GTR ticket office changes

[Clip]

Has anybody actually worked on a station on their own at say 2200hrs on a Friday evening with a possibility of carrying around a quantity of cash as some are suggesting. .

Yes, yes I have when It comes to emptying TVMs and then transporting that back to the booking office to cash up.

Apart from the priv I don't see the urge or reason to do what you request that you just couldn't do online and be safe and secure with those transactions until you can get to buy your priv through the normal channels at another time. Seems you invented a scenario to prove a point and with now being told that the booking office closes at 19:30 it wasn't a good one to invent was it?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yes, yes I have when It comes to emptying TVMs and then transporting that back to the booking office to cash up...

Do you not have cash regulations in your neck of the woods?

I think there is a difference between that and standing outside for an extended period every night.

I've seen managers talk about removing ticket office sales point glass on single manned stations because "studies show customers react better to an open enviroment". Yeah, so do criminals.....

....Apart from the priv I don't see the urge or reason to do what you request that you just couldn't do online and be safe and secure with those transactions until you can get to buy your priv through the normal channels at another time....

So really we don't need the hosts then? Why not keep the current hours and and let everyone outside of those times buy online or from the TVMs?

.... Seems you invented a scenario to prove a point and with now being told that the booking office closes at 19:30 it wasn't a good one to invent was it?

Actually I think it exposes a point that is very much worth considering.

 

[deltic]

Would staff need to handle cash? Would they not operate like London Underground staff and just help people use the ticket machines or take vouchers etc?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Would staff need to handle cash? Would they not operate like London Underground staff and just help people use the ticket machines or take vouchers etc?

To quote GTR....

"....1. Stations where we sell fewer than 12 tickets an hour: here we propose to bring staff out from behind the ticket office windows and on to the concourse where they’re needed most, to provide assistance and help sell tickets from ticket machines and their own handheld devices.

2. Stations where we sell more than 12 tickets an hour but where most passengers still use ticket machines and other ways to pay such as Oyster, contactless and smartcards: here we propose to relocate the ticket selling equipment to a station hosting point so the staff are available on the concourse to provide assistance but still able to sell tickets for longer than ticket offices are currently open.

3. Stations where we still rely heavily on ticket offices in the peak: Here we propose to staff the ticket office window at peak times but we will also position ticket selling equipment at a station hosting point so the staff are available on the concourse...."

So their intention is to have the "hosts" sell tickets. They can't really do that if they only accept vouchers as vouchers are rarely the exact price of a ticket that is needed and don't offer any change. But even then the cost of providing the equipment for that one random transaction is likely to be more than the revenue extracted from it.

 

[Mojo]

Would staff need to handle cash? Would they not operate like London Underground staff and just help people use the ticket machines or take vouchers etc?

LU staff still handle cash, except on Underground stations (not the ex-Silverlink stations) the machines which take cash are all rear-loading and are serviced from within a secure suite rather than the approach adopted by the Tocs whereby machines are emptied in the public area.

 

[pitdiver]

Yes, yes I have when It comes to emptying TVMs and then transporting that back to the booking office to cash up.

Apart from the priv I don't see the urge or reason to do what you request that you just couldn't do online and be safe and secure with those transactions until you can get to buy your priv through the normal channels at another time. Seems you invented a scenario to prove a point and with now being told that the booking office closes at 19:30 it wasn't a good one to invent was it?

I know the booking office closes at 1930 hrs I live in Flitwick and use the station regularly. My point is that GTR are going to have staff present on the station from first to last train. I assume by that I should be able to obtain any type of ticket at any time of night or day as there are not really any first or last trains on Thameslink. So theoretically I should be able to buy any ticket with any form of payment whenever I want. If an organisation offers a near 24hr service I expect all facilities to be available when I want to use them .
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To quote GTR....

"....1. Stations where we sell fewer than 12 tickets an hour: here we propose to bring staff out from behind the ticket office windows and on to the concourse where they’re needed most, to provide assistance and help sell tickets from ticket machines and their own handheld devices.

2. Stations where we sell more than 12 tickets an hour but where most passengers still use ticket machines and other ways to pay such as Oyster, contactless and smartcards: here we propose to relocate the ticket selling equipment to a station hosting point so the staff are available on the concourse to provide assistance but still able to sell tickets for longer than ticket offices are currently open.

