Guard operation of doors

[Mojo]

On an overcrowded East Coast service a few weeks ago, the staff were trying to make up time by shortening station stops - this left some passengers only getting off as the door alarms started to sound. (The staff were probably too busy complaining over the PA about passengers "obstructing the gangways", as if passengers were standing out of choice).

I have seen train doors close on passengers both on trains with driver and guard operated doors.

 

[BestWestern]

It can be a tricky call sometimes, as your view from the platform doesn't allow you to have much of an idea of who or what is lurking just inside the doors. Often you think everyone is clear, no movement for a good few seconds so you hit the buttons, and then an arm or a bag or a pushbike appears and it's a case of swiftly re-releasing them! Nobody's fault really, you just have to be vigilant for those who may take a bit longer to alight. But having said that, to be taking the mickey and shutting them almost as soon as you've released them is inconsiderate, dangerous and downright stupid, delayed or not. Particularly on an intercity where people have lots of luggage etc. If a complaint or a claim comes in the evidence is all there on the download.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I wouldn't argue with a Desiro's doors

I beg to differer, the Class 450 and 444 Desiros doors are both quite easy to hold open, even with your foot! Mind you, not as bad as class 455 which a little kid could hold open!

 

[BestWestern]

I beg to differer, the Class 450 and 444 Desiros doors are both quite easy to hold open, even with your foot! Mind you, not as bad as class 455 which a little kid could hold open!

Do the Desiro doors reopen if they sense an obstruction? Same sort of thing you see on lifts I always thought? 455 doors sound similarly flimsy to 150 doors then, which would be logical I guess. Do they also rattle violently with passing trains or at speeds over about 40mph?! I recall a former London Guard telling me a while back how the doors on 456 units had no brake interlock and could be opened while on the move, I presume that has been modified by now?

 

[Urban Gateline]

Do the Desiro doors reopen if they sense an obstruction? Same sort of thing you see on lifts I always thought? 455 doors sound similarly flimsy to 150 doors then, which would be logical I guess. Do they also rattle violently with passing trains or at speeds over about 40mph?! I recall a former London Guard telling me a while back how the doors on 456 units had no brake interlock and could be opened while on the move, I presume that has been modified by now?

Yes the Desiro doors have motion sensors, so when the train is just waiting at a station the doors auto-close every 15 seconds, but if someone tries to board then they will sense that person and stop closing (this is all when the doors are fully released) When the doors are locked by the guard then the motion sensor doesn't work of course.

Yes, I think the 455/150 both probably have flimsy doors as they are mostly used on Suburban routes where the speed isn't too high, they do rattle a little but not much, it is mainly the open windows which shut as trains pass!
Regarding your last point, I have never tried (and probably wouldnt!) but I don't think you can open the doors while the train is moving, don't quote me on this though!

 

[313103]

The rule of standing by the door until train has left the platform was as someone stated removed from the rulebook i belived 18 months ago. At the time we only operated class 150 and 313 units. The company then applied it as a local instruction.

Since then the new class 172 and class 378s have entered into service. The application of this rule can only really apply now if the Guard is working from the rear cab. If a Guard is operating from within the train at one of the panels it is very difficult to look out the window as the train moves along to the windows being narrow, the light inside makes it difficult to see clearly anyway. In the cabs both have droplight windows so that you can look out of the window whilst the train is moving.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Do the Desiro doors reopen if they sense an obstruction? Same sort of thing you see on lifts I always thought? 455 doors sound similarly flimsy to 150 doors then, which would be logical I guess. Do they also rattle violently with passing trains or at speeds over about 40mph?! I recall a former London Guard telling me a while back how the doors on 456 units had no brake interlock and could be opened while on the move, I presume that has been modified by now?

Desiro doors will reopen if there is an obstruction, 455 doors are not so resistant although the SWT units had some work done on the doors during the refurbishment 4-5 years ago.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

even though I feel the local instruction is pointless, I ALWAYS stand by the local door until the end of the platform (even if i'm operating the doors from the middle on a 323),2 simple reasons, as said previously it is a local instruction and secondly the old adage "better safe than sorry" after all you are only talking about 10 seconds max that will hardly dent anyones commision, if people get caught (like has happened a few times at depots) not doing door operations correctly its their own fault, its hardly rocket science to follow the rules. I would rather spend 10 seconds or so at my local door than waiting 20 minutes in the dole queue!

 

[Helvellyn]

Correct, I am still in training but we had a whole day of sitting on a Desiro in Clapham yard yesterday practising door operations and it was pointed out that the rule book did indeed recently change to reflect the fact that as slam doors are almost entirely gone from the network there is no longer a requirement to monitor the platform as you depart.

Well some TOCs seem to have kept it as a local instruction, but SWT haven't. On a 12-car 450, if you're looking through the glass window one one set of doors you can't see the other 23 (and of them only one other set is in the same coach).

