GTR ticket office changes

[philjo]

I see the BBC now mention this though only relating to Southern stations.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35577559

Ticket offices across the Southern rail network could close or have their hours cuts under plans to modernise, the operator has said.

Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR), which runs Southern and Gatwick Express, said more passengers were buying tickets online or using smartcard technology.

The Campaign for Better Transport said people needed ticket offices because of the complex ticketing system.

The plans affect 51 stations in London, Sussex and Surrey.

Under the proposals, ticket office staff will be moved on to the concourse to be "station hosts" who can sell tickets.

Some station ticket windows will close and others will only be staffed at peak times.

A GTR spokesman said: "Where sales from a ticket office are low, we will bring staff out from the ticket office on to the concourse as station hosts, where they will be readily available to help with ticket purchasing and offer assistance to passengers."

He said all affected stations would be staffed for longer.

Similar plans on the London Underground led to a prolonged industrial dispute.

Steven Joseph, from the Campaign for Better Transport, said: "It's one thing to do this on the London Underground where the fare structure is relatively simple and London Underground have done that in London.

"It's another thing to do it when you've got this incredibly complex fare structure.

"It depends on how it works out in practice, I think we'll want to see what happens."

Southern said no ticket offices would close immediately and proposals would go through consultation, be discussed with London TravelWatch and Transport Focus and require approval from the Department for Transport.

The rail firm said it was talking to trade unions and there would be no compulsory redundancies.

The company runs rail services between London and the south coast, through Sussex, Surrey and parts of Kent and Hampshire.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Closing at 13:40 today!

https://flic.kr/p/DGQYq3

Here's the front of the station, showing that it is supposed to close at 22:15:

https://flic.kr/p/E1HBKx

It is really quite cunning. Advertise long opening hours but actually close early. The fact that the "staff shortages" are displayed on a permanent sign is almost satirical.

Does wind me up when people put the space in the wrong place when quoting London phone numbers. Especially on official signage.

 

[Skimble19]

Not sure if it's been mentioned on here yet, but effectively on GN this will result in the Gateline (RCO) and Booking Office teams being merged, and under the current proposals, a number of position losses. One station in particular will go from 6 RCOs and 4 Booking Office to "6.5" Station Hosts, who will be responsible for manning the gate line and selling tickets 24/7 and peak hour booking office staffing.. However, GTR are yet to provide a roster of how this will work (it won't).

The supposed benefits to customers of the station being staffed longer and facilities being open later are also lies, as the station is staffed 24 hours already. It's already being suggested that the hosts may be hiding away somewhere operating the gate line remotely after 8pm, so not selling tickets, meanwhile the platform staff will still be wandering around all night long as they do now.. The same applies to most of the stations selected on the GN route.

Still, what's more amusing is that the people who come up with this scheme haven't even bothered to go out and look at stations, and when it was asked how they would implement this at stations like Welwyn Garden City and St Neots were totally baffled as they had no idea of the station layouts..

 

[DelayRepay]

Closing at 13:40 today!

https://flic.kr/p/DGQYq3

Here's the front of the station, showing that it is supposed to close at 22:15:

https://flic.kr/p/E1HBKx

It is really quite cunning. Advertise long opening hours but actually close early. The fact that the "staff shortages" are displayed on a permanent sign is almost satirical.

This company doesn't have enough drivers. They constantly tell us it takes over a year to train a new driver but they're trying really, really hard.

Does it also take over a year to train a ticket office clerk? :roll:

 

[bb21]

Does it also take over a year to train a ticket office clerk? :roll:

Tweet them and ask. I would be interested in what they say.

 

[jon0844]

This company doesn't have enough drivers. They constantly tell us it takes over a year to train a new driver but they're trying really, really hard.

Does it also take over a year to train a ticket office clerk? :roll:

When someone at a station cannot even do a season ticket renewal at the end of December, and tells you to come back in an hour (when someone else will be on) or do it in London, you have to wonder if they get any training*.

I wasn't exactly asking for a complex bunch of split tickets, or tickets with weird restrictions... just a straight 'can I renew this for a year please' and handing over the current one.

For all intents and purposes on that day (until he finished shift) the ticket office might as well have been closed and unstaffed!

Tweet them and ask. I would be interested in what they say.

Yeah, please do. That would be most amusing. If only to see how they'd use some standard cut and paste response that would totally miss the point....


* This person wasn't agency - they've been there some time. I suspect he just didn't want to do it.

 

[talldave]

....
Yeah, please do. That would be most amusing. If only to see how they'd use some standard cut and paste response that would totally miss the point....