3. Stations where we still rely heavily on ticket offices in the peak: Here we propose to staff the ticket office window at peak times but we will also position ticket selling equipment at a station hosting point so the staff are available on the concourse...."

So their intention is to have the "hosts" sell tickets. They can't really do that if they only accept vouchers as vouchers are rarely the exact price of a ticket that is needed and don't offer any change. But even then the cost of providing the equipment for that one random transaction is likely to be more than the revenue extracted from it.

At Flitwick the TVMs are out in the open actually on the platform at Harlington it is at the front of the station. So I would love to be the "Host" assisting customers at about 2330 in the middle of January at either of these stations. I'm sure these new accommodation arrangements are going to do wonders for staff morale.

 

[infobleep]

LU staff still handle cash, except on Underground stations (not the ex-Silverlink stations) the machines which take cash are all rear-loading and are serviced from within a secure suite rather than the approach adopted by the Tocs whereby machines are emptied in the public area.

Does anyone know what currently happens at Harrow, which covers both Underground, National Rail and Overground?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Does anyone know what currently happens at Harrow, which covers both Underground, National Rail and Overground?

Harrow-on-the-Hill closed some time ago. Harrow & Wealdstone (along with the other joint LU/LO stations from Queen's Park Northwards) remains open.

 

[Mojo]

Does anyone know what currently happens at Harrow, which covers both Underground, National Rail and Overground?

Harrow & Wealdstone is an ex Silverlink station and has Scheidt + Bachmann TVMs which are serviced in the same way as the Tocs do.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There has been a response to the local publicity in Epsom from a Disability Alliance Network boss pointing out that there is a large number of blind and partly sighted people in Epsom*; these people depend more heavily on ticket offices than most other people do.



*There is a large specialist sheltered accomodation place in town, Swail House.

 

[Haywain]

There has been a response to the local publicity in Epsom from a Disability Alliance Network boss pointing out that there is a large number of blind and partly sighted people in Epsom*; these people depend more heavily on ticket offices than most other people do.

But what they actually rely on is human assistance, which does not have to be behind a counter.

 

[jon0844]

I assume this is something to do with "The Key" ITSO smartcard being rolled out?

The Key is NOWHERE near ready for the big time. It might have been introduced some four years ago, but it has so many issues that GTR must have having a laugh.

Of course, Oyster must have reduced ticket sales inside zone 6

Ive been saying this for a while but there have been some posters on ehre who have heralded the age of the smartcard as the solution to our complicated fares structure without a thought about the staff members jobs.

I've been a supporter of smartcards for some time, and sadly it's inevitable and ticket sales the traditional way are going to decrease in time. Just as happened in London.

There are other factors, including poor training of agency staff by train operators trying to save a buck, which pushes people to TVMs, and when people can't get on with them, they book online.

Eventually people will book online in most cases, use a smartcard or CPC, and the rest who have no idea what to buy or how things work will be standing confused at stations looking for staff.

The problem is, like getting rid of shop staff for self checkouts and all the other ways people are being replaced, there's not much we can do about it.

Having everyone deciding to queue up at the one ticket window open at some stations, when someone is asking 101 questions, to show support won't help. When there are queues at Hatfield now (and people don't always know to use the TVM outside) you don't see gateline staff offering to queue bust. Maybe they're told not to, but it probably leads to the general public not having much sympathy for staff, even though it's a management issue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure that, with enough investment, hand held ticket machines could replicate ticket office machines. But at the moment they don't.

Having seen how quick it was to add my Gold Card discount to my Oyster at a London ticket machine (after the staff logged in and selected from the 'staff' menu) I do believe we could have TVMs upgraded to do whatever can be done at a ticket office.

But I'd argue that it would need more than a software update as some machines (even if they look the same externally) are far too slow and it would mean upgrading hardware too.

One of the latest machines with a fast capacitive touchscreen, running all new software, could work wonders for passengers and staff. Trying to get one with an old PC inside, a resistive screen that is dead in various zones, and pauses frequently for no reason (perhaps a HDD issue) would NOT work.

I bet they wouldn't upgrade the hardware so for that reason I'm somewhat scared about the impact.

