like yet another guard who's got into the mindset that no off-peak ticket is valid before a certain time.

Unfortunately this does seem to be fairly common. While it is probably true for the majority of tickets they encounter, as Haywain stated some of these time restrictions do not apply for longer distance journeys starting or ending outside the Network Railcard area.

In this case, you were on firm ground as you were travelling on the train you had booked for. One wonders what would have happened if you had booked for a later train, and then decided to travel earlier.

 

[gray1404]

I think you should report this matter to the train company running the service. Not every customer would be as sure their ticket is valid or be able to assert themselves like you.

 

[Haywain]

I can see where there would be room for confusion with this restriction code. The wording of the code, "trains timed to depart" is generally taken to mean that the train is restricted regardless of where you join it, and there can be no doubt that the train the OP boarded at Chandler's Ford was timed to depart from one of the listed stations at a restricted time:

Not valid for travel on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before the times shown from the following stations:

• 08:50 from Southampton Central

However, there is a conflict between the restrictions intended to be read by humans and the electronic, and unpublished, restrictions which allowed the ticket to be sold. Therefore the fact that it was sold in conjunction with an itinerary means that it is unquestionably valid.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I think you should report this matter to the train company running the service. Not every customer would be as sure their ticket is valid or be able to assert themselves like you.

Unless an additional fare was charged, it would probably be unwise to draw any further attention to this particular ticket.

 

[gray1404]

Unless an additional fare was charged, it would probably be unwise to draw any further attention to this particular ticket.

What you have just said there was an immediate after thought of mine actually as soon as I had posted just now.

My other concern is that if an additional fare had been payable then it would only be an excess rather than a new tickets so the guard really does need some further training.

However I do agree totally sometimes it is best to choose your battles and perhaps this is one of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless an additional fare was charged, it would probably be unwise to draw any further attention to this particular ticket.

Why, when the ticket was unquestionably valid as per the contract made when it was purchased?

If the TOC was stupid enough to go as far as prosecution the OP has an absolute defence in the form of the itinerary against which it was purchased.

Unless the OP was specifically asked for name and address and declined to give them they haven't committed an offence. Refusing to pay an excess fare that isn't due isn't an offence, the fare has to be due for it to constitute one.

I'd probably not report it, but only because I wouldn't expect anything to be done about it because of the lack of management competence that pervades basically the entire railway.

 

[Haywain]

My other concern is that if an additional fare had been payable then it would only be an excess rather than a new tickets so the guard really does need some further training.

It appears that the opportunity to buy an unrestricted ticket to Romsey was offered, which was the correct option as it is cheaper than the excess fare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2024 ==

Why, when the ticket was unquestionably valid as per the contract made when it was purchased?

Because the result might be a change removing that validity, by changing the data that allowed it to be sold?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because the result might be a change removing that validity, by changing the data that allowed it to be sold?

Fair point. Though to be fair if the TOC wants to do that this post will have alerted them to its existence.

 

[Benjwri]

Fair point. Though to be fair if the TOC wants to do that this post will have alerted them to its existence.

Yes and in this case as mentioned the restriction code does likely already invalidate the train, so it would just be a case of adding some more electronic restrictions.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yes and in this case as mentioned the restriction code does likely already invalidate the train

It's fair to say the restriction, at least the human-readable version, is very badly written.

Whilst "not valid on trains timed to depart" usually means the train for the entirety of its journey, in this case the restrictions appear to be intended to apply for departures from a specific station.

The train the OP was connecting into appears to be running today as the 0721 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central:



The restriction is as follows:

Not valid for travel on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before the times shown from the following stations:
08:10 from Portsmouth Harbour
08:15 from Portsmouth & Southsea
08:20 from Fratton
08:35 from Fareham
08:50 from Southampton Central
08:20 from Romsey
08:50 from Salisbury
08:50 from Westbury
08:50 from Warminster
08:40 from Trowbridge
08:35 from Bradford-on-Avon
08:30 from Bath Spa
08:00 from Filton Abbey Wood

The train the OP was connecting into was timed to depart from all of the above stations.

So which restriction do you pick? It's timed to depart Romsey after 0820. But it's also timed to depart Salisbury- later down the line- before 0850. This implies to me that the restriction isn't intended to apply to the train.

The restriction also includes the following:

Off-Peak tickets from stations not listed are valid for connections into trains departing as shown above.

Chandlers Ford is not listed, and it is a ticket from a station not listed connecting into a train as above, therefore the wording of the restriction is such that it is valid to connect into today's 0821 from Romsey.

 

[Haywain]

This implies to me that the restriction isn't intended to apply to the train.

It suggests to me that it's a cock-up. I struggle to believe that the restriction is intended to apply to every station except Romsey. However, the OP was challeneged on the validity of the ticket on the train from Chandler's Ford to Romsey.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It suggests to me that it's a cock-up. I struggle to believe that the restriction is intended to apply to every station except Romsey.

It isn't- north of Salisbury it would become valid again. The train is also timed to depart Warminster, Westbury and Trowbridge (where the OP changed for Swindon) after the restrictions end.