They will just ignore it.

 

[jon0844]

They will just ignore it.

True. They are quite selective about responding to things. When it was FCC, they usually responded to everything - good or bad.

Companies deserve credit for not sweeping issues under the carpet. Govia seems to be one that thinks problems can go away by ignoring them.

Our local paper has now done a story about the planned changes and just gone with what Govia said, which implies more staff on stations - but not mentioning the removal of many posts and the combining of roles.

Not that I'd expect local papers to have the resources to investigate, and for example find that many roles aren't even filled now due to staff shortages, but the story made it sound like it was a wonderful thing.

 

[fandroid]

Nothing has ever stood still in the world of employment, and there's no reason why it should on the railways. RMT should be looking after its members by helping them to cope with change, even providing support in adapting to jobs outside the railways! The members may be able to read between the lines, but all this 'going to hell in a handcart', and 'we'll fight to the death' stuff is downright tedious and does no-one any favours. Perhaps they could start by asking passengers what they would like ( and what they would be willing to pay for!)

 

[jon0844]

Ticket machines and online services should be capable of doing whatever the ticket offices can currently do. If I get asked to go into King's Cross, I won't be happy - especially if I'd have to pay for a ticket in and out.

And if staff could do it on new terminals, what happens when they're on the gate issuing a penalty fare and trying to diffuse a possible heated situation?

I accept change, but Govia is doing the changing before it has made everything ready!

 

[JamesTT]

For Priv tickets would it work to create a staff travel section on the company intranet site for staff to log in to and purchase discount tickets?

For Rovers and Rangers how about a section on TOC public site for buying those online?

 

[paul1609]

Priv travel should be restricted to contactless that way the benefit in kind tax can be automatically deducted and forwarded to HMRC.

 

[bb21]

Priv travel should be restricted to contactless that way the benefit in kind tax can be automatically deducted and forwarded to HMRC.

I believe someone has explained this quite thoroughly in one of the threads. There is no "benefit in kind" tax as priv travel facilities cost the TOCs nothing.

Edited to add:

Found it. See posts by Elecman.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Blimey, there's a lot of pessimism here.....
Let's actually see what happens with the first few stations. Pretty much everything mentioned above could be done without the need to use a ticket office, it just needs processes updating. Why should you have to queue at a ticket office to buy a Season Ticket, or a Railcard, or make reservations? The staff being more visible and out on the concourse sounds like quite a good idea for a lot of people.

 

[Skimble19]

Must admit I find it somewhat amusing, and at the same time annoying, that the articles being peddled by the local rags are actually going along with the nonsense being sprouted about stations being staffed longer and facilities being available for longer.. I should point out I'm referring to articles about places like Hitchin, Letchworth, Royston, Stevenage, Welwyn, Hatfield, Potters Bar etc where they are already staffed 24 hours a day, 7 days a week - I would love to know how they intend to increase that, but sadly whenever anyone questions it they're unsurprisingly ignored..!

 

[jon0844]

Yes, I did think it funny that nobody at the paper seemed aware of the stations being manned from start to finish already, thus printing the Govia statement as great news.

I eagerly await the forthcoming software update for the ticket machines to do everything the current ticket office systems can do. Especially given there are two different systems that need updating, each with their own user interfaces and support structures...

 

[Haywain]

Yes, I did think it funny that nobody at the paper seemed aware of the stations being manned from start to finish already, thus printing the Govia statement as great news.

I eagerly await the forthcoming software update for the ticket machines to do everything the current ticket office systems can do. Especially given there are two different systems that need updating, each with their own user interfaces and support structures...

Your determination to see this solely in the context of the existing ticket vending machines is admirable, but perhaps you should consider that there may be other solutions in development that allow the full range of service to be provided without needing to be behind a counter. After all, technology has developed to a degree that pretty much everything we do on a PC can now be done on a much more portable tablet.

 

[pitdiver]

Further to my earlier posts, I used Flitwick station yesterday and realised that if one needs to get a ticket from a TVM you must enter Compulsory Ticket Area ie the platform If the side entrance is shut how will you get to the TVMs, through the ticket office that will be barriered Then come off the platform then go into the Ticket Office and through the barriers. This will be fun. Furthermore for those of you who know Flitwick how is GTR going to deal with access from the bridge. Shut the entrance and make everybody walk along Steppingly Rd and down the slope?

 

[bb21]

Does Flitwick have a CTA? Didn't think any station on the Thameslink network has a CTA.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Your determination to see this solely in the context of the existing ticket vending machines is admirable, but perhaps you should consider that there may be other solutions in development that allow the full range of service to be provided without needing to be behind a counter.