 

[cjp]

The problem is, like getting rid of shop staff for self checkouts and all the other ways people are being replaced, there's not much we can do about it.

Never use them as I am not paid to be a checkout operator. and there is no discount to for self service.

And I am not alone as I see such self checkout machines idle with queues at the check outs

If am not serves in timely fashion I dump my shopping and walk out. Rarely are things essential to have then and there.

Not sure that approach will work with ticket offices though but in shops, where there are alternatives, it lets them measure how much they have lost.

 

[Hadders]

Never use them as I am not paid to be a checkout operator. and there is no discount to for self service.

And I am not alone as I see such self checkout machines idle with queues at the check outs

If am not serves in timely fashion I dump my shopping and walk out. Rarely are things essential to have then and there.

Not sure that approach will work with ticket offices though but in shops, where there are alternatives, it lets them measure how much they have lost.

Do you withdraw cash from ATMs or do you still cash a cheque at the bank counter?

 

[jon0844]

And I am not alone as I see such self checkout machines idle with queues at the check outs

If am not serves in timely fashion I dump my shopping and walk out. Rarely are things essential to have then and there.

Not sure that approach will work with ticket offices though but in shops, where there are alternatives, it lets them measure how much they have lost.

Maybe it's a generation thing, as all the students at Herts Uni mostly go to Asda and then go for the self checkouts. They've got two types; the traditional ones and a fair few with belts for larger shops. And each are well used.

Staffed checkouts can actually have people sitting idle looking bored - and yet there are queues for the self checkouts!

It seems the younger generation have no issue with helping get rid of staff.

There's a noticeable difference at Tesco and Sainsbury's, while more people are starting to use the hand scanners (which Asda is unique in not offering). I prefer these as you can keep track of your spend throughout, see special offers and pack your bags ready to transfer quickly to the car.

 

[amateur]

Never use them as I am not paid to be a checkout operator. and there is no discount to for self service.

And I am not alone as I see such self checkout machines idle with queues at the check outs

If am not serves in timely fashion I dump my shopping and walk out. Rarely are things essential to have then and there.

Not sure that approach will work with ticket offices though but in shops, where there are alternatives, it lets them measure how much they have lost.

sometimes people choose to go to a checkout because they are buying alcohol, and know it shall be a hassle on the self service checkout

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Do you withdraw cash from ATMs or do you still cash a cheque at the bank counter?

I don't know about cjp, but I certainly do still draw money out over the counter. Every time. Never used an ATM at all.

 

[FenMan]

sometimes people choose to go to a checkout because they are buying alcohol, and know it shall be a hassle on the self service checkout

I know this is off topic, but could not resist. If self-checkout is all it's cracked up to be, why do Aldi and Lidl only have staffed checkouts?

 

[cjp]

Do you withdraw cash from ATMs or do you still cash a cheque at the bank counter?

I uses a card at the counter to get the notes I want - usually fifties or fivers - which a machine cannot yield.
As for the staff in banks approaching people like me in a queue wanting to lead me over to a machine, let the Judas goats get behind a counter rather than accelerate the fall in employment of bank tellers
Compare how they have decided to get rid of booking offices. Use it or loose it.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I know this is off topic, but could not resist. If self-checkout is all it's cracked up to be, why do Aldi and Lidl only have staffed checkouts?

Because running a staffed checkout the same way they do in mainland Europe (i.e. put stuff back in the trolley as it's scanned and have a dedicated packing area) is blisteringly fast. Plus the discount chains don't have dedicated checkout operators, they spend the rest of the time stocking, etc.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Never use them as I am not paid to be a checkout operator. and there is no discount to for self service.

And I am not alone as I see such self checkout machines idle with queues at the check outs

If am not serves in timely fashion I dump my shopping and walk out. Rarely are things essential to have then and there.

Not sure that approach will work with ticket offices though but in shops, where there are alternatives, it lets them measure how much they have lost.

People who just dump their shopping are the worst kind of person, as you're taking staff away from the already busy checkouts to do perishable put-backs. Rarely is time so essential that you can't wait another few minutes.

 

[jon0844]

sometimes people choose to go to a checkout because they are buying alcohol, and know it shall be a hassle on the self service checkout

Asda, to its credit, have lots of people on hand to quickly authorise things like this. Tesco is the opposite with too few staff, and staff openly apologising for the lack of staff, admitting they're meant to have more people working to cover both self checkout and the self scanner terminals, but for whatever reason they don't have them.