The rule for observing the train leaving the platform was mainly there for slam door stock (and before central door locking) when someone could open a door with the train on the move.

If - God forbid - someone were trapped in the door of my train then I wouldn't be investigated for not standing by a double glazed window when the train left the platform. I'd be investigated for failing to check the doors of my train were properly closed and free of obstruction before I closed my local door and gave the Driver the tip. That's why using the CCTV assisted dispatch equipment that SWT have brought in at a number of locations is so important - it's there for me to see the extreme ends of my 12-car train to make sure the doors are clear when I close them, and that there is nothing stuck in them. Now I've got used to this I find the equipment really useful.

(Incidentially, on power door stock at night you can hardly see anything through the door window anyway due to the reflected glare of the internal lights - so even less point standing by the local door.)

 

[ChrisCooper]

With power door stock, beyond someone falling between the platform and the train there is very little that should change between the guard closing their door and the train leaving the platform anyway, as the doors are locked shut. If someone did happen to fall (which is fairly unlikely anyway) the chances are it would not make a difference if the train stopped or carried on, they would either already be dead or would by luck be going to survive anyway. I suppose the problem is it's one of those rules that boarders between "better safe than sorry" and pointless, often based on fairly complicated circumstances (length of train, position of guard, night or day etc).

 

[strange6]

With power door stock, beyond someone falling between the platform and the train there is very little that should change between the guard closing their door and the train leaving the platform anyway, as the doors are locked shut. If someone did happen to fall (which is fairly unlikely anyway) the chances are it would not make a difference if the train stopped or carried on, they would either already be dead or would by luck be going to survive anyway. I suppose the problem is it's one of those rules that boarders between "better safe than sorry" and pointless, often based on fairly complicated circumstances (length of train, position of guard, night or day etc).

At the end of the day, I think it's all about the guard observing the platform in case people can see something that he can't and they start waving their hands up in the air shouting at the train to stop. That's the most logical conclusion that I can think of

 

[ChrisCooper]

At the end of the day, I think it's all about the guard observing the platform in case people can see something that he can't and they start waving their hands up in the air shouting at the train to stop. That's the most logical conclusion that I can think of

The problem is though, from a modern, air conditioned, double glazed, power door train, perhaps 12 coaches long, at night, what chance does the guard have of seeing someone waving their hands around and hearing them shouting at the train to stop?

To be honest with health and safety issues like this it's usually best to have a rule one way or the other, either say you have to do something, or you don't. If you have to do something, even if it's pointless, then as long as you do it then you are covered if something goes wrong. If you don't have to do it then you are also covered if something goes wrong. It seems to be mostly like that, TOCs where the guard staying at the door would be almost entirely pointless don't require it, those where it is more likely to be of use do require it.

 

[TEW]

The problem is though, from a modern, air conditioned, double glazed, power door train, perhaps 12 coaches long, at night, what chance does the guard have of seeing someone waving their hands around and hearing them shouting at the train to stop?

If it was the dispatcher trying to stop the train they'd be waving a white or red light around to attract the guards attention at night.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If it was the dispatcher trying to stop the train they'd be waving a white or red light around to attract the guards attention at night.

I would hope they had the facility to wave a red light, otherwise questions need to be asked as to why they are being issued with lamps that do not display red.

 

[BestWestern]

Most dispatchers will use a 'Halo' lamp during darkness, which can display red or green as well as white. A red lamp isn't mandatory to stop a train however, as the rulebook also allows 'any other light waved violently'. But anyway, yes it is largely to do with a dispatcher or other person on the platform waving at you to stop, although of course that isn't applicable at every station. Where a dispatcher is provided they are also required to watch the train clear the platform. Again, you could argue the toss as to whether it is worthwhile, but clearly those who set the rules consider that it is. People do run alongside moving trains at times, and have in the past been killed after slipping down the gap. Only recently I witnessed an HST come to a grinding halt after some plonker on the platform ignored the dispatchers yelling repeatedly to stand clear of the departing train. It does happen, and the quicker it is dealt with the better for all concerned. I have no problem with spending a few moments standing by my doors!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Most dispatchers will use a 'Halo' lamp during darkness, which can display red or green as well as white. A red lamp isn't mandatory to stop a train however, as the rulebook also allows 'any other light waved violently'.

The rule book would allow for that in situations where a red lamp is unavailable. Still, it would be ridiculous if dispatchers were being issued with lamps that do not display red, as TEW was implying.

 

[Galvanize]

One thing that confuses me, with Class 377 units on conductor operated services...
If the conductor is working the train from the rear cab, rather than from inside the passenger saloon, is it true that he cannot actually close the doors? I've often seen the conductor acknowledge the tip, and then go "Bing Bing" to the driver, to tell HIM to close the doors!
Is that another local instruction given to Southern/Southeastern conductors?