But those developments will require GoVia to invest money in new equipment, which is something they've never done before. The main issue is security: if the ticket office counter is replaced with a bloke with a tablet and an upgraded Advantix, what happens to the cash? Most GoVia TVMs already only take cards because of the theft risk from TVMs containing cash.

Of course what will probably happen in reality is that the service offered will be worse, the clerk will assist with the TVM but the TVM won't take cash and it won't take Rail Travel Vouchers. That's pretty much what has happened on London Midland, with the associated problem that it's hit and miss whether an RPI will sell you a ticket or choose to make your life extremely awkward if you don't use the card-only TVM.

 

[Sleepy]

But those developments will require GoVia to invest money in new equipment, which is something they've never done before. The main issue is security: if the ticket office counter is replaced with a bloke with a tablet and an upgraded Advantix, what happens to the cash? Most GoVia TVMs already only take cards because of the theft risk from TVMs containing cash.

Of course what will probably happen in reality is that the service offered will be worse, the clerk will assist with the TVM but the TVM won't take cash and it won't take Rail Travel Vouchers. That's pretty much what has happened on London Midland, with the associated problem that it's hit and miss whether an RPI will sell you a ticket or choose to make your life extremely awkward if you don't use the card-only TVM.

So what happens in LM land now if you only have cash when T/O is shut - thought it is 100% guard operated stock ?

 

[Spamcan81]

Have I missed something or has Arlesey been missed from the GN stations affected?

 

[Haywain]

But those developments will require GoVia to invest money in new equipment, which is something they've never done before. The main issue is security: if the ticket office counter is replaced with a bloke with a tablet and an upgraded Advantix, what happens to the cash? Most GoVia TVMs already only take cards because of the theft risk from TVMs containing cash.

Of course what will probably happen in reality is that the service offered will be worse, the clerk will assist with the TVM but the TVM won't take cash and it won't take Rail Travel Vouchers. That's pretty much what has happened on London Midland, with the associated problem that it's hit and miss whether an RPI will sell you a ticket or choose to make your life extremely awkward if you don't use the card-only TVM.

I don't know any more than you do what will actually happen. I am merely putting the case that many of the objections being raised are based on the supposition that only the existing technology will be available. There is the potential for other solution to be used to overcome all of the objections, and it remains to be seen what will actually happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So what happens in LM land now if you only have cash when T/O is shut - thought it is 100% guard operated stock ?

Most of the time you either pay at the Euston barrier or you get away with it. Very few guards seem to be bothered to do revenue; it appears it is either officially optional or de-facto optional. And they laid off a load of RPIs.

 

[Haywain]

Further to my earlier posts, I used Flitwick station yesterday and realised that if one needs to get a ticket from a TVM you must enter Compulsory Ticket Area ie the platform If the side entrance is shut how will you get to the TVMs, through the ticket office that will be barriered Then come off the platform then go into the Ticket Office and through the barriers. This will be fun. Furthermore for those of you who know Flitwick how is GTR going to deal with access from the bridge. Shut the entrance and make everybody walk along Steppingly Rd and down the slope?

Has it been announced that Flitwick will be getting ticket barriers? If it does, restricting access from the bridge would seem to be a sensible solution that will make ticketless travel a bit more difficult.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So what happens in LM land now if you only have cash when T/O is shut - thought it is 100% guard operated stock ?

London Midland told me to buy on board or at the other end. I got this in writing after witnessing an RPI get very stroppy with someone who hadn't used a card-only TVM. If you're going into London this means stop off at the window at Euston; if you're going pretty much anywhere else, especially after about 1930, it means you don't ever get a chance to pay.

 

[jon0844]

So shareholders should be chuffed to know that revenue will fall as a result of these changes. Or does GTR care when it doesn't get the fare revenue?

I know technology can fix anything - but I'm convinced the changes will come until after the changes are made.

 

[Haywain]

So shareholders should be chuffed to know that revenue will fall as a result of these changes. Or does GTR care when it doesn't get the fare revenue?

I know technology can fix anything - but I'm convinced the changes will come until after the changes are made.

GTR is a management contract franchise, with the DfT taking revenue risk.

 

[ooo]

Has it been announced that Flitwick will be getting ticket barriers? If it does, restricting access from the bridge would seem to be a sensible solution that will make ticketless travel a bit more difficult.

Flitwick has ticket barriers in place, however I believe that they are not in use at the moment.

 

[jon0844]

GTR is a management contract franchise, with the DfT taking revenue risk.

So the DfT, and therefore us, will lose out.