It's perhaps a good example of how an idea isn't necessarily good or bad, but depends on the individual circumstances. Hence why I think TfL could close ticket offices but national rail stations can't, or shouldn't. At least not yet.

I know this is off topic, but could not resist. If self-checkout is all it's cracked up to be, why do Aldi and Lidl only have staffed checkouts?

I do wonder why they don't introduce them, but suspect there's a hefty cost to do so (including the backend systems) as well as the need for staff to monitor, increased security etc.

In my Aldi, staff regularly come and go to clear queues that back up beyond the sign, then immediately close and they're back to putting out stock. Plus the system of having people pack later means they scan at full speed, rather than Tesco etc telling staff to scan slower if they see goods piling up.

But, there's no reason why Aldi and Lidl won't one day decide to implement this. Perhaps when RFID tags are stupidly cheap, and people can just walk through a reader that scans an entire trolley/basket in one go.

Edit: I see that was mentioned earlier too!

People who just dump their shopping are the worst kind of person, as you're taking staff away from the already busy checkouts to do perishable put-backs. Rarely is time so essential that you can't wait another few minutes.

Staff are only Judas goats...

 

[radamfi]

Are ticket offices in the GTR area actually open when they are advertised to? At Three Bridges the ticket office is supposed to be open until 2215, after hours were extended after one of the franchise handovers, but when I was commuting daily I often found it closed when I arrived back around 1900. This was before the Key was extended to there so I gave up trying to renew my season ticket there and got it at Victoria instead. I changed to the Key at first opportunity.

The really funny thing is that they have a *permanent* sign on the wall next to the ticket office windows explaining that the ticket office will close early that day where they write in felt tip pen the time of that day's closing time.

 

[bb21]

Perhaps you could make a note every time this happens and send the list to DfT?

 

[pitdiver]

I work in a supermarket on checkouts. In my store ALL new staff for the last 3 years are trained to operate the checkouts. Those who are not dedicated Checkout staff have thheir own jobs to do but will operate the till as and when necessary.
A large number of customer like going to the normal checkouts as we may be the only people they interact with so they like to speak to somebody. Whereas others are quite happy to go so a self service till or a scan and shop type till

 

[ItchyRsole]

I've worked at most stations on TL route from Bedford down to KTN.

Harpenden is very busy all day, especially off peak. Hardly had a moment to yourself on a shift there which is odd, and on the other hand, I've worked at Hendon, done a 7 hour shift many times & never sold more than 50 tickets yet I can't see that on the list?!

Logic?

 

[radamfi]

Perhaps you could make a note every time this happens and send the list to DfT?

Closing at 13:40 today!

https://flic.kr/p/DGQYq3

Here's the front of the station, showing that it is supposed to close at 22:15:

https://flic.kr/p/E1HBKx

It is really quite cunning. Advertise long opening hours but actually close early. The fact that the "staff shortages" are displayed on a permanent sign is almost satirical.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are ticket offices in the GTR area actually open when they are advertised to?

I very much doubt it. That's a favourite trick of GoVia on their London Midland franchise, I'm yet to see* any of Apsley, Hemel Hempstead or Berkhamsted ticket offices stay open for the full time they are advertised to do so. There was a period in 2014 when Apsley station didn't open at all for over a fortnight, allegedly due to "staff shortages".

*Not quite true. I did see Apsley station stay open until 1940 once. They were doing an RPI sting. Just fancy that, eh?

You can guess how many stuffs were given when I complained to the DfT...

 

[maniacmartin]

Purley is often closed in the evenings when it should be open. In fact, based on my unscientific survey, around 7pm is is more likely to be closed than open.

 

[jon0844]

Closing at 13:40 today!

https://flic.kr/p/DGQYq3

Here's the front of the station, showing that it is supposed to close at 22:15:

https://flic.kr/p/E1HBKx

It is really quite cunning. Advertise long opening hours but actually close early. The fact that the "staff shortages" are displayed on a permanent sign is almost satirical.

That's damn cheeky. Given how worn out the sign is, how can the DfT not show any interest when it's clear early closing is very much the norm. The sign outside may as well as be removed.