There's no way this restriction is intended to apply to specific trains throughout.

It might be an error that Romsey's restriction is a little bit earlier than all the other stations around it, although probably not- I suspect whoever wrote the restriction really had London and Bristol in mind when setting the times.

However, the OP was challeneged on the validity of the ticket on the train from Chandler's Ford to Romsey.

I know- and the restriction is that tickets from stations not listed are valid to connect into trains as mentioned in the restrictions list. Chandlers Ford isn't listed and the connecting train complies with the restriction, therefore the ticket is valid.

In fairness to the guard, I can see why he would have a different view.

 

[Haywain]

It isn't- north of Salisbury it would become valid again.

OK, since you've decided to be pedantic, it applies to very station from Salisbury southwards except Romsey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2024 ==

the connecting train complies with the restriction, therefore the ticket is valid.

It doesn't, because it is timed to depart from both Southampton Central and St Denys at a restricted time.

 

[Tetchytyke]

OK, since you've decided to be pedantic, it applies to very station from Salisbury southwards except Romsey.

I'm not being pedantic. The restriction can't be said to apply to the train for its entire duration where it is timed to depart from some stations at a restricted time and from others at an unrestricted time. I think it's meant to apply to the station, not the train.

Romsey's restriction being earlier would make sense if you had London Waterloo in mind when setting the restriction. It allows Romsey passengers to depart a little earlier to connect into the first unrestricted trains from Salisbury or Southampton.

It doesn't, because it is timed to depart from both Southampton Central and St Denys at a restricted time.

The other part of the restriction is as follows:

Off-Peak tickets from stations not listed are valid for connections into trains departing as shown above.

It is an off-peak ticket. It is from a station not listed. It is for a connecting train which is departing as per the restrictions.

I don't see how one can read the restriction in its entirety in any other way as allowing travel on the connecting train from Chandlers Ford to Romsey.

ETA: However the fact we're arguing about it shows that the restriction is rather badly written and I do have sympathy for a guard in this situation.

 

[Spongthrush]

I do the trip every year (Fairford airshow); previously I’ve had to buy a separate ticket CFR to ROM and then I thought an Advance but maybe just Off Peak ticket from ROM to SWI. So I was surprised that I could get a decent through fare.

 

[redreni]

I think it's meant to apply to the station, not the train.

If so, it would be much easier if it were expressed as a boarding restriction e.g. "not valid to board at the following stations after 04:29 and before the time indicated".

ETA: However the fact we're arguing about it shows that the restriction is rather badly written and I do have sympathy for a guard in this situation.

Amen to that.

 

[talldave]

These "timed to depart" restrictions also become confusing if a train is running late (so departing after the time stated). A train could be an hour later, but still not allow off-peak ticket travel. Why use "timed to depart" rather than "departing"?

 

[AlterEgo]

These "timed to depart" restrictions also become confusing if a train is running late (so departing after the time stated). A train could be an hour later, but still not allow off-peak ticket travel. Why use "timed to depart" rather than "departing"?

For the reason you state - to be absolutely clear the restriction applies to the (presumably in-demand) train.

 

[Krokodil]

That's a hideously complicated restriction code. I agree with the booking office clerk

 

[redreni]

These "timed to depart" restrictions also become confusing if a train is running late (so departing after the time stated). A train could be an hour later, but still not allow off-peak ticket travel. Why use "timed to depart" rather than "departing"?

For the reason you state - to be absolutely clear the restriction applies to the (presumably in-demand) train.

If the pricing TOC feels really strongly about this then they could say "not valid to board, at the following stations, trains timed to depart that station after 04:29 and before the time shown" (followed by the list of stations and times).

Makes it a tad more complicated, but still comprehensible and much less ambiguous than what's in place at the moment.

If redrafted to remove the ambiguity it would actually be a fairly clear restriction from the passenger's point of view, since they would know where they intend to board the train so can easily see when the peak restrictions apply to boarding at that station. It's probably more counterintuitive from the point of view of a guard on a train where off-peak tickets with this restriction code are valid if held by passengers boarding at some stations but not others. It would be more usual, restriction codes being equal, for the guard to know either that off-peak tickets are not valid on this train at all, or that they're only valid after a particular station.

 

[smsm1]

Peak tickets need to go in the bin. They waste so much time and cause so much confusion. Life has been way better and simpler since the scraping of peak fares up here in Scotland. (Ok I'm hoping the trial goes permanent).

 

[TUC]

Peak tickets need to go in the bin. They waste so much time and cause so much confusion. Life has been way better and simpler since the scraping of peak fares up here in Scotland. (Ok I'm hoping the trial goes permanent).

On the basis of that argument, your logic means that you could equally be arguing for off-peak tickets to go because they cause so much confusion.

 

[smsm1]

On the basis of that argument, your logic means that you could equally be arguing for off-peak tickets to go because they cause so much confusion.

True, though the aim is to also lower the cost of peak fares in the process.