 

[TEW]

The rule book would allow for that in situations where a red lamp is unavailable. Still, it would be ridiculous if dispatchers were being issued with lamps that do not display red, as TEW was implying.

I was just saying that a white light could be used as well. Obviously all Barbic and Halo lamps used by dispatchers are capable of displaying a red light, but a white light would convey the same meaning.

 

[Flamingo]

Since Ufton Nervet FGW issue LED torches for all on-train staff to carry on them for emergency use (not to give RA). They are white light, but in an emergency, as said, they can be "waved vigorously" to give a "STOP" to any oncoming train. It makes sense to have it in the rulebook, as if it all goes pear shaped, especially in a tunnel in daylight, it might be all the member of train-crew has to hand.

Question for train crew (and other interested parties). When would you use a Red Flag at night?

 

[strange6]

Since Ufton Nervet FGW issue LED torches for all on-train staff to carry on them for emergency use (not to give RA). They are white light, but in an emergency, as said, they can be "waved vigorously" to give a "STOP" to any oncoming train. It makes sense to have it in the rulebook, as if it all goes pear shaped, especially in a tunnel in daylight, it might be all the member of train-crew has to hand.

Question for train crew (and other interested parties). When would you use a Red Flag at night?

A red flag at night? Who can see a red flag in darkness? lol Red flags normally placed between rails on mechanical failure of train?

 

[CarterUSM]

Since Ufton Nervet FGW issue LED torches for all on-train staff to carry on them for emergency use (not to give RA). They are white light, but in an emergency, as said, they can be "waved vigorously" to give a "STOP" to any oncoming train. It makes sense to have it in the rulebook, as if it all goes pear shaped, especially in a tunnel in daylight, it might be all the member of train-crew has to hand.

Question for train crew (and other interested parties). When would you use a Red Flag at night?

Would a pilotman wear it around his arm?

 

[Flamingo]

Would a pilotman wear it around his arm?

Very good!

Sorry strange, you fell into the trap

 

[strange6]

Very good!

Sorry strange, you fell into the trap

hehehe it did happen though a long time ago I believe!

 

[scotsman]

One thing that confuses me, with Class 377 units on conductor operated services...
If the conductor is working the train from the rear cab, rather than from inside the passenger saloon, is it true that he cannot actually close the doors? I've often seen the conductor acknowledge the tip, and then go "Bing Bing" to the driver, to tell HIM to close the doors!
Is that another local instruction given to Southern/Southeastern conductors?

I doubt it - since 1-2 is to close doors, not 2

 

[CarterUSM]

Very good!

I learned that at training school, but haven't heard it since, hence my cautious answer!

 

[Galvanize]

I doubt it - since 1-2 is to close doors, not 2

Yeah sorry thats what I meant, so "Bing. Bing-Bing" to the driver. But it has puzzled me for quite a while, is there a safety reason as to why the guard can't close the doors from the rear cab on a 377!

 

[BestWestern]

Yeah sorry thats what I meant, so "Bing. Bing-Bing" to the driver. But it has puzzled me for quite a while, is there a safety reason as to why the guard can't close the doors from the rear cab on a 377!

At a guess, this could possibly be because the cab door controls are only available if the driver's desk is keyed in?

 

[Flamingo]

Some units are set up to allow for DOO, and the door controls are in the drivers cab. I believe with 180's that this was the case. The unions do NOT like it, and some types (150's I believe) have been modified to get the controls under the guards control.

As I work HST's this is not to be taken as gospel, I'm sure someone out there can (and will) give a more detailed answer!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The Majority of trains throughout the Network have the Door close buttons in the cab even 142's have the old panels above the side windows in the cab, (all never been used though), for the life of me I will never be able to understand how it is just as safe for a Driver (DOO) to have door controls than a guard, the driver has enough to think about let alone adding door controls to his job, the RMT campaign was simple but to the point, Let the Driver DRIVE and the Guard..GUARD...simples

 

[driver9000]

Some units are set up to allow for DOO, and the door controls are in the drivers cab. I believe with 180's that this was the case. The unions do NOT like it, and some types (150's I believe) have been modified to get the controls under the guards control.

Correct, doors on the 180s were opened by the Driver and there are two sets of door controls in the cab - one set on the desk, the other on the cab bulkhead along with an SDO switch on the desk. The set on the bulkhead is provided to be used so the doors could be released without the master key being on. Within the train the Guards panels are only fitted with door close, local door and bell buttons. When Northern took the 180s into the fleet they were modified so that the cab bulkhead controls were moved to the luggage van/cycle area next to the crew door to give the Guard full control of the doors and the cab controls and SDO were disabled.

As built Pacers and Sprinters were all equipped with door controls in the driving cab to enable DOO working but these have never been used and have since either been disabled or